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Author Topic: The space battle AI is absolutely ruining this game for me. Tips, please?  (Read 4497 times)

Grievous69

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Re: The space battle AI is absolutely ruining this game for me. Tips, please?
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2022, 01:14:29 PM »

Yeah but the whole point of the ship is unmatched firepower at long range. Advanced targeting core boosts all non missile weapons range by 100%, meaning HSA reducing BASE range is very very bad here. Instead of usual 2000 range a Tach lance would have, here you have 1400 and that's not counting Unstable injector. That trade off is not worth on the slowest ship in the game. Either commit fully to a sniper build or make a brawler fit with Plasma cannons or Autopulse lasers. This Paragon will always struggle against tough opponents.

EDIT: It appears the range calculations are wrong but it honestly doesn't change much. I know HSA was nerfed enough that it's definitely not worth on the most expensive ship in the game.
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DirectionsToL3Please

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Re: The space battle AI is absolutely ruining this game for me. Tips, please?
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2022, 01:26:15 PM »

That trade off is not worth on the slowest ship in the game.
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Thaago

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Re: The space battle AI is absolutely ruining this game for me. Tips, please?
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2022, 01:27:24 PM »

True, but burn drive is a thing.
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DaShiv

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Re: The space battle AI is absolutely ruining this game for me. Tips, please?
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2022, 02:04:51 PM »

Because it's a short-range brawler, I didn't worry too much about shield killing; by the time anything gets close to the Paragon, the other ships in the fleet have stripped shields.  I very much built the fleet to work as a group, which is sort of what this thread was all about; my inability to keep the fleet together because the game AI is so hell-bent on sending ships out on their own.

If the design concept of the game is every ship needs to stand on its own then a) that's terrible design and b) good to know, I'll stop playing and stop posting about my problems, since the game won't ever make sense to me.

It should be the other way around - the Paragon with its superior range is better suited for hitting shields before enemy ships enter the range of your other ships. Hence the others' suggestions for weapons that can output significant hard flux damage at range, such as Heavy Needlers, HVD, Autopulse Lasers, and Plasma Cannons. Of course, all these weapons have varying other performance considerations, such as flux usage, performance vs armor, etc.

HSA (in its current iteration, in RC6) actually decreases a beam's base range to less than that of comparable weapons, which is why people are telling you it's a poor choice for Paragons.

Ships don't necessarily have to be self-sufficient, but they should be assigned roles that are synergistic with their strengths and weaknesses and outfitted accordingly.

I swear every time there's a post with someone saying AI is broken and bad and can't do a thing in combat, it's ALWAYS due to people throwing random stuff on a ship or using autofit. There really should be a quick course or tutorial in game that's mandatory, that explains how to make a decent build in general. That's the single hardest thing in the game with a crazy steep learning curve, and imo the biggest reason why new players get frustrated and quit the game since they think it's too hard (I mean it is honestly).

Agreed. Often when people complain about poor AI performance, it's because the AI is struggling to do what it can with the loadout that the player has assigned it, and a lot of newer players also have little understanding of issues like weapon range and weapon group assignments when implementing their loadouts. A basic sanity check for loadouts is a great first diagnostic step when it comes to addressing AI performance issues. That said, I'm not sure if there's a better way to understand loadouts other than a lot of trial and error in the simulator.
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Grievous69

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Re: The space battle AI is absolutely ruining this game for me. Tips, please?
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2022, 02:19:20 PM »

That said, I'm not sure if there's a better way to understand loadouts other than a lot of trial and error in the simulator.
Well that's the most detailed approach and one from which you will learn the quickest about the game's ins and outs. But what portion of the new player are willing to go through that? I for sure know not everyone is prepared to spend hours and hours on refit screen + simulator (which is my obsession lol). Just a quick pop up window when player first interacts with the refit screen, everything being in bold of course:
"Please try to put weapons of similar ranges that are used for assault
Keep total weapon flux at 1.5x of the ship's dissipation at MAX
Mix kinetic and HE damage types if ship uses ballistics"
Idk if there's anything else so crucial since so much stuff depends on specific ship and playstyle. Another idea would be a step by step tutorial ship refit where each step is explained, but maybe that's too much hand holding. I just want new players to have a frame of reference for what is a "basic" loadout that can work for AI.
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Thaago

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Re: The space battle AI is absolutely ruining this game for me. Tips, please?
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2022, 02:56:56 PM »

...
Keep total weapon flux at 1.5x of the ship's dissipation at MAX
...

This one is a bit divisive and it really depends on the weapon layout of the ship. I'd rank 1.5x as a good spot to shoot for for most ships, with some being perfectly fine up to above 2x. If we're talking about loadout warnings, I think a "Non-pd weapons below dissipation" warning would be just as useful, as too little gun firepower is arguably worse than too much, if less common.
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Linnis

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Re: The space battle AI is absolutely ruining this game for me. Tips, please?
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2022, 03:54:45 PM »

You know, I played this game for more than 10k hours at this point. I still don't know how weapon group REALLY affect the AI. I just hit the auto group button every time
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Null Ganymede

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Re: The space battle AI is absolutely ruining this game for me. Tips, please?
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2022, 04:01:25 PM »

I think each weapon group can only fire at a single target at a time, right? So if you've got say two broadsides on a Conquest, if 4 larges share a weapon group it can't fire in both directions at once?
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Thaago

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Re: The space battle AI is absolutely ruining this game for me. Tips, please?
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2022, 04:53:01 PM »

You know, I played this game for more than 10k hours at this point. I still don't know how weapon group REALLY affect the AI. I just hit the auto group button every time

The AI uses the weapon groups the same way the player does! There are a few specific notes on its behavior though.

The AI can toggle weapon groups on and off autofire, and does so to manage flux. A group in autofire on an AI ship acts exactly the same as a group on autofire for the player ship: Guns fire at their own individual aimpoints (important for different projectile speeds) at the currently selected target if it is in arc/range, or at any available ship/fighter/missile if the target is not in arc or there is no target. AFAIK the AI prioritizes keeping weapon groups with PD online even at high flux, but will turn off other groups based in part on their flux consumption, starting with the higher flux groups. I don't think damage types play a role in this decision, but that comes into play later for manual groups.

The AI also selects a manual fire group, just like the player does, and aims all guns in that group at a single invisible cursor point. This is bad because guns of mixed velocities will have many misses. The AI then fires this group by 'clicking' fire, just like a player would. For turrets this will only fire the weapons if the aim point is within arc of the turret. For hardpoints, it will fire the weapon on every click no matter what (this is the usual player manual fire group behavior). This is the source of the 'not firing in both directions' problems Null Ganymede mentions: if the weapons were on autofire they would be fine. But if the AI takes manual control then, just like the player, the guns on one side of a conquest will always be out of arc and not fire while the others are being clicked. In my opinion about 85% of 'wtf is the AI doing with its weapons?' moments come from it using a manually selected firing group the wrong way, and I've suggested in the past for the AI to never use manual control for anything but missiles (like many players do).

However, it turns out that the manual group selection is good for one thing: it is how the AI tries to tailor its offense vs the enemy defense. When the enemy has its shields up, it will try to select and fire kinetic weapons and fire them, and when the shield is down it will try to select and fire HE. I say 'try' to because the selection often gets stuck on missiles and doesn't work right. But it can still be worth it to have a kinetic group and an HE group if you want the AI to try and match its fire at the enemy by type. When high on flux, the AI often turns off all autofire except PD and uses one manual fire group for offense.

Some weapons, missiles especially, the AI will only ever fire from its manually selected group, and it often gets 'stuck' 'thinking' about firing them. It detects there is possibly an opportunity to do and then waits for the correct moment: but at the same time, its then not firing other manual fire only groups. This leads to having multiple weapon groups of missiles on a ship often not working correctly and seeming like they never fire.

The AI treats alternating and linked weapon groups exactly as the player does. This includes cycling to the next weapon every time an alternating group is selected, which leads to imbalances in missiles ammo reserves between different mounts when it does something like 'fire', 'select a different group','select missile group again' ending back on the first missile which has less ammo then the second.

So, as basic tips for weapon groups: group PD up together. Group weapons facing in the same direction together in case the AI manually selects them. Maybe group weapons by damage type, maybe not, depending on if you want the AI to fire them all together or try to detect whats best. Put all missiles in linked fire mode unless you have a very good reason not to.
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Astasia

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Re: The space battle AI is absolutely ruining this game for me. Tips, please?
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2022, 05:31:10 PM »

It wasn't until I started using a couple Odysseys in a fleet and paying attention to what they were doing that I realized just how bad the weapon group auto-assign can be. Having two large turrets sit there and do nothing with multiple ships they could be firing out while the AI tries to manual aim and shoot with a large turret on the opposite side of the ship really makes it clear how important it can be to set those up yourself. Combat became a lot easier all around after that lesson.
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Histidine

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Re: The space battle AI is absolutely ruining this game for me. Tips, please?
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2022, 05:51:12 PM »

[edit: fix a wrong term, clarify one part]

Suggestions for the game:

The auto-assign on adding a new weapon (as opposed to assigning all weapons at once in the weapon group screen) could be smarter and put the weapon in a suitable group instead of just the first empty group it finds. As it is, if I just toss a bunch of weapons on a new hull and forget to do the weapon groups, they'll be horrendous and I'll get annoyed every time I take it into battle, plan to fix it after the battle ends, then promptly forget till the next battle.*

Alternatively (though I don't like this), the game could nag the player more aggressively. "These weapon groups look like nonsense, would you like to redo them?" (How this would be determined I'm not entirely sure; it could check for similar weapon types being spread across multiple groups)? Or the existing weapon group config reminder could come up every time a weapon is added, instead of only the first time per playthrough.

*this is why weapon groups should be reconfigurable from within combat
« Last Edit: January 05, 2022, 08:35:47 PM by Histidine »
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