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Author Topic: Why HE vs Armor, and Kinetic vs Shields?  (Read 2116 times)

crackinthekraken

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Why HE vs Armor, and Kinetic vs Shields?
« on: December 29, 2021, 11:44:46 PM »

In real life, HE is considered relatively ineffective against armor, and kinetic penetrators are considered optimal against armor.  You can observe this phenomenon in the evolution of tank weapons and tank protection.  Why is it the opposite in Starsector?

I've been trying to come up with a good explanation why this is, but I can't convince myself.  Do any of you know a good lore reason so I can stop scratching my head about this?
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SCC

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Re: Why HE vs Armor, and Kinetic vs Shields?
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2021, 12:17:18 AM »

Alex made a mistake and it just stuck.

SethMK

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Re: Why HE vs Armor, and Kinetic vs Shields?
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2021, 12:54:05 AM »

I always thought it was a form of HEAP (High Explosive Armor Piercing) just being abbreviated to where the projectiles either embed into the armor and then blow it out from the ship doing the extra damage due to turning the ship's own armor into shrapnel.

Learn something new each day.   ::)
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CrashToDesktop

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Re: Why HE vs Armor, and Kinetic vs Shields?
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2021, 01:41:59 AM »

It's more HEAT rather than HE. The Hephaestus Assault Gun also mentions "shaped charge shells", which is another term for HEAT ammunition. Also, HE is easier to say (and explain) than HEAT for people who aren't acquainted with the term.

So, if you look at tank armor vs ammunition, HEAT was the first one that started to really defeat armor. The M1 Bazooka, Panzerschreck, Panzerfaust all fired HEAT ammunition vs tanks. It was HEAT ammunition that caused a design shift in some tanks during the Cold War, where armor was almost entirely dispensed with in favor of firepower and maneuverability (see: Leopard 1). Once composite armors became widespread though, HEAT became generally less effective vs. tanks, but not any less devastating towards less well-armored targets.

Also, pretty much every missile fired today intended for anti-tank purposes uses a HEAT warhead. Missiles being missiles, they can be much larger in diameter (means better HEAT capabilities due to how the physics and mechanics work) and need a thinner case (doesn't need to survive the crushing G-force of being fired out of a barrel at the speed or sound or faster), and cannot achieve the velocity as a cannon, hence are much more suited for HEAT than kinetic penetrators.

I suppose it's worth mentioning that torpedoes tend to be nothing but gigantic bundles of high-explosive at the end of a tube containing some of the best guidance software available. No fancy HEAT, just HE. Underwater conditions tend to do that, what with buoyancy and lower velocities meaning you can make ridiculously large weapons. These things are designed to break a ship in twain through sheer force alone. One hole made using a HEAT warhead, however deep or however much damage it created, won't sink a ship. But, blowing a great big hole in the side with the force of 1000 pounds of high-explosive will. The physics wouldn't translate quite as well to space due to the lack of a medium (water vs. a vacuum), but there's no accounting for brute force through bigger torpedoes. As the saying goes, if brute force isn't working, you're not using enough.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Why HE vs Armor, and Kinetic vs Shields?
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2021, 05:18:04 AM »

I think the stated logic is that Starsector ships use ablative-ish armor which is very good at defeating penetrating attacks, so anti-armor weapons use huge explosions to blast through.

Shields on the other hand are very good at dispersing diffuse energy, but struggle to deal with a high energy, low surface area impact like a kinetic shot.
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Daynen

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Re: Why HE vs Armor, and Kinetic vs Shields?
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2021, 12:36:39 PM »

An energy shield, according to most imaginations and theorem, works by near-instantly dispersing the impact of a projectile over a wide area, as most ablative armor does.  Kinetic weapons focus tremendous kinetic energy onto a single, narrow point, forcing a shield to work that much harder to spread out that concentrated force.  Armor works by being thick, having physical hardness and simply acting as a brake on projectile velocity.  Shields tend to "flatten" shots while armor tends to "catch" them.  Thus, explosions tend to force ablative armor outwards, thinning its protection, while high kinetic energy forces a shield to "stretch" inwards more sharply.

Poke an inflated balloon with your finger and see if it pops.  Now poke it with a needle.  That's shields.

Drop a stick into sand and see how much sand moves out of the way.  Now drop in a stone.  That's armor.
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coolio

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Re: Why HE vs Armor, and Kinetic vs Shields?
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2021, 12:56:21 PM »

An energy shield, according to most imaginations and theorem, works by near-instantly dispersing the impact of a projectile over a wide area, as most ablative armor does.  Kinetic weapons focus tremendous kinetic energy onto a single, narrow point, forcing a shield to work that much harder to spread out that concentrated force.  Armor works by being thick, having physical hardness and simply acting as a brake on projectile velocity.  Shields tend to "flatten" shots while armor tends to "catch" them.  Thus, explosions tend to force ablative armor outwards, thinning its protection, while high kinetic energy forces a shield to "stretch" inwards more sharply.

Poke an inflated balloon with your finger and see if it pops.  Now poke it with a needle.  That's shields.

Drop a stick into sand and see how much sand moves out of the way.  Now drop in a stone.  That's armor.

thats a great way of explaining it.
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Astasia

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Re: Why HE vs Armor, and Kinetic vs Shields?
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2021, 05:00:56 PM »

In real life cheap RPGs still kill tanks pretty easily, though dedicated AT weapons tend to involve more elaborate missile systems. The current counter measure for both of them are basically point defense systems, like Trophy.

HEAT is high explosive anti-tank. It's a combination of explosives that damages the outer layer of armor then pierces through it with a shaped charge. Calling it HEAT in game wouldn't really make much sense since there are no tanks. They are HE weapons in any case.
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crackinthekraken

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Re: Why HE vs Armor, and Kinetic vs Shields?
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2022, 05:51:29 AM »

Thanks for the answers guys!  The mechanic makes a lot more sense now.
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