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Author Topic: The State of Derelict Contingent  (Read 2986 times)

itBeABruhMoment

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The State of Derelict Contingent
« on: December 27, 2021, 10:32:55 PM »

I've done a play through with derelict contingent, and I have some thoughts on its balance and some quality of life issues that come with making a mechanic the player should avoid into a desired buff.

Dmoded ships are better than their pristine variants:
Getting a 30% deployment cost reduction for a ship that's 5-30% worse in some specific field during combat makes generally makes dmods a buff to your ships. With this in mind, dmods become buffs with this skill, which leads to some problems that will be discussed later.

Building the ultimate derelict contingent fleet is tedious:
Dmods are a buff, and the way of obtaining dmods in a reasonably fast manner is to add reinforced bulkheads to the ships you want to buff, load them with crew, pursue a tiny enemy fleet, take command of that pursuit, question the lack of a crew morale mechanic as you personally massacre your allies, and recover the lost ships. Repeat this process around 4 times and you might have the ship you desired, assuming you didn't roll any ships with faulty power grid or defective manufactory, which is a sign to immediately scuttle. Purposely killing your own ships is a overly complicated way of adding buffs, and an option on the fleet or refit screen that allows the player to deliberately add dmods is in order.

Missile boats get off relatively scott free from dmods:
There aren't dmods that make missiles significantly less effective, so dmods matter significantly less on ships such as the Gryphon or Falcon P than on carriers or line ships. Adding dmods that target ships that rely on missiles would remedy this.

Rolling for desired dmods:
My biggest problem with derelict contingent is that how strong your ships are is significantly RNG dependant. For example, the player could get a Paragon with faulty power grid, degraded shields, degraded engines, compromised armour, and compromised hull, which would make it shoot 15% less, tank about 25% less damage with its shields, have 20% worse armour, have 30% less hull points, 15% worse turn rate, and 15% worse speed. This is terrible compared to a Paragon with glitched sensors, unreliable subsystems, faulty automated systems, degraded life support, and increased maintenance, which gives the Paragon trivial debuffs in battle and higher logistical costs, which become irrelevant going into the late game. In addition to logistical dmods that are mostly meaningless in battle, some dmods have little effect on certain ships. For example, compromised armour and hull matters little on high tech ships because they mainly use shields to survive. With a system of giving buffs like this, the player can acquire ships that cost 30% less dp and have little meaningful downsides in combat, but the process to get them requires a lot of grinding.

If the current 6% less dp for each dmod stat is to be kept, making dmods less random would lessen the need to roll dmods, make the strength of dmodded ships more consistent, and make derelict contingent easier to balance. For example, for high tech line ships, the first dmod could always be faulty power grid, the second degraded shields, the third a random dmod that effects some other combat stat, and the remaining two logistical dmods. For even more control, every dmod could be assigned its own specific dp, recovery cost, and maintenance reductions and the player could be given the option to select a ships dmods.
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JUDGE! slowpersun

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Re: The State of Derelict Contingent
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2021, 10:37:50 PM »

question the lack of a crew morale mechanic as you personally massacre your allies,

Someone after my heart, I see! :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
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DaShiv

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Re: The State of Derelict Contingent
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2021, 02:14:56 AM »

My biggest problem with derelict contingent is that how strong your ships are is significantly RNG dependant. For example, the player could get a Paragon with faulty power grid, degraded shields, degraded engines, compromised armour, and compromised hull, which would make it shoot 15% less, tank about 25% less damage with its shields, have 20% worse armour, have 30% less hull points, 15% worse turn rate, and 15% worse speed. This is terrible compared to a Paragon with glitched sensors, unreliable subsystems, faulty automated systems, degraded life support, and increased maintenance, which gives the Paragon trivial debuffs in battle and higher logistical costs, which become irrelevant going into the late game. In addition to logistical dmods that are mostly meaningless in battle, some dmods have little effect on certain ships. For example, compromised armour and hull matters little on high tech ships because they mainly use shields to survive. With a system of giving buffs like this, the player can acquire ships that cost 30% less dp and have little meaningful downsides in combat, but the process to get them requires a lot of grinding.

Firstly, the "trivial debuffs in battle" you listed (Glitched Sensors = -10% range; Faulty Automated Systems, Degraded Life Support, Increased Maintenance = -5% CR apiece) aren't really that trivial.

Secondly, it's true that some d-mods (like Unreliable Subsystems and Compromised Hull) affect some ships more than others, but that's to be expected given the different combat stats that different ships rely upon in different ways - there are definitely ships for which penalties to CR/PPT or armor/hull would be huge drawbacks.

Lastly, consider that Derelict Operations directly competes against other top tier skills (additional s-mod + battle DP equalizer; access to some of the best ships and tons of free officers; +10-15% CR and greatly reduced impact of combat losses and salvaging; etc.) and its benefits should be commensurately powerful as well, especially given that unlike most of the other top tier skills, it has a very distinct downside to use.

Personally I don't have an issue with the randomness of d-mods: it gives another layer of consideration for how "good" a particular ship is to recover. Running Derelict Operations certainly makes salvaging a lot more interesting when you're on the lookout for "good" d-mods for a particular hull.
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Serenitis

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Re: The State of Derelict Contingent
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2021, 05:02:36 AM »

I play with maximum junk and never fix anything. And I have never even once felt compelled to deliberately destroy my own ships or savescum for certain mods.
If you feel like you have to do this in order to use it, have you considered that maybe you're overthinking it a little bit?

There's not really any such thing as an 'ultimate' d-mod fleet. There's just what's available at any given time, and you make the best of it. And that is different every single game. Some will be 'better' than others.
If you're actively trying to game this one skill in such a manner, then you're going to have a very dull and frustrating time.
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Astasia

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Re: The State of Derelict Contingent
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2021, 01:43:57 PM »

I feel like the idea somebody would take this skill and not bend over backwards to maximize the gains from it is about as likely as somebody buying a ship and just throwing random weapons and hull mods on it and never experimenting to make that ship better. I'm sure there are people who play like that, but I don't think it's a reasonable expectation to have for most players. There is a fairly normal inclination for players to want to improve in a game in whatever ways they can, and if that means blowing up their own ships to get specific sets of d-mods to min-max the benefits of this skill, it's what people are going to do. It's why personally I'd probably never take the skill because it sounds like such a headache to use effectively.

The fact d-mods can already be beneficial without this skill already itches at me a bit when I play. Trying to get compromised armor/hull/storage on all my shield based tech ships is something I could see myself doing just for the 60% reduced supply cost, and I have to sort of force myself to not go down that rabbit hole.
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JUDGE! slowpersun

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Re: The State of Derelict Contingent
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2021, 01:50:15 PM »

I feel like the idea somebody would take this skill and not bend over backwards to maximize the gains from it is about as likely as somebody buying a ship and just throwing random weapons and hull mods on it and never experimenting to make that ship better. I'm sure there are people who play like that, but I don't think it's a reasonable expectation to have for most players. There is a fairly normal inclination for players to want to improve in a game in whatever ways they can, and if that means blowing up their own ships to get specific sets of d-mods to min-max the benefits of this skill, it's what people are going to do.
State of video game play these days.  That and trawling youtube or forums or whatever for tips n tricks.  I blame Twitch.
It's why personally I'd probably never take the skill because it sounds like such a headache to use effectively.
Skill does seem kinda like a deliberate choice for a playthrough, I was planning on doing a space miner run at some point with new mod that compresses resources for cost of heavy machinery.  But it does have some very interesting benefits for reducing DP cost so can deploy more ships that can take more of a beating (mostly low tech ships), but definitely susceptible to cheesing by players (hence OP).
The fact d-mods can already be beneficial without this skill already itches at me a bit when I play. Trying to get compromised armor/hull/storage on all my shield based tech ships is something I could see myself doing just for the 60% reduced supply cost, and I have to sort of force myself to not go down that rabbit hole.
Dunno, D-mods already just beneficial due to how it affects ship buy cost (apparently an optimization problem?).  But not necessarily beneficial otherwise.  Perhaps maybe D-mod debuffs should be random %, so sometimes player gets lucky but usually not...
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Megas

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Re: The State of Derelict Contingent
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2021, 02:02:51 PM »

I feel like the idea somebody would take this skill and not bend over backwards to maximize the gains from it is about as likely as somebody buying a ship and just throwing random weapons and hull mods on it and never experimenting to make that ship better. I'm sure there are people who play like that, but I don't think it's a reasonable expectation to have for most players. There is a fairly normal inclination for players to want to improve in a game in whatever ways they can, and if that means blowing up their own ships to get specific sets of d-mods to min-max the benefits of this skill, it's what people are going to do.
State of video game play these days.  That and trawling youtube or forums or whatever for tips n tricks.  I blame Twitch.
Min-maxing, exploit abuse, and degenerate gameplay have existed before Internet.  Even arcade games from the '80s were not immune (although people played for high score like in a pinball game).  I even remember few magazines printing cheap tricks and exploits to help prolong your game.
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JUDGE! slowpersun

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Re: The State of Derelict Contingent
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2021, 02:13:41 PM »

Min-maxing, exploit abuse, and degenerate gameplay have existed before Internet.  Even arcade games from the '80s were not immune (although people played for high score like in a pinball game).  I even remember few magazines printing cheap tricks and exploits to help prolong your game.

True, just more widespread now.  What was once the province of nerds has become mainstream.  But sadly no Revenge of the Nerds!
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tseikk1

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Re: The State of Derelict Contingent
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2021, 04:56:47 PM »


Building the ultimate derelict contingent fleet is tedious


I feel like the idea somebody would take this skill and not bend over backwards to maximize the gains from it is about as likely as somebody buying a ship and just throwing random weapons and hull mods on it and never experimenting to make that ship better.

I feel the same. In fact, this is the reason I haven't really played with Derelict Contingent at all. I love gradually building up and perfecting, or close to perfecting, a late game fleet. Usually I spend a lot of time in the ship editor brainstorming a certain playstyle. Derelict Contingent doesn't sound like a fun skill to me, because I know if I want to build a late game fleet with it it means I'd have to do the aforementioned grind.

Just letting it do its thing and not focusing on it, kinda having it as an early game-ish skill isn't really an option either, because for that kind of playstyle I find Hull Restoration is just superior in every way. Why make your d-mod ships less bad, when you could have no dmods in the first place? I just finished a playthrough, and it's likely Hull Restoration gave me upwards of 50 million of value in credits when it mattered, WHILE saving a ton of time and nerves, AND also giving a nice CR boost. I thought Wolfpack Tactics and Automated Ships were my favourite skills, nah, friendship ended, now Hull Restoration is my best friend.
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Nimiety

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Re: The State of Derelict Contingent
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2021, 10:12:23 PM »

I picked it with my recent game because I'm using max aggression fleet doctrine and am recovering 5-7 ships per fight sometimes. It's only worth tsking IMO if the rate you are aquiring dmods is higher than the rate hull restoration would bleed them off
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itBeABruhMoment

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Re: The State of Derelict Contingent
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2021, 05:57:51 PM »

After reading some of the comments I think a response is needed:

The dmods I listed in the example are non trivial in battle:
10% less range on a Paragon doesn't matter that much, it's still never getting outranged by anything but another Paragon. The cr penalties aren't very meaningful, they give the Paragon a slightly worse operating time than a pristine cruiser. If cruisers becoming inert pieces of space junk is a common occurrence in battle, rethink your strategy.

Derelict contingent doesn't compete with other top tier skills:
First of all, I should have made it more clear in my first post that current dmod mechanics make derelict contingent an overpowered skill when run optimally or close to optimally. If you get ships with good dmods, you basically get to deploy 30% more ships. For example, instead of deploying two pristine Paragons and a omen you can deploy 3 Paragons with the same amount of firepower and tankyness. It also synergizes really well with support doctrine, as the buffs for unofficered ships accounts for the existence of more unofficered ships and cr debuffs. Getting "good dmods" is grindy but completely feasible. High tech and midline ships really only need to avoid faulty power grid and maybe degraded shields to be close to optimal. Similarly, carriers need to avoid defective manufactory and damaged flight deck. Only low tech ships are stupidly hard to get optimal hulls for because they rely on both armour and shields to survive, which leads to 4 non-carrier specific dmods with significant impacts on performance (high tech best tech).
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DaShiv

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Re: The State of Derelict Contingent
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2021, 09:40:27 PM »

10% less range on a Paragon doesn't matter that much, it's still never getting outranged by anything but another Paragon. The cr penalties aren't very meaningful, they give the Paragon a slightly worse operating time than a pristine cruiser.

CR penalties decrease performance across the board - damage inflicted, damage taken, etc.

You seem to be fixated on how Paragons can ignore a lot of d-mods and still be effective, which says more about the Paragon than about d-mods or Derelict Contingent. As was brought up earlier, different d-mods are going to impact different ships very differently, which is reasonable given the diversity of ship strengths and weaknesses in the game.

First of all, I should have made it more clear in my first post that current dmod mechanics make derelict contingent an overpowered skill when run optimally or close to optimally. If you get ships with good dmods, you basically get to deploy 30% more ships.

The real question is: overpowered compared to what?

Compared to the previous iteration of the skill, which rendered sufficiently d-modded ships effectively immortal, I don't think the current Derelict Operations is anywhere close to that level of "broken" or "overpowered". I also believe that reduction in deployment cost is a better lever to pull than d-modded ships being able to withstand immensely more damage. Of course, one could quibble with whether -6% per d-mod is the right number - I'm sure Alex would appreciate feedback on that.

Compared to other current top tier skills: I think the jury's still out on that. Is -30% DP with varying penalties to combat performance depending in ship/d-mod combination too powerful? I'm not sure if it's any more powerful than access to Radiant/Glimmer/officers with 8 elite skills, or +1 s-mod and being able to completely negate enemy officer spam and still be able to deploy all your ships in combat, etc. Unofficially, out of the skill layouts I've seen shared on Discord, Hull Restoration has been much more popular as the Industry pick. The point is that all the top tier skills are supposed to be special and very impactful, and Derelict Operations is no exception. I'm personally not seeing Derelict Operations as "lul must pick or ur dumb" right now, but it's still pretty soon after a major skill revamp and perhaps sentiment will evolve over time.
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Serenitis

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Re: The State of Derelict Contingent
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2021, 03:35:30 AM »

There's something here about optimising the fun out of things.
Honestly, I'm not a min-maxer so I just don't "get" this mindset at all.

When I use d-mod ships, my first thought is that I can deploy them more for any given amont of supplies. So - Cheaper to fight battles.
Derelict Contingent also applies that to the ongoing maint. So - Increased map endurance.
And it also reduces the deployment cost. So - Can use more ships in any given battle.

None of these things increase the direct combat power of your ships. In fact they decrease the individual power of each ship, because d-mods.
That's because DC is not about increasing your combat power.
It's about increasing your Logistics power. Y'know, sort of fitting for a logistics skill.

The second thought I have is that I no longer have to care about micromanaging my fleet. At all.
If any of my ships gets disabled I can just pick them up, dust them off and carry on without really caring because it costs so little to recover them. And an extra d-mod only compounds this.
The only thing that really matters is winning the battle - Everything that happens in the battle is almost completely irrelvant, so long as you win.
That's a lot of pressure removed, and I like that. Makes things much more chill.

My goal for any given game is to explore everything and recover/salvage all wrecks etc.
This involves a surprising amount of combat, but not usually anything right at the very top-end of the scale. So I'm finding the current setup of running a junkfleet with Derelict Contingent to be working quite well for me.
The side effect of this is that with enough d-mods you can deploy your entire fleet, lose+recover some ships, and still salvage more supplies than you use to repair everything.
It's not combat power, but it definitely feels powerful in a different way.

This is, I think, where there's a bit of a disconnect.
If you're focused purely on combat power alone, then any ability that doesn't either directly increase it, or mitigate any losses of it are going to seem unappealing to you.
And that's fine.
But it doesn't mean others haven't found a use for it.

Hopefully this rambling nonsense will be useful as a data point for Alex if nothing else.
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Yunru

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Re: The State of Derelict Contingent
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2021, 04:32:21 AM »

The only issue I have with Derelict Contingent, or rather the Tech aptitude, is that it's the only capstones that are somewhat mutually exclusive. You want one or the other, but not both.

ArbuzBudesh

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Re: The State of Derelict Contingent
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2022, 12:01:02 PM »

A problem im having with derelict op is less a balance, but rather it being more "annoying" to exploit as a player relatively optimally.
Since in comparison restoration passively brings benefit without player needing to spend extra time to remove d-mods, and you not reliant on rng here since sooner or later all dmod will be gone. Compared to derelict op you either need to intentionally break your ships or semi-controlled enviorment, or just hope for the best with rng.
Or another comparison is green branch support doctrine, which grants 20% reduction. Obviously its different that its more combat focused without logistics buff, and you cant stack it with officers but for sake of argument lets assume other bonuses from it offset the difference. So for every other ship you now need 4-5 dmods on a ship to make it "worth" having derelict op over support, which now again leads us to being insentivised to break ships or pray to rngesus. While support doctrine conditions are fairly reliably achieved without needing player to spend extra time grinding for something.

While i dont think it need to get stronger, but would be nice is some logistical "simplification" to accumulate D-mods easier like "sloppy recovery" option next to difficult recovery post battle where you get plenty of dmods + some minor boon like token extra loot. Or perhaps version of "rugged construction" without penalty reducion but very likely to get dmods + nearly guaranteed recovery.
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