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[Uomoz]

Credit cost isn't really ever a drawback

[FlashFrozen]

So it'll be fine for me to lower everything to below low tech prices? lol

[Uomoz]

Well you don't have to ask me! xD I'm just stating that after 3-4 fights a player have 50k+ credits easily

[Magician]

 In a test against Buffalo and two lashers Causality simply died. At the same time wolf with assault weapon won. Both using autopilot.

Because the only thing this youtube video shows is that Humans play better than AI. Nothing else. Killing defenseless Buffalos 1 by 1 isn't something great, especially when human controls ship. Causality in the first place is good only because of how humans control ships and how AI controls ships. Not because Causality has something outstanding. And in any serious battle against opponents who have weapons and are attacking in numbers Causality will feel herself very uncomfortable, very, even under humans control. The sole fact that this ship has only 1 assault weapon with phase instead of shield already tells that except 1vs1 situations against ships with lack of defense and weapons Causality will feel herself uncomfortable.

The only reason Causality performs good - because it is human who controls the ship and because this ship is designed solely for striking purpose, sacrificing all other aspects.

P.s. Though I strongly against nerfing ships just because they are good at something, or someone managed to kill buffalo with it... Theoretically speaking this assault blaster should be changed to either less stronger weapon or to a weapon or two weapons of another type, not with assault stats. But this will completely ruin whole purpose of having phase system on this ship.

[Durendal5150]

Just as a counterpoint, I think the biggest drawback with the causality is that you'll overload yourself pretty often using the phasecloak from it's high upfront flux cost, even Durendal (good job though ) did it to himself like 2-3 times. It's especially troubling when you really needed that cloak.
Though the bug of it having two phase missiles has been squashed.

Hehe, thanks. and I think that's a fair point. If that volley that eventually got me had just a few more missiles in it I would have been scrap. I did eventually just run it in a test against a Venture...there's no way the Causality can get past that things shields by itself, to say nothing of anything heavier.

In a test against Buffalo and two lashers Causality simply died. At the same time wolf with assault weapon won. Both using autopilot.

Because the only thing this youtube video shows is that Humans play better than AI. Nothing else. Killing defenseless Buffalos 1 by 1 isn't something great, especially when human controls ship. Causality in the first place is good only because of how humans control ships and how AI controls ships. Not because Causality has something outstanding. And in any serious battle against opponents who have weapons and are attacking in numbers Causality will feel herself very uncomfortable, very, even under humans control. The sole fact that this ship has only 1 assault weapon with phase instead of shield already tells that except 1vs1 situations against ships with lack of defense and weapons Causality will feel herself uncomfortable.

The only reason Causality performs good - because it is human who controls the ship and because this ship is designed solely for striking purpose, sacrificing all other aspects.

P.s. Though I strongly against nerfing ships just because they are good at something, or someone managed to kill buffalo with it... Theoretically speaking this assault blaster should be changed to either less stronger weapon or to a weapon or two weapons of another type, not with assault stats. But this will completely ruin whole purpose of having phase system on this ship.

Also very good points. I've found the Causality great for these sorts of buffalo-slaughtering runs; but against anything more than that you need to bring 7-9 of them; and the AI cannot handle them terribly well; in groups they are highly effective, but I lost several of them to cruiser and capital death explosions.

If Flash has removed their second missile launcher, I'd say that's probably nerf enough; that cuts their damage output pretty heavily.

Chances are they'll still destroy an infinite number of Buffaloes in 1v1 though

[Griffinhart]

Lashers piloted by a human can take out AI Buffalos in 1v1, that's nothing special.

I'm assuming the FALKEN has the TLS for its built-in weapon, yes? :p

-- Griffinhart

[EurypteriD]

In a test against Buffalo and two lashers Causality simply died. At the same time wolf with assault weapon won. Both using autopilot.


P.s. Though I strongly against nerfing ships just because they are good at something, or someone managed to kill buffalo with it... Theoretically speaking this assault blaster should be changed to either less stronger weapon or to a weapon or two weapons of another type, not with assault stats. But this will completely ruin whole purpose of having phase system on this ship.

The frig you can start with. The one with arc porter and 2 Phase beams.
In that i can easy kill 4 buffalo or making it more fun 6 Mules.

But yes if the AI takes over the ship it might win over 1 buffa but no way against that many.

Spelling errors are COPYRIGHTED by Eurypterid

[valefore]

Credit cost isn't really ever a drawback

Uomoz, you need to be more specific in these comments before somebody asks... And some constructive feedback in addition to negative ones would help.

Well, I said this before too but credit costs are in fact significant. Sure you can get 50k in 3~4 fights in mid-game, but you can buy like 5 low-tech frigates, 3 Tri-Tachyon frigates or 2 destroyers (about?), and you can buy 2 crappy Neutrino frigates. And you should know how useless Neutrino ships can be against 1 on multiple enemy fights, which will be the majority of the fights you have. Additionally neutrino ships really suck in cargo size... so an additional freighter is a must. Finally, Neutrino ships start to get useful beginning from the destroyer classes because they begin to have decent mounts and high flux capacity, but those cost a boatload of money (60k for destroyers and over 11k for cruisers). Not to mention that capital ships cost over 30k, which is a fortune for the first hour or so of game play.

In short, Credits are in fact an important factor, and it is much more cost-efficient to buy and use other mid-tech or high-tech ships then to use Neutrino ships. It's also hard to control Neutrino ships because of the tiny shields (although strong), so I personally rarely used neutrino ships in 0.6 despite the fact that I'm a Neutrino fan boy.



Well, maybe you can get really strong by replacing your ships with Neutrino ones, one by one, as you become more and more rich. But even then, I don't think Neutrino ships are super competitive, especially up to the cruiser levels because of the weird weapon mounts and slow speed. I think they are strong in Capital ship battles, just because that limits the number of ships and Neutrino are better in few:few combat, but then again they have a lot of capital ships. This advantage was previously offset with high Fleet Deployment Points, but with the current version, that becomes useless. So there may be a balancing problem in 0.6. However, implementing high maintenance costs just makes them unusable (non-profitable) mid-game, when players are struggling with using their money.



Here is my opinion on Neutrino Balance:

I'm actually not completely sure of how balanced Neutrino is because it's such a unique faction. It's offensive capabilities are less than average but it's defensive capabilities are off the chart in certain situations. For the CR degradation, I don't think it would hurt Neutrino that much because even with other frigates, combat was usually over before that became a problem. Maybe adding one with a longer limit to Neutrino ships will help even the situation with other faction frigates.

Also, how about decreasing the shield effectiveness slightly? I think all of this commotion is because Neutrinos are near impossible to beat head-on, due to their insane shield efficiency and flux vent rate. Although this may be a unique strength that brings about different strategies, I think it is unfair to completely block one strategy, especially when Neutrino can vent their flux super fast. Come to think of it, these two strengths produce an unfair synergy... I think the idea should be 'Neutrinos are hard to beat head on, but are easy to beat by flanking' instead of 'Neutrinos are near impossible to beat head on, but are easy to beat by flanking'. Maybe lower the shield effectiveness to about 0.4? 0.4 is still twice as effective as other high-tech ships and 30 degrees is about half of most omni shield ships so... And maybe slightly buff the flux capacities of smaller ships because they die easily even now compared to other faction frigates.

And you can cut costs on most ships because you made a significant nerf, maybe to x2 of average than the current ~x3. I still think they should cost more because they force a different strategy.


How do you all think? Would this be a satisfying compromise?
 

[HELMUT]

and you can buy 2 crappy Neutrino frigates.

The Causality disagree with your statement. In the hand of the player, i found it to be the most powerful frigate of the game, save for the Hyperion. And for the destroyers, i always found them kinda underwhelming in comparison to other ship class. They make incredible support ships (Vice as ranged disabler, Hacksaw as point defense boat, Piledriver and Sledgehammer as long range fire support. All of them with stock weaponry though) but are kinda lacking to pretend to be the backbone of a Neutrino fleet.

I am against integrating the money cost in the balance system. Right now it is just far too easy to farm the independents freighters around Askonia for free money, even with one low level frigate.

If a nerf could be used for the Neutrinos. It would be i think, increasing the CR cost and implementing CR degradation during battles. Unlike you, i found Neutrinos to be very good at attrition warfare as a lot of their ships got long range weaponry and carrier capability (TheEND would be probably the most effective ship in the whole game for prolonged battles). Well, of course fights can be shorts when you bring the brawlers like the Unsung, Jackhammer MKII or even the Lathe.

But money as balance factor? Nope, far too easy to grind, even for getting the hundreds of thousands needed for the big ships.

[Uomoz]

Credit cost isn't really ever a drawback

Uomoz, you need to be more specific in these comments before somebody asks... And some constructive feedback in addition to negative ones would help.

1) Wait a second, it is constructive feedback, I just express it in a very concise way. For example, the Hyperion: it cost an absurd amount of credits but its negative balance factor is the CR cost, not the price itself.
2) It may look like negative feedback but it's not. I love the factions I give feedback to and I simply want the best for em. I made the campaign integration for this very mod when it was just released, as I saw a lot of potential in it.
3) Probably the more "veteran" forumers around here know my way to write things, and get my message despite my poor way to manifest it.

[Borgoid]

3) Probably the more "veteran" forumers around here know my way to write things, and get my message despite my poor way to manifest it.

Being concise implies being comprehensive. People only get annoyed with you because you emphatically declare things without justifying or contextualizing them. Even if you're correct people are going to perceive it as arrogance rather than intelligence, and anyone who can't work it out is going to feel left out and subsequently annoyed.

Anyway back on topic, credit cost is a pretty tiny hurdle even in the worst of times and it's very much a 1-time thing. Once you own the ship there's really no further challenge. CR is a much harder mechanic to circumnavigate and one of its primary advantages is it can be used to balance out powerful ships.



Helmut when it comes to Hacksaws and Vices, throwing Heavy Blasters or Pulse Lasers on a Hacksaw leads to very different results, same goes for a Neutrino Lance on a Vice. Best of all the AI handles them fairly well so from an ownership standpoint I'd say they're pretty back-boney.

[Uomoz]

3) Probably the more "veteran" forumers around here know my way to write things, and get my message despite my poor way to manifest it.

Being concise implies being comprehensive. People only get annoyed with you because you emphatically declare things without justifying or contextualizing them. Even if you're correct people are going to perceive it as arrogance rather than intelligence, and anyone who can't work it out is going to feel left out and subsequently annoyed.

Fair point. Not that many of the things I write need a lot of justification, like: "Credit cost isn't really ever a drawback", but whatever xD.

[Silver Silence]

Before my save bloated to a point I could no longer load it, I worked up a million credits on Exerelin while playing as the Neutrino with a Hacksaw and a pair of Causalities. Also a pair of buffaloes for hauling lewt but they were never fielded, they weren't even fitted. I had the Hacksaw with 4 Sappers (about the only time I've used missiles on a ship in recent memory, aside from FairyEN where Pilums had unlimited ammo. Any ship with Fast Missile Racks in that mod... *shudders*...), two.. are they Phase Repeaters or Photon Repeaters? The ugly square boxes that I'm unsure if it even constitutes a gun, two burst PDs for the defense. It worked pretty well. Well enough that instead of getting the slow-firing heavy version when I eventually upgraded to a Maul (because the Jackhammer IIs and Norns had been cycled out of the station by the time I had money for them), I kept the repeaters and added a third. The result was quite hilarious, just sitting in the general area of enemy ships, sieging up and blapping away with woefully inaccurate repeater fire. Even contemplated adjusting the stats to have the same RoF and flux/s but with a much higher rate of fire so I could just suppress a ship that had it's shields down without ever doing real damage.


The Vice, in 0.54, was my go-to destroyer escort when I decided I wanted escorts. Fitted with the crazy Neutrino needler missiles, Unstable Photon Cannons and another photon cannon in the locked forward mount, they just spewed forth a sickening amount of things that hurt. 'Course, I also edited the needler missiles and the Photon Cannon to have unlimited ammo in case a battle went on for longer than I expected.

I think the Neutrino destroyers are okay. Never really touched the cruisers at all until the Maul, because asymmetry.

[valefore]

and you can buy 2 crappy Neutrino frigates.

But money as balance factor? Nope, far too easy to grind, even for getting the hundreds of thousands needed for the big ships.

Well, that's why I also brought up the balancing point... But cost should have at least SOME importance as it wouldn't make sense to make all ships 1k and call it a day, which I've never seen any modder do.

The Causality disagree with your statement. In the hand of the player, i found it to be the most powerful frigate of the game, save for the Hyperion.

Actually, I always thought that the Causality without the double phase missiles was pretty lame, especially because it was a phase frigate with no strike or high offensive capabilities. Maybe the infinite phase is the problem... But in terms of usability or firepower, I'd just go with the Tempest. And the AI sucks at using it too.

If a nerf could be used for the Neutrinos. It would be i think, increasing the CR cost and implementing CR degradation during battles. Unlike you, i found Neutrinos to be very good at attrition warfare as a lot of their ships got long range weaponry and carrier capability (TheEND would be probably the most effective ship in the whole game for prolonged battles). Well, of course fights can be shorts when you bring the brawlers like the Unsung, Jackhammer MKII or even the Lathe.

Well, I forgot about CR costs but I thought FlashFrozen was going to do something about that. As for the TheEND, that's probably also because the infinite phase... which I think should be fixed... On the other hand, in terms of long range weaponry, I'd say other factions have much better ones. In my opinion, the shields and high armor are what make Neutrino good at attrition, but you have a point.

Helmut when it comes to Hacksaws and Vices, throwing Heavy Blasters or Pulse Lasers on a Hacksaw leads to very different results, same goes for a Neutrino Lance on a Vice. Best of all the AI handles them fairly well so from an ownership standpoint I'd say they're pretty back-boney.

Oooh... i forgot about those. Yeah, I think the destroyers can be pretty strong too because of high flux vent rates and decent weapon mounts.
Hmm.. What do you think about the cruisers or the new capitals? I haven't had time to try them all out.

1) Wait a second, it is constructive feedback, I just express it in a very concise way. For example, the Hyperion: it cost an absurd amount of credits but its negative balance factor is the CR cost, not the price itself.
2) It may look like negative feedback but it's not. I love the factions I give feedback to and I simply want the best for em. I made the campaign integration for this very mod when it was just released, as I saw a lot of potential in it.

Well.. Constructive feedback should mean suggesting ways of improving, regardless of intent. On the other hand, negative feedback should mean identifying problems so other people can realize them, regardless of intent. And I think positive is praising, but anyway, these are the terms I meant. Btw, I completely believe that you have good intent.
That said, feedback is most effective when constructive and negative feedback are given together; identify a problem and suggest ways to fix it. However, simply pointing out problems can be frustrating to a lot of people. At least it frustrates students really easily, and most people aren't very far from students so...

3) Probably the more "veteran" forumers around here know my way to write things, and get my message despite my poor way to manifest it.

Being concise implies being comprehensive. People only get annoyed with you because you emphatically declare things without justifying or contextualizing them. Even if you're correct people are going to perceive it as arrogance rather than intelligence, and anyone who can't work it out is going to feel left out and subsequently annoyed.

Yeah.. the reason I continuously bring this up is because some people in fact do look offended by your comments, Uomoz. I actually believe that you are a nice person, judging from your work here and your previous comment.
However, you have to understand that stating a single line of opinion, which is often criticism, is not helpful to most people. You need to elaborate, because anything not explained is an ambiguity, which can be interpreted in a variety of ways. In fact, it's very easy to be misunderstood and I can occasionally see slight antagonisms arise with you and even people who look somewhat 'veteran'. Even if that's not the case, most people in this forum would probably not be 'veteran' so it would help if you take that into account. Because I think you can and are misunderstood a lot...

Fair point. Not that many of the things I write need a lot of justification, like: "Credit cost isn't really ever a drawback", but whatever xD.

For example, your statement "Credit cost isn't really ever a drawback" really doesn't convey any meaningful information. A reader can know that's your opinion, but why? It is very possible the reader believes otherwise and have his own reasons to believe so. In fact that's most likely the case, or else you wouldn't be making that comment in the first place. However, there is absolutely no reason for the reader to change that thought by looking at the simple statement you made, because the logic or reasoning behind it is not apparent at all. You might as well say that 'If you don't believe in my god, you will go to hell' and it will hold the same accountability and usefulness as the comment you made. What readers may assume is that you are authoritative because you 'declare' your ideas, and that you think the idea is so obvious that it's not worth explaining (because you didn't), which leaves the reader to be a fool which further annoys him.
The last misunderstanding won't happen 100% of the time (although it would happen easily), but this kind of comment is still not helpful. What you could say is that 'I think this, and here is why'. Then the other person might say 'I think this, and here is why. I understand why you think that way, but I disagree with X', and you and the reader actually have a scaffold that they can build a discussion on.


Don't take this as offense because that's not intended. These are constructive+negative feedback, which is your choice whether or not to accept them. But if you don't, you should be prepared to have some people being offended by you once in a while, and they might want to offend you too...

[Uomoz]

I never gave any negative feedback, I was just stating an opinion. I didn't try to change any other mind over this matter, so your example is pretty faulted there. I do believe that people can have different opinions and trying to change the other's is not always a good way to deal with it. It was not negative to begin with, not even criticism! I was in a hurry and wrote something quick, you guys read way too much into it.

Keeping it simple: the cost is not a valid way to nerf a ship in this game because most of the time the difference between 5k credits and 50k is minimal in terms of time spent earning it. That's related to the fact that Alex actually made strong ships not only cost more, but with many other downsides. That's it. I see no point in being offended over this, really. Note: I did suggest ways to improve the matter, not long ago.

I can occasionally see slight antagonisms arise with you and even people who look somewhat 'veteran'

Ehrrr what? I have close and super friendly connections with a lot of members on this forum, I think you are a bit exaggerating here... This is a great community, and I have 0 problems with anyone.

I accept the criticism about my one liners and I appreciate that you consider my opinion though

#UOMOZ OUT