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Author Topic: [0.9.1a] Neutrino Corp. (v. 1.86-RC3)  (Read 986101 times)

Griffinhart

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Re: Neutrino Corp. (v. 1.7)
« Reply #465 on: September 20, 2013, 10:42:21 PM »

For the Unsung, at least, I think the shield nerf is *maybe* a bit much, considering that 0.6a reduced the Ordnance Point bonuses from leveling, so it's much harder to fit Extended Shields, etc. without compromising elsewhere. (IIRC, in 0.54.1a, a character with all of the +OP bonuses could get the Unsung up to 760 OP, at which point you could have a full gun fit [no missiles, though], plus 200 points in flux cap and vent, and a pile of hull mods, and still end up with points leftover; 0.6a's changes brings the Unsung down to 676 OP.)

Not that that really stops the Unsung from crushing pretty much anything and everything in its way with impunity; an Unsung with some Wasps or Schwarms for point-capping/fighter screening and some freighters for logistics can pretty much take on anything in the game. (Navigation 10 + the one applicable engine hull mod brings your burn rating up to 7, so you can catch most things, too.)

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« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 10:47:23 PM by Griffinhart »
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Nexusin

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Re: Neutrino Corp. (v. 1.7)
« Reply #466 on: September 21, 2013, 05:31:43 AM »

I always felt that the neutrino capital ship shield to be nigh on indestructible and seriously OP with extended and hardened shields, so I am fine with this.

Now I have to be careful of getting flanked by something dangerous.
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Silver Silence

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Re: Neutrino Corp. (v. 1.7)
« Reply #467 on: September 21, 2013, 05:39:29 AM »

When their front is pointed at you, yeah, it takes a ridiculous amount of firepower to get them to shove off, and it only takes them moments to vent off all that built up flux anyway. If their sides are pointed at you, you can fire clean past their shields and shoot either end of the ship.

Hardened Shields would still give them like 0.1 efficiency, unless the Neutrino Shield hullmod disabled that. I can't remember what was decided on and I wanna wait until Exerelin is working again before playing with all the new toys.
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Plasmatic

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Re: Neutrino Corp. (v. 1.7)
« Reply #468 on: September 21, 2013, 07:30:14 AM »

First off, Still loving the mod, Unsung is by far my favorite looking ship, and probably favorite to play as well.. but, it is massively OP..

The Herp Emitters still melt anything and everything and with flux vents etc cost next to nothing to fire..

It has a ridiculous amount of hull/armor strength. I can easily face down multiple capital ships without ever turning shields on.

Couple that very nice turning ability (to aim Herp Emitters) with 6 large slots, 6 medium, countless small slots and you have an unbeatable ship basically..

Just run a simulation vs all of the vanilla ships I could deploy at once and I won with 0% hull damage, that is 0% without ever even turning shields on, eating all the torpedoes to the face and everything..

The only thing I found that kills it reliably is other neutrino capitals, and even then, I need to run a simulation with all of them to kill it as fast as I kill them one on one..


Though I have no idea what can be done besides lowering the flux dissipation, hp and armor..

« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 08:09:32 AM by Plasmatic »
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SpaceRiceBowl

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Re: Neutrino Corp. (v. 1.7)
« Reply #469 on: September 21, 2013, 07:37:20 AM »

Nah, I say keep it op, just increase its supply usage and cost in campaign so it's like an endgame ship
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Garmine

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Re: Neutrino Corp. (v. 1.7)
« Reply #470 on: September 21, 2013, 07:43:13 AM »

Isn't the Unsung *supposed* to be OP?
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Silver Silence

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Re: Neutrino Corp. (v. 1.7)
« Reply #471 on: September 21, 2013, 08:11:33 AM »

Yeah, it kinda is. But boohoo, it works well and kills ships easily, nerf it into the core of the Earth. The ground is not enough.
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FlashFrozen

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Re: Neutrino Corp. (v. 1.7)
« Reply #472 on: September 21, 2013, 12:39:56 PM »

Mmm I might hold off on any sort of buff for now then, but Let's not base all our balancing on the biggest ship in the fleet :P

The two buffs that I was gonna give was either:

All neutrino ships have 0 flux usage/sec with shields on - for more fleetwide maneuverability
All neutrino hull/armor takes normalized damage, prob like 75% HE, 75% Energy, 75% kinetic - because your bound to take plenty of shots on your hull without extended shields.

but i'll let it go on a little longer to see how this fares x)
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Silver Silence

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Re: Neutrino Corp. (v. 1.7)
« Reply #473 on: September 21, 2013, 01:18:50 PM »

0-flux generation with shields raised seems pretty nifty. Maybe a mild speed nerf to all ships to counteract always being able to cruise with shields up?
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HELMUT

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Re: Neutrino Corp. (v. 1.7)
« Reply #474 on: September 23, 2013, 05:25:01 AM »

I don't think Neutrinos need a buff, they are already the top dogs in the sector, including other vanilla balanced mods.

I played a bit with them on 0.6. I expected them to have much more punishing CR reduction. Frigates got a 5% CR reduction per deployment, 3 times less than a hound! And without CR deterioration per second on top of that. Destroyers and Cruisers are more reasonable but capitals ships are still extremely easy to deploy which seems weird to me. The Unsung cost 15% CR, such a gigantic high tech monstrosity should require a lot more efforts to ready for battle i think. Same apply for other big ships.

The supply daily cost is reasonable though, high techs ships need to be supply hungry! However i was still surprised about the 3 daily supply for the Polarity freighter, that's a lot for such tiny ship who can't even defend itself in combat even though it's pretty handy (and dirt cheap) for additional cargo space.

Otherwise i like that Neutrino can't install the extended shield hull mod. Their tiny shields are their best strength as well as their worst weakness. However i agree that it is difficult to use such a tiny shield for the player, especially when you are getting showered with Annihilators. The AI don't seems to have that problem, and with a wider shield arc, that would be overpowered. So yeah, i like the Neutrino sigma upgrade replacement for extended shield.

Other than this... I found something weird with the Causality frigate. It got the built in phase missiles as well as the phase missile ship system. That's a bit too much i think, could replace the ship system with something else (flares maybe? the Causality is already very powerful, so avoid adding a system too strong.) Oh and also, you should put the phase missile on auto-fire on the variant. Without it, it won't launch its missiles against frigates.

Speaking of phase ships. I have yet to fight a Causality and a TheEND but i know they have the ability to stay permanently phased, which can cause some problems for the player. If it want to retreat, there is nothing i can do to prevent him to do so, he can just wander around the map without any risks. Worst, what if it don't retreat, but still stay phased the whole time just to troll the player, waiting him to give up and retreat? I wouldn't surprised it would do that kind of trick, it already do something quite similar by engaging without any ships to deplete the player CR. You should try to add a theEND in a fleet to see how it fare against the player (i'm not sure the Neutrinos AI are actually using phase ships in fleets).

The Unsung, as other have said before, is still op as hell. An Elite variant piloted by the AI managed to take down alone the whole Hegemony SDF. The problem of the Unsung is, i think, it have too many weapons mounts. The six large universals are fine, after all it is supposed to be a powerhouse. But i think it got too much rear guns. The only way to take on a Neutrino ship is to avoid the shield, which is usually facing the front, but in the case of the Unsung, even the rear is capable of taking down capital ships. The HERP emitter is pretty crazy as well, you can one hit kill everything in the game (save the Paragon with its shield).

And as someone said it before, the Drache bomber seems bugged. It can deliver its bomb but can't resupply for a second run.

Aside from this, i think everything seems pretty balanced. Ah i forgot, the Falken is pure lolz in the campaign.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 05:26:42 AM by HELMUT »
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FlashFrozen

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Re: Neutrino Corp. (v. 1.7)
« Reply #475 on: September 23, 2013, 05:58:57 AM »

Thanks for the feedback!


I played a bit with them on 0.6. I expected them to have much more punishing CR reduction. Frigates got a 5% CR reduction per deployment, 3 times less than a hound! And without CR deterioration per second on top of that. Destroyers and Cruisers are more reasonable but capitals ships are still extremely easy to deploy which seems weird to me. The Unsung cost 15% CR, such a gigantic high tech monstrosity should require a lot more efforts to ready for battle i think. Same apply for other big ships.


I was thinking of a way to balance out the usually high initial cost of the ships by needing relatively low maintenance, most ships are low crew and automated, so I can fluff it and say the drones are low maintenance. This could be troubling since I wasn't decided on how much the CR cost will be per deployment so that is up for adjustment.


The supply daily cost is reasonable though, high techs ships need to be supply hungry! However i was still surprised about the 3 daily supply for the Polarity freighter, that's a lot for such tiny ship who can't even defend itself in combat even though it's pretty handy (and dirt cheap) for additional cargo space.

Otherwise i like that Neutrino can't install the extended shield hull mod. Their tiny shields are their best strength as well as their worst weakness. However i agree that it is difficult to use such a tiny shield for the player, especially when you are getting showered with Annihilators. The AI don't seems to have that problem, and with a wider shield arc, that would be overpowered. So yeah, i like the Neutrino sigma upgrade replacement for extended shield.

Other than this... I found something weird with the Causality frigate. It got the built in phase missiles as well as the phase missile ship system. That's a bit too much i think, could replace the ship system with something else (flares maybe? the Causality is already very powerful, so avoid adding a system too strong.) Oh and also, you should put the phase missile on auto-fire on the variant. Without it, it won't launch its missiles against frigates.


I'll take a look at the polarity drone, it's supposed to be cheap so having it use more than it's worth in supplies is... unintended lol.
Personally the best part and probably hardest to notice of the sigma upgrade is the improvedweapon guidance, it's like 3-4 free skillpoints worth of autofire accuracy, and it makes even green crew seem like Simo Häyhä.

The extra phase missiles might of been a leftover from an experiment of replacing the system with a straight up weapon, I'll probably keep it as a shipsystem.
BTW all neutrino phase ships still behave like regular phaseships, so they kinda have an awkward tendency to drop phase even though they can keep it up indefinitely, a little  handicap on players I suppose =p


The Unsung, as other have said before, is still op as hell. An Elite variant piloted by the AI managed to take down alone the whole Hegemony SDF. The problem of the Unsung is, i think, it have too many weapons mounts. The six large universals are fine, after all it is supposed to be a powerhouse. But i think it got too much rear guns. The only way to take on a Neutrino ship is to avoid the shield, which is usually facing the front, but in the case of the Unsung, even the rear is capable of taking down capital ships. The HERP emitter is pretty crazy as well, you can one hit kill everything in the game (save the Paragon with its shield).

And as someone said it before, the Drache bomber seems bugged. It can deliver its bomb but can't resupply for a second run.

Aside from this, i think everything seems pretty balanced. Ah i forgot, the Falken is pure lolz in the campaign.

The arcs on the rear of the unsung are kinda mediocre, 4 medium guns if you are perfectly on its ass, but you'll still need to chew through a lot of hull. Once I figure out how to generate a proper system, I might hide the unsung somewhere.

The issue with Drache bombers is a problem brought in because of the fighter mechanic change, the last lone fighter in any wing will not repair/resupply(?)  only workaround is wings of 2 (op) or oror idk lol. I might give it some additional perks to make having one seem preferable.

Falken? Forward is the only way ;)
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Magician

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Re: Neutrino Corp. (v. 1.7)
« Reply #476 on: September 23, 2013, 06:03:41 AM »

The only reason Unsung is overpowered - his high flux dissipation. You can install most flux hungry weapons, tank damage with shield and still have almost zero flux during combat. It is sole reason he seems overpowered and nothing else. If you take for example valkyrian or council fleets - even though they have ALOT of ships with many weapon mounts, they are easy to fight against even with very small force. The reason being - their flux stats are very low. After several seconds of fire their weapons and shields begin to choke and they simply become a big sitting ducks. In any other aspect Unsung isn't that outstanding.
Still I don't mind fighting against Unsung. And if I want fair competition, I just refrain from using Unsung. So I don't really know, Vatican mk4 too considered overpowered, but it's not a normal capital you can buy or find anywhere. And thus there is no need to balance it, as Valkyrial explained in his thread.

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HELMUT

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Re: Neutrino Corp. (v. 1.7)
« Reply #477 on: September 23, 2013, 06:55:10 AM »

BTW all neutrino phase ships still behave like regular phaseships, so they kinda have an awkward tendency to drop phase even though they can keep it up indefinitely, a little  handicap on players I suppose =p

Yeah that's true, how many time i raged because that idiot Causaility pilot thought it was a good idea to unphase just in the center of a Pilum volley... Well, i hope it will do stupid mistakes like this against the player.

To answer Magician, the high flux venting is a trademark of the Neutrinos. Every single one of them can vent much faster than everything else, that's why their shields are so infuriating to take down. I'm asking for a decrease in weapons mounts because i don't think Flash will nerf the flux venting as the whole Neutrino spirit is revolving around this tactic. And when i say nerfing weapons mounts, changing two mediums mounts to small should be enough, i think. However it would be better if we could fight one to see how it fare against the player before trying to nerf it.

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Silver Silence

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Re: Neutrino Corp. (v. 1.7)
« Reply #478 on: September 23, 2013, 07:35:20 AM »

Yeah, I don't think I've ever seen an Unsung in a fleet. Maybe everyone should try walking all over it after Flash has kitted it out in the finest weapons-grade Neutrino awesomesauce that they have to offer.
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Shoat

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Re: Neutrino Corp. (v. 1.7)
« Reply #479 on: September 23, 2013, 07:38:26 AM »

The Unsung cost 15% CR, such a gigantic high tech monstrosity should require a lot more efforts to ready for battle i think. Same apply for other big ships.

High tech is better than low tech. Just as with everything else, as technology gets better and newer, less effort is needed by the user for it to work properly.
 
I'm not only talking about the fact that the Neutrino ships have A LOT of automation everywhere. Even without the automation, a high tech ship would always require less effort to ready for battle (and to keep it in shape) than a low-tech piece of crap would, just like ANY new piece of technology will require less maintenance than an older lower tech variation of the same kind.

Also the Unsung is expensive as *** (buying and fully equipping costs so much you could get an entire low-tech fleet for the same price, IF you can find one in a station to buy, that is), costs a *** ton of supplies and takes up almost 1/3rd of your fleet points (meaning you'll sometimes not even be able to deploy it for lack of points).



Anyway, I really like having a super-endgame ship available to fight against and I really love using it myself whenever I magically get lucky enough to grab one (even though I'm too bad to properly use omni-shields with low arcs, I usually just end up armor-tanking all the things). It's the perfect ship for soloing and I'd hate to have that ruined by an unnaturally high CR cost.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 07:44:59 AM by Shoat »
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