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[Locklave]

Why is there a limit on logistics systems and assuming it's a balance issue, which is my only guess, why are non combat systems included in the logistics limit?

Additional Berthing
Auxiliary Fuel tanks
Expanded Cargo Holds
Converted Cargo Bay
Expanded Crew Deck
High Resolution Sensors
Survey Equipment
Insulated Engine Assembly
ect...

Why are these included with mods that have a large impact on combat? I wish we had metrics on usage of the player base for these systems. Because for example I believe High Resolution Sensors are nearly never used, the 2 logistics limit forces required hull mods and regardless of willingness to pay the OP cost.

If I could magically have a free insulated Engine Assembly on my entire fleet would it be unbalanced and the limit didn't apply? Would it be unbalanced if I had to pay OP for it and the limit didn't apply? If the answer to either of these questions is true then explain why it has this limitation attached to it.

Does this 2 logistics hull mods limit even need to exist, if it's gone next patch does anyone really freak out about a massive meta change? I feel like this needs to be rethought.

[n3xuiz]

go to \starsector-core\data\config and edit

maxLogisticsHullmods and if you like maxPermanentHullmods

as to why is not for me to say..

[Astasia]

It is a bit of a head scratcher. The "logistics" mods tend to be QoL stuff to make the game less tedious outside of combat, and those are the ones the game limits for some reason, but not the actual combat mods that can make a ship OP. Seems backwards compared to what most games would do. Civilian ships already have really low OP so it's not like you are stacking all of them on those, and many of them are pretty situational so like throwing extra cargo on a ship without much cargo already doesn't make much sense for the OP cost. Not sure what the intent of the limit is supposed to be.

[Histidine]

If logistics mods weren't limited all non-combat ships would be nothing but logistics mods.

(tbh the underlying issue is that you can operate on the basis that non-combat ships will never encounter combat, but that's never gonna get fixed so)

[Locklave]

If non combat ships are the only concern then the entire Logistics limit should be removed from the game. Forbid a non fighting ship be better in non fighting situations. It sucks enough that support ships are effectively stat sticks. If the limit was removed there might be actual discussions about how to outfit them to better support the playstyle. The ships OP would limit the choices enough, you could never have everything you wanted.

I really believe now that the limit was set back when it had an actual impact on the game. Now it's just a relic of the past that limits play for no actual reason.

[SafariJohn]

It forces you to choose between buffing your logistics ships in their specialty or giving them more general fleet-boosting hullmods like Surveying Equipment or High Resolution Sensors.

If you want to argue against the logistics hullmod limit, just point out that logistics hullmods built-in with SPs don't count towards it.

[Locklave]

It forces you to choose between buffing your logistics ships in their specialty or giving them more general fleet-boosting hullmods like Surveying Equipment or High Resolution Sensors.

If you want to argue against the logistics hullmod limit, just point out that logistics hullmods built-in with SPs don't count towards it.

Good point. That didn't even occur to me.

[FooF]

SafariJohn nailed it. It creates meaningful choice rather than just packing as many as possible on non-combat ships. It also factors into some combat ship builds because Capitals, especially, could stack quite a few if there were no limits.

[Astasia]

The issue with those arguments is that civilian ships only have the OP to slot like 3 logistics mods anyway. You can't just fill them full of logistics mods, you would have to make a choice on which ones to get anyway. Stacking them on a combat ship means sacrificing combat power to add non-combat functionality, which is itself a meaningful choice we should have. The utility of a capitol ship that has spent half it's OP on expanded cargo/fuel/crew and sensor/survey mods is highly questionable compared to using several much cheaper civilian ships instead without negatively impacting combat strength, but having the choice to do that seems like it should be a thing.

[Voyager I]

The issue with those arguments is that civilian ships only have the OP to slot like 3 logistics mods anyway.

This becomes less true once you start looking at the cruiser and capital class civilian ships. The Prometheus has 95 ordinance points.

The logistics mod limit forces you to make meaningful choices about how you outfit your support vessels - they can't be militarized and efficient and have surveying gear (unless you're willing to spend SP to make an elite custom support ship, which is a choice in its own right), so instead you have to decide what you need them to do for you and design them according to the role they will fill in your fleet.

[Yunru]

I have solar shields, efficiency, and [insert relevant resource space increase] that I want on my ship, yet I can only fit two. That is a meaningful choice.

Take away the limit, and I can just fit all three.

[Astasia]

This becomes less true once you start looking at the cruiser and capital class civilian ships. The Prometheus has 95 ordinance points.

It really doesn't change. Augmented Drive Field is 40 OP on a capitol (which you will probably want because they are so slow) with Expanded Cargo Hold being 25. You can still only fit 3 on there, maybe 4 or 5 if you pick the smallest ones and live with a slow ship.

I have solar shields, efficiency, and [insert relevant resource space increase] that I want on my ship, yet I can only fit two. That is a meaningful choice.

Take away the limit, and I can just fit all three.

"All three" like almost half the hull mods in the game aren't logistics. When do you consider Augmented Drive Field, Surveying Equipment, High Resolution Sensors, Insulated Engine Assembly, or Militarized Subsystems? Some of those you really need on all ships or multiple ships to be effective. Would being able to equip 3 instead of 2 really make the decision less meaningful (and if so why are S-mods able to bypass the limit)? Are you also really going to argue that having Safety Overrides, Unstable Injector or Reinforced Bulkheads aren't a valid use of non-combat ship OP so they can escape battle or survive when needed? Taking something to help keep your ship alive when you need to flee or even more space for fuel/cargo/whatever should be meaningful choice.

The OP system already creates the situations where you have to choose what to put on a ship. The logistics limit doesn't add anything to the game, it just arbitrarily limits the choices we could have without it in a way that doesn't really make sense given the non-combat nature of those specific mods.

[Hiruma Kai]

Some of those you really need on all ships or multiple ships to be effective. Would being able to equip 3 instead of 2 really make the decision less meaningful (and if so why are S-mods able to bypass the limit)?

In regards to story points explicitly allowing logistics mods  to exceed the cap, it is likely because they're a limited resource shared between ships (and other things like officers).  Putting an s-mod on one of your logistics ships potentially means not having a combat s-mod on a combat ship, or an officer without the maximum number of elite skills.  That is where the decision making comes in.

And its true, you could use OP as the only limiting factor to logistics hull mods.  As you say, perhaps it is only an additional logistics mod on a Prometheus or Atlas, but smaller ships would definitely benefit.  I guess my typical late game Colossus, which is intended to be run with capitals which have burn 7 anyways, would be running Efficiency Overhaul (9), Expanded Cargo Holds (15), Solar Shielding (9), High Resolution Sensors (9), and Insulated Engine Assembly (9) if I've got less than 5 capitals.   That totals 51 OP out of 55 spent.  Unfortunately, unstable injector, militarized subsystems + safety overrides still doesn't really make it fast enough to escape a truly lost fight against frigates and destroyers, and it also cuts into my fleet wide combat bonuses.  Not sure if there is anything else I'd want to slap on it for a capital containing combat fleet.

[Yunru]

When do you consider Augmented Drive Field, Surveying Equipment, High Resolution Sensors, Insulated Engine Assembly, or Militarized Subsystems?

In order: I don't, just use Tugs; On dedicated ships, in place of whatever resource boosting hullmod would be on a hauler; See previous answer; Insulated what now?; I have combat ships (and that one skill), I don't need to Militarized my civilian vessels too.

[gedsaro]

In regards to wanting to stick survey equipment on everything, I used to want to do this to, but really if you get the skill for it (it what? halves the cost i think?), and just put it on a couple of your larger ships, (or a few more smaller ones) it will be REALLY easy to get the equipment and supplies costs down to, or near the minimum 5 on almost anything but the largest normal planets, and gas giants. Hell, the first time I stacked it on everything I realised after I was Wasting op by putting survey on everything once i got the skill, because it was too much overkill. Now, I porbably wont put it on anything, I'll just take an Apoge(sp?) or two, that will lower survey costs, and the extra supplies I can take by bringing an Atlas or two will cover anything extra.

Hell, bring a couple salvage rigs and have the salvage skills, and you will return will more fuel and supplies than you left with if you want, and thats with surveying every planet along the way.