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[JUDGE! slowpersun]

And lastly:  Epic Game Store has shaken up the industry getting their Epic Game Store Exclusive titles, with generous terms for the Developer, AND money forwarded ahead of time to help fuel their work.  It doesn't STAY exclusive, and after a year is open to be hosted on other sites like Steam.

That ONLY exists because of how freakishly profitable Fortnite turned out to be.  They're seeding out that money to draw games in!  They're INCENTIVISING the exact thing that Starsector needs incentivized!  That piece of the development that's just... a bit too expensive to pay for out-of-pocket.  That hurdle that's just a bit too tall, but if you had a bit of a nest egg...

Epic is totally full of ****, they just got lucky with Fortnite (I mean, the game originally was a tower defense game, Battle Royale was practically an accident).  Epic's real product is Unreal Engine.  But if you think they have player's interest in mind, why did they sue Apple store and just get laughed out of court for the lawsuit?  Epic doesn't give a **** about players any more than Valve does...

Don't believe me?
Seed out some copies to Streamers.
NOT strategy eggheads like us... just normal streamers and influencers.
Get their HONEST feedback.

What Sseth's video wasn't enough for you?  Did it ever occur to you that maybe the devs are deliberately NOT distributing copies to streamers until they feel that the game is basically ready for release?  Because streamers are as about as normal a player as "strategy eggheads."  And arguably this game isn't necessarily a strategy game, but that is a debate for another time.  As for influencers... ROFLOLOHAHAHAHLOL!!!  Good joke dude!

... so....  **shrugs**  ... be proactive?

Considering how much time the devs spend on these forums, they are DEFINITELY proactive.  Proactively improving their product, I might add, not selling out to the man for a quick buck... When game is good and ready, then I'm sure they'll "sell out."  But stop confusing a labor of love with a product to be punted!  Man, more peeps just need to watch Silicon Valley, I guess.  Small software business includes small game companies...

[Yunru]

As part of those who mod the game, your comments on what's "needed" for accessibility feel both uninformed and insulting.

I mean... you gotta pick one.

You can either have:

a) What you've got now, and a forum FULL of hacks, config edits, and ways to work around the limitations of the game engine/framework/UI
b) A different game engine/framework/UI, which costs money

A! A! A-A-A-A-A!
A by a landslide. Literally everything about the game is accessible, provided Alex gives us access, all of it is in the same coding language, and for surface level content not even that is needed.

Not seeing any hacks though?

[dgchessman2]

Thats just not true. Starsector's modding is exceptionally clean compared to most other games. In terms of config edits, there is a single thing that needs to be changed with a basic text editor on heavily modded games (its not even needed for the first 10 or so) and that is literally it. There's not a forum full of hacks, just easy to download mods/libraries, a Q&A section, and a thriving mod community (seriously have you seen the mod listing page or the discord chat channel on modding? and thats just the english language mods!). Meanwhile the vast majority (all but like 3) of those mods all work perfectly together with no mod load order needed, no memory conflicts, and no need to mess around.

The game is so easy to use mods with that, even though there have been 2 or 3 good community mod managers including Nexus, most people don't even bother to use them because its not needed.

...I think this may have been taken the wrong way.
I'm not suggesting that Starsector modding is somehow... wrong... or unclean...

But if I google 'Starsector performance issues' or 'Starsector video card issues' or 'Starsector RAM issues' or...
... I get YEARS of the same discussions about the same problems and the same answers about what little the end user can do.

A forum 'full' of stuff like this was the wrong phrasing.  It's full in the sense of... at capacity.  You can't have the same graphical / RAM limitations with forum posts going back 6 years!  Or even further!
We're supposed to be close to 1.0!  There isn't room for that kind of unresolved limitations on modern hardware, because hardware isn't going to go retro to accommodate Starsector, and nobody is going to yank out their GTX5000 to drop in any older card.

Robust community.  Great forums.  Nice people.

.... lots, and lots of unresolved hardware limitations that come up over and over again.

And I'm not suggesting that somehow updating the engine being used or assets utilized is going to make modding easier.  That also seems to have gotten lost in translation.
It's great that it's accessible!  And everything WE HAVE ACCESS TO works great!

That's the key phrase.
Some things just can't be modded out.

[dgchessman2]

See?  I'm not going at this from the Modder angle.
And I'm not even going at this from a Player angle.
I'm trying hard to look at this from the Development angle.

What modders have access to is fantastic.
... but I also have seen how far modding can go.  Skyrim, Rimworld, Stellaris.  While these games are DRASTICALLY different and I'm in NO WAY suggesting some sort of easy fix/parallel/etc, I'm simply pointing out that EVERYTHING, including the things that work so fantastically ('cause they really do) are STILL limited by the same Java restrictions.

Hell, guys.  I can't even have a missile button.  None of us can.
We get Fire, Shield, and Change Weapon Group.
Why?  It's hardcoded.  End of the line.

If all that is wanted is to quietly wrap up to 1.0 and maybe flesh out some story?  None of my suggestions will help or apply.
Totally useless, pointless, etc.

But this game CAN'T BE MORE SUCCESSFUL THAN IT ALREADY IS.  It's stuck.
Kenshi is the perfect example!

Robust modding, great concept... paralyzed by engine limitations.
They're gonna do Kenshi 2.  Cool on them.  That seems a bit extreme, but it works for them.
They HAVE to.  There's no working around it.

With 1.0 so close... it seems like a good time to mention that we're not ever gonna GET to v1.5
There's no room for expansion without banging heads on those hardware limitations.
Over and over and over.
Every. Single.  Time. The. Game. Is. Played.
That isn't going to GET better.

Why are the controls so restricted? Because Java
Why is the UI so bad?  Because Java
Why is the memory usage so horrible?  Because Java
Why do I get memory leak warnings?  Because working around Java issues.
Why does my framerate and idle suddenly drop to basically nothing, but my system is utilizing a SINGLE core, and less than 20% of the allocated 8 gigs of RAM?

Because Java.

[JUDGE! slowpersun]

Kenshi is the perfect example!

Robust modding, great concept... paralyzed by engine limitations.
They're gonna do Kenshi 2.  Cool on them.  That seems a bit extreme, but it works for them.
They HAVE to.  There's no working around it.

I dunno if Kenshi is the best example, it is basically a completed game.  But at least is is an example.  And not "gonna do Kenshi 2."  They are literally doing it right now, as we speak (or would be if it was holidays, but perhaps some are literally working as I type this).  But yeah, that game does have some significant issues with underlying Havok physics engine, although I dunno if that is Havok Devs fault or Kenshi Devs.  Prolly why they are doing Kenshi 2!

Why are the controls so restricted? Because Java
Why is the UI so bad?  Because Java
Why is the memory usage so horrible?  Because Java
Why do I get memory leak warnings?  Because working around Java issues.
Why does my framerate and idle suddenly drop to basically nothing, but my system is utilizing a SINGLE core, and less than 20% of the allocated 8 gigs of RAM?

Because Java.

I dunno if all of that can be blamed on Java (although I'm less familiar with Java, so maybe that is root source).  But memory usage being horrible could be an optimization problem.  Memory leaks could be bugs.  Utilizing a single core these days?  Rimworld commits same sin, really chaps me nethers why Rimworld grinds to a slow crawl instead of utilizing multiple cores (or Stellaris, but dunno if that is a multi-core issue, paradox code seems to be an insane person's artwork sometimes... held together with spit, poop, bailing wire and duct tape...).

[dgchessman2]

It's cool to be perfectly happy with where the game is at.

But when I play, I see features spliced in.
I see duplicate screens and tabs.
I see a UI that desperately needs a total overhaul.
When I'm making a ship loadout, a lot of the MOST important answers I need aren't easily available.
...I've gotta drop into the Simulation Mode a half dozen times to really get a feel for it.
Because 'fast' isn't actually a projectile speed.  And 'poor' doesn't tell me if the spread is going to be useful, or crippling.
Because I want to be able to see my Planet info AND my Intel.

And ALL of those things I can roll with.  Honestly.  I'd love to see them improved.. but I'll play anyways.

But watching my framerate drop to nothing?
Seeing a Video Settings that has... what.... 2 options?
And getting such POOR system performance and optimization out of SUCH a good game?

I have no idea how anyone can be sipping their coffee and saying 'Everything is fine' with flames like that licking at their feet.

Yeah, it'll get to 1.0
Are we gonna see a sales surge?  No.  Why would we?
And it'll get to 1.1
Is that when it goes viral and the Dev gets the financial recompense that they deserve?
No.  Why would they?

The game has made the sales that it's going to make.  I'm sure it'll still trickle in over time.

I don't like Epic Game Store one little tiny bit, and I think that viral media is garbage.  BUT!
If I set aside my personal dislike, I can see that some of the most fundamental struggles of this game COULD be addressed with a budget.
That Starsector could ABSOLUTELY pull a Valheim, go viral, and sell 23 million copies on 1995 graphics, and OG Laura Croft bodies.

But... not like this.
ALL of those opportunities are locked behind a Paywall

I totally understand if they'd just prefer to wrap up the project.
But dammit.... I'd much rather see Fractal Software 2.0

I'm almost SCREAMING in frustration over here for the Dev to TAKE MY MONEY PLEASE.
I've got over 800 games on Steam.  I stream.  I review.  I do backerkit.  I kickstart.
And it's Christmas day.  I've got money to drop on a game.  Or several.

But it can't be Starsector.
There's just.... nowhere to go without ripping up the floorboards first.

[dgchessman2]

I'd drop another $30 in a heartbeat to have Fractal become a 4 Employee team.
I'd rush to load Kickstarter and put in $50 to help test the Alpha of an optimized Starsector.
...I'd literally PAY to get to help.

I'm hoping that Starsector 1.3 isn't where this EV: Nova ends its story.
It's nowhere near end-of-life as a game concept.

But there can't BE a fundraiser, or an Exclusive, or an anything if it doesn't come with 'New and Improved' slapped all over it.
Those limitations are built in.  And that breaks my heart.

[JUDGE! slowpersun]

But watching my framerate drop to nothing?
Seeing a Video Settings that has... what.... 2 options?
And getting such POOR system performance and optimization out of SUCH a good game?

I suspect much of the polish will occur with 0.99f1a6 release... but as for VRAM issues, they are apparently deliberately set low in order to allow more crappy systems to run game/expand customer base.  Most experienced players just open the settings JSON and increase VRAM being used (directions are out there, but prolly have to Google for them since forum search function not so great).  IIRC, game just uses 1 GB, prolly want to pump that up to at least 2 GB, if not more (I run game at 4 GB, allows game to run much longer without VRAM issues).  Just remember it's powers of 2 so not 4000, its 4096 (or 2048 or whatever).  Although if you put in 2000 or 4000, shouldn't affect game too much...

I'm almost SCREAMING in frustration over here for the Dev to TAKE MY MONEY PLEASE.
I've got over 800 games on Steam.  I stream.  I review.  I do backerkit.  I kickstart.
And it's Christmas day.  I've got money to drop on a game.  Or several.

But it can't be Starsector.
There's just.... nowhere to go without ripping up the floorboards first.

Well, there is that sale on Steam until Jan. 5, got a few games 50% that I have my eyes on (lookin' at you, Cloudpunk!).  But I actually have mad respect for devs scruples, they could have gone the Patreon route and milked peeps forever.  Instead you pay a flat rate for a product that is deliberately priced low since independently released and don't have to pay distributor.  Don't get me wrong, that pay website janky as hell.  But unlike some small game studios who cheap out and drop their forums for Discord, these devs actually have respect for their fanbase (plus, kinda need fans to crowdsource bugs).  And yes, if you are unaware, I am vehemently opposed to Discord, so maybe I'm biased.  In any case, my rants about Discord are for another time and place (but since they about to go public, I see no reason to trust a word that is written in any of their press releases.  Discord seed funders/backers want their money back with interest!).

And I was always more of an EV Override kinda guy, just faster to type nova than override...

[dgchessman2]

I've done all my file edits.  I'm still getting game slowdowns while the system is using far, far less than even what it has allocated.
That's not even 'optimized'.  It doesn't need to use what I'm giving it more efficiently.  It needs to actually USE more than 25% of what I've given it!

... I won't go as far as claiming that there is some perfect fix to keep older computers happy.  I don't speak Magic Computer Language, and I'm grossly aware of it.

..... but like... isn't the current version of Starsector (or the 1.0) a perfectly-wrapped ode to old hardware?

Like... if you're running this on a potato, or a multimeter or something, you're livin' it UP!  AAA Grade Badassdom.

I'm just saying that INSTEAD of moving on to Starsector 2.0, or a new project...
... maybe pull out those limiters you've put in, keep a legacy version available, and see how awesome the game could be with REAL ACTUAL GRAPHICS SETTINGS!
I'm a big fan of tooltips... but how about tooltip .gifs?  Or tooltip videos?
Popup menus?  A draggable popout window for my inventory?  Utilizing a second screen?

And I KNOW that if you give modders more to work with, they'll jump all over it.
So... start brining in Modder content as Official, and stop having to come up with the ideas.

There's SO much content AVAILABLE.
If the game was CAPABLE of utilizing the tools.

And yeah, Patreon... ehh... that's one of the few things I won't buy into.
I'm glad they haven't milked it, or abandoned it.
I far more than just appreciate the work already done.

But everything has a cost.
Be it money-up-front.
Paid Expansions.
Exclusives.
...or severe graphics limitations.

If I were them, I'd finish Starsector Java Edition, and I'd start working on Starsector 1.0 (Now with God Rays!).
I'd make Starsector Java Edition free, or drop it down to $5.  Give current owners a discount on the new effort/progress.
Find a small studio to team up with like DeadToast or Pavonis.  Ahhh, no no, I've got it!  Honestly they need to hook up with the Trese Brothers.
You guys would get along like a house on fire!  And the Trese Brothers products and work ethic are just.... stellar.

Take the leap.

And if you've gotta get assurances, downpayments, whatever... get that Kickstarter going.  Start offering pre-sales.  Sign a bloody sellout contract if that's the ONLY way to make it happen!

Starsector deserves to actually utilize more than one core before it dies.  ^_~

[Histidine]

This posting is going in so many directions I'm not sure what the specific mappings for proposal -> expected result are. Or even the claims being made.
Maybe you should slow down and order your thoughts for writing?

A few points in no particular order:
- Claiming in first post the game has "all the polish that it needs", then saying later that the "UI needs a lotlotlot of work to be ready to be released into the wild"

- Switching to a non-Java engine would not in itself fix the UI or the controls, or make them more moddable (this claim alone leads me to a strong suspicion that technical solutions are being proposed without the proposer understanding their benefits and drawbacks). What it would do, barring a fully functional Java wrapper for the mod API, is guarantee the mass extinction of the mod ecosystem.

- My own impression from Steam forums (though you can obviously see the non-representativeness and conflict of interest here) of several games, and elsewhere is that: On the list of things that will make the gamer base happy about Starsector, Epic exclusivity for any period of time whatsoever is at the bottom.

All that said:

Alex, if you want to modernise the engine and are willing to have a six-month debugging period with the userbase, I may know someone who's gotten the game working on Java 18, with ZGC (the new scalable low-latency garbage collector).

[Wispborne]

I've done all my file edits.  I'm still getting game slowdowns while the system is using far, far less than even what it has allocated.
That's not even 'optimized'.  It doesn't need to use what I'm giving it more efficiently.  It needs to actually USE more than 25% of what I've given it!

So you're using JRE 8, the guide to which is pinned in the Discord #modded_gameplay channel and specifically addresses major slowdown caused by using mods, usually triggered after a battle?

I'm honestly not sure what you're talking about with most of your points. Needing old hardware? I'm using a 10th gen Intel and RTX 3000 series laptop GPU and it's generally running at my max, 165fps.
The only thing it runs poorly on is integrated graphics and AMD GPUs, because AMD can't be assed to fix their OpenGL drivers. Would it be great to update to a newer version of Java with a newer version of LWJGL and even switch to Vulcan? Sure. Is it necessary? No.

You might also want to consider how successful Starsector is right now. There's a highly active Discord server, lots of mods that are regularly updated, and Alex is apparently still making enough money to work on it full-time.
And it hasn't been marketed AT ALL. Buying it is a pain, updating it is a pain, it's not on Steam or anything.

I think you are greatly overestimating the impact that having a modern engine would have.

edit: Oh yeah and @Alex in case you weren't aware, a LOT of players are running the game under JRE 8 v271. Linky link here to the aforementioned guide. There are rare issues with it, one caused by using very old integrated cards or something, but there is a fix for that that Himemi found.

[MesoTroniK]

There are so many points here, that I simply cannot make time to reply to them all or even really the vast majority of them especially when in a ramble format across multiple posts like that.

But what I will do is address the elephant in the room and ask you two simple questions. What are your system specs, and what is your mod list? I have a feeling knowing that info would be quite enlightening.

[Dark.Revenant]

Java causes virtually none of the problems you are experiencing.  The old JRE7 might very well be doing that, but I strongly suspect Alex plans to modernize that aspect of the game prior to release.

The old graphics framework, yes, has some issues with modern cards.  There are various paths that could be taken to fix this.

Starsector's UI is far more extensive than most small-team indie games and, despite that, a lot better than most of them.  It doesn't hold up compared to some AAA or large indie studio products, but that's because those teams are organized from the beginning for dedicated UX engineers working in parallel with everyone else.  And even then, they *** it up quite often.

Your proposals would, as you imply, necessitate a complete reorganization of the company and team and basically a total do-over of the game's development.  Alex repeatedly refused to do this earlier on for, amongst many reasons, budget concerns, but even now his primary reason to avoid this is that he simply wouldn't enjoy it.  Running that kind of team means that you can't really do much development yourself.  That's just the reality of management.

Even supposing that Alex were willing to hand over the reins, now would be an awful time to do so, with the original game nearly feature-complete.  Perhaps a follow-up title can go in such a direction, but certainly not Starsector.

[dgchessman2]

The old graphics framework, yes, has some issues with modern cards.  There are various paths that could be taken to fix this.

Starsector's UI is far more extensive than most small-team indie games and, despite that, a lot better than most of them.  It doesn't hold up compared to some AAA or large indie studio products, but that's because those teams are organized from the beginning for dedicated UX engineers working in parallel with everyone else.  And even then, they *** it up quite often.

Your proposals would, as you imply, necessitate a complete reorganization of the company and team and basically a total do-over of the game's development.  Alex repeatedly refused to do this earlier on for, amongst many reasons, budget concerns, but even now his primary reason to avoid this is that he simply wouldn't enjoy it.  Running that kind of team means that you can't really do much development yourself.  That's just the reality of management.

Even supposing that Alex were willing to hand over the reins, now would be an awful time to do so, with the original game nearly feature-complete.  Perhaps a follow-up title can go in such a direction, but certainly not Starsector.

Ahh, see?  This is good.  Cuts right to the heart of things.
Am I oversimplifying that Java is the root of everything?  >_>  Yeah... I'm definitely doing that.  Apologies.

I definitely understand WHY he didn't!  I even respect it.  On a PERSONAL level he's got creative control.  It is at-his-will.
So if this is where Starsector as we know it stops?  Okay.  That works.

I'd be pleased to know that a new, updated, shiny Starsector was in the works.  Do I expect it?  Noooope!
Would it burn him out?  Take him in other directions?  Maybe.  Getting a team together is always going to be a challenge.  And if he doesn't have the confidence in those people... that just might not be in the cards.  So then... perhaps Starsector stops here, and picks up when it picks up.

.... I just... I don't WANT Starsector 2  **laughs**  And I know that's specific.

Graphics
Gameplay
Overall Mission
Diversity of Mods

These are all solid in my book. 

But I don't think that these fixes/compromises are going to happen while the plane is still in the air.
I could be wrong.
And, in all likelihood, the game will round-out, stay small, and stay happy  ^__^


Again, I just WISH that Fractal 2.0 was an option, rather than Starsector 1.2, or Starsector 2.
Doesn't mean it's a reasonable want.  I wish he was able to BE excited, and be around people who were excited about it.

But it's Christmas, dammit!  **laughs**  Let me wish a little...

[JUDGE! slowpersun]

But it's Christmas, dammit!  **laughs**  Let me wish a little...

Just wish reasonably.  Think ponies, not unicorns...