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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Suggestion: Fractal Software 2.0  (Read 4284 times)

dgchessman2

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Suggestion: Fractal Software 2.0
« on: December 25, 2021, 06:44:39 AM »

Hey guys

I've seen the forum and FAQ talk about Steam greenlighting, and while the newest information on Steam percentages and Epic Games (1 year) Exclusive contracts is promising... that wouldn't really fix anything, would it?

Everything that I can see that needs work in Starsector (and let's be clear, I LOVE this game!) requires fundamental work!

The Map and Intel tabs especially need intense work.
There are glaring holes in the data the player receives, and their ability to plan/process.  The alternative is the easy-to-access Battle Simulator, but in a way that's a loose, time-consuming, colloquial solution.
Graphics support are so archaic as to be nearly impossible.
Umm... multithreading anyone?

I could throw down suggestions.  Real, honest, shiny suggestions.  For instance... I bet that your Battle Simulator use could be cut in half or more by having a dedicated window in the outfitter that shows your ship fighting with the weapons as you're equipping them.  Don't want to list or standardize projectile speeds?  Want to see how those fighters are actually gonna behave?  You only need a few seconds glance to process that info.

There's so, so many of these things....

..... so I'm just gonna come out and say it:  Fractal Software 2.0 - Electric Boogaloo

I'm serious.  Yes, actually.

Look, this game is NOT an 'alpha'.  It's got all the polish that it needs.  It fills a niche that isn't really filled elsewhere.

SO GO TALK TO PARADOX, or KLEI, HOODED HORSE, or whomever you NEED to!
There's ONLY one way forward, and that's the actual game framework.  Time is only going to stress that frame more and more and more.
And I don't mean re-invention.  I mean go all Rimworld, get your team together, get a publisher, SHOW them the work that's already done, angle towards your Epic Game Store 1 year exclusive (I don't like them, but... I understand the assurances they offer are helpful as a Dev)... and don't make Starsector 2.0... make Starsector under a new and reformed Studio.  GET the manpower you need!  Have a kickstarter if you really don't think you can afford the assets.

But.... the game itself is REALLY to be pitched.  It's beyond ready!
So take it to PAX and put it on the main expo hall.
~PLEASE!!

Modders will help gleefully if you GIVE them a framework to work under.  If you give them a weapon template that includes all those missing things that are hard to make happen under the current ui.

And THEN you can focus entirely on a system of psionic skills that are only given by Fallen Space Empires!

I see pages and pages of 'suggestions', and one forum post after another about limitations.

We need this.
Starsector needs this!

Hell, even if you just ASKED for volunteers, I'm sure that help would come pouring in!  Whatever path you want to take... just please get Starsector ready for 2021, modern graphics cards, the ability to bind mouse buttons, flexible UI, and... let's not say this TOO loud... Steam Workshop?

Or, another way to put it:
Please, please, please take my money.
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SCC

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Re: Suggestion: Fractal Software 2.0
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2021, 06:50:37 AM »

Just wait for Starsector 2.

Grievous69

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Re: Suggestion: Fractal Software 2.0
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2021, 06:56:03 AM »

Just wait for Starsector 2.
We'll obviously get Starsector Remastered before that, come on let's act serious here guys.
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Yunru

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Re: Suggestion: Fractal Software 2.0
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2021, 06:58:36 AM »

Imagine claiming a game with a barely implemented story and no end-game has enough polish.

Really begs what the state of the industry is like (looking at you, EA).

dgchessman2

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Re: Suggestion: Fractal Software 2.0
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2021, 06:59:59 AM »

Imagine claiming a story with a barely implemented story and no end-game has enough polish.

Really begs what the state of the industry is like (looking at you, EA).

**cackles**  Imagine thinking this is a story/progression game!

As a sandbox, this is beyond amazing!  And... oh look!  It's right there in the game description!

"Starsector is a single-player sandbox style space role-playing game with strategic elements."
« Last Edit: December 25, 2021, 07:02:35 AM by dgchessman2 »
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LinWasTaken

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Re: Suggestion: Fractal Software 2.0
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2021, 09:29:02 AM »

Imagine claiming a story with a barely implemented story and no end-game has enough polish.

Really begs what the state of the industry is like (looking at you, EA).
looking at you Tod.

JUDGE! slowpersun

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Re: Suggestion: Fractal Software 2.0
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2021, 09:41:56 AM »

No, Nien, Nyet, No, Non, No!  Game already has basically every steam has to offer (except mod market and perhaps further exposure via Steam marketing), all with a significantly lower cut=lower price.  Game would have to cost between $19-$22.50 American if on Steam, plus would have to generate a crazy amount of keys for basically every player that has bought a copy of game.  Epic Store has same issue (heck, I've seen a few games double dip and do Epic Store, then to Steam Store).  Fractalsoftworks seems to be doing just fine (although they pay website is kinda hilariously late 90s/early 00s!).  Also, don't suggest Paradox as a publisher, that company has some serious corporate ownership issues, especially when corporate leans on the subsidiary game studios (though I am admittedly prolly biased against Paradox, but still, check out some of the recent Paradox controversies, very entertaining).  I mean, game could have always gone Patreon route, which it appears to have purposefully avoided (dunno why, but the Patreon model of game development is, IMO, a recipe for infinite design, and little production, games being developed on Patreon never seem to get delivered...).

As for other suggestions, well, this game is arguably in beta now since it so close to 1.0... but game isn't even finished and you want a sequel?  Patience ain't just a virtue, it's a necessity sometimes!

Or, another way to put it:
Please, please, please take my money.

Pretty sure the game already did if you on these forums...
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dgchessman2

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Re: Suggestion: Fractal Software 2.0
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2021, 11:23:21 AM »

No, Nien, Nyet, No, Non, No!  Game already has basically every steam has to offer (except mod market and perhaps further exposure via Steam marketing), all with a significantly lower cut=lower price.  Game would have to cost between $19-$22.50 American if on Steam, plus would have to generate a crazy amount of keys for basically every player that has bought a copy of game.  Epic Store has same issue (heck, I've seen a few games double dip and do Epic Store, then to Steam Store).  Fractalsoftworks seems to be doing just fine (although they pay website is kinda hilariously late 90s/early 00s!).  Also, don't suggest Paradox as a publisher, that company has some serious corporate ownership issues, especially when corporate leans on the subsidiary game studios (though I am admittedly prolly biased against Paradox, but still, check out some of the recent Paradox controversies, very entertaining).  I mean, game could have always gone Patreon route, which it appears to have purposefully avoided (dunno why, but the Patreon model of game development is, IMO, a recipe for infinite design, and little production, games being developed on Patreon never seem to get delivered...).

As for other suggestions, well, this game is arguably in beta now since it so close to 1.0... but game isn't even finished and you want a sequel?  Patience ain't just a virtue, it's a necessity sometimes!

Or, another way to put it:
Please, please, please take my money.

Pretty sure the game already did if you on these forums...

I think you need to read that again, my friend.  I'm not at ALL suggesting a sequel.
Right now Starsector is in a Content Update phase, and has been for quite a while.  That's great and all... but as those years slip by, it's more than just their payment page that's getting aged.
They need to get Starsector 1.0 out of Java Runtime, utilizing modern processors and video cards properly, and a major UI update (or at least the framework) so that modders can ALSO add to the content updates.  The example, again, is Rimworld.  Vanilla is.... okay.  Modded, it's epic.

Do I want them to go Paradox / Epic / Kickstarter / etc. to make it happen?  No.
Do I want to wait another 3 years for Starsector 1.0 to finally come out... and quietly whither on vine because it's another 3 years out-of-touch with modern hardware?  No.

We can't mod out these problems.
It'll take TIME, manpower, publishing power, etc. to go back and get all of that caught back up to modern gaming.

That means SOME sort of payroll scheme or another.
A studio of half a dozen people working full-time.

I'll keep my Starsector: Legacy around.
But I'd pay full-price again to have it using all the cores on my processor, and utilizing even... ***... more than 10% of my RAM or graphics power?!?

Only way I see that happening is if Starsector 1.0 doesn't just get a quiet release on a quite, personal site.
Game content can be 100% identical.  No changes.

But everything about the underlying engine, coding, UI, integration, and accessibility for modders needs to get into the 2000's
Let's face it:  It's currently stuck somewhere more akin to EV: Nova than it is anything else..... which was published 20 years ago.
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Yunru

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Re: Suggestion: Fractal Software 2.0
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2021, 11:27:06 AM »

As part of those who mod the game, your comments on what's "needed" for accessibility feel both uninformed and insulting.

JUDGE! slowpersun

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Re: Suggestion: Fractal Software 2.0
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2021, 11:56:02 AM »

As for other suggestions, well, this game is arguably in beta now since it so close to 1.0... but game isn't even finished and you want a sequel?   
I think you need to read that again, my friend.  I'm not at ALL suggesting a sequel.

I guess in retrospect you weren't, but suggesting "Fractal Software 2.0 - Electric Boogaloo" is kinda ambiguous, which I hastily interpreted as a sequel.  You don't 2.0 a company/corporation/business.  You either change the business name but keep the same old schtick, or merge/get acquired (unless you are suggesting a pivot due to market changes, but dunno how one pivots a game).  Google to Alphabet, Facebook to Meta, Phillip Morris to Altria, etc.  But one shouldn't assume that staffing up automatically equals a better business.  Especially if a business isn't trying to scale.  Sometimes the best solution is to not scale.  Not claiming to be anti-capitalism or anything, but just because something isn't growing one shouldn't assume it's stagnating.

Also, anything 2: Electric Boogaloo is kind of a charged phrase politically right now in some countries, might be better to avoid using that as metaphor next time... not that I have any reason to care about someone's politics, but peeps be crazy these days.

They need to get Starsector 1.0 out of Java Runtime, utilizing modern processors and video cards properly, and a major UI update (or at least the framework) so that modders can ALSO add to the content updates.  The example, again, is Rimworld.  Vanilla is.... okay.  Modded, it's epic.

That's assuming they want to update stuff.  It has been stated on multiple occasions that game design compromises have been make to allow game to run on low-budget systems, if only to expand customer base.  Unless Java Runtime is gonna be depreciated sometime soon, why reinvent wheel?

But everything about the underlying engine, coding, UI, integration, and accessibility for modders needs to get into the 2000's
Let's face it:  It's currently stuck somewhere more akin to EV: Nova than it is anything else..... which was published 20 years ago.

Perhaps some people are playing it specifically for the nostalgia (really not EV anything, since it not one ship, it's a campaign layer and a battle layer; I would say more Sid Meier's Pirates! than EV series, but obvious EV was in space, Pirates! wasn't).
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SCC

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Re: Suggestion: Fractal Software 2.0
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2021, 12:08:24 PM »

Right now Starsector is in a Content Update phase, and has been for quite a while.  That's great and all... but as those years slip by, it's more than just their payment page that's getting aged.
They need to get Starsector 1.0 out of Java Runtime, utilizing modern processors and video cards properly, and a major UI update (or at least the framework) so that modders can ALSO add to the content updates.
That sounds like remaking the game from the ground up; either because it has to be done, or just to be sure stuff doesn't break when unexpected.

dgchessman2

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Re: Suggestion: Fractal Software 2.0
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2021, 02:46:48 PM »

As part of those who mod the game, your comments on what's "needed" for accessibility feel both uninformed and insulting.

I mean... you gotta pick one.

You can either have:

a) What you've got now, and a forum FULL of hacks, config edits, and ways to work around the limitations of the game engine/framework/UI
b) A different game engine/framework/UI, which costs money

I guess I used the term 2.0 because the business model itself would have to change.  It would need to stop being a passion project, working with what is most accessible, and transition into something intentionally made.

That means a Publisher.  I'm sorry, it's so, so difficult to get the proper engine, the proper assets, and (most people prefer) the pre-made framework ready so that you can spend as little time getting the new engine ready, and as much time as possible getting the old material moved into the new gilded frame.

That's going to require a biiiiigggg leap of faith.  And, yeah, in a lot of ways it IS a new game.  A remastering.  I don't see ANY reason for the Starsector-that-is to go away!
But the hardware and software limitations are more than just not aging well.

...by the time we get around to 1.0 release, it's going to be PLAGUED with optimization problems!  Which, by itself, will take a LOT of the groundswell of bringing out of private development!  Maybe even ALL of it.  Because an Indie game with mixed reviews is... painful.

Case and point:  Endless Sky
It's got all the retro
It's got the mods
It's got the Steam
It's got the updates
It's got the 90% positive ratings

...it's got 5,000 reviews, give or take.
That's... not enough.  It trips over its own limitations.
It's got mods, but they aren't in the Workshop.
It's got updates, but you have to retrieve them privately.
It's got the positive rating, but it LOOKS like it's abandonware.
It's not, but it LOOKS like that.

So, cautionary tale, I guess?
Because even if the current version of the game was 30% improved in terms of performance, memory usage, etc...

.... that would still fall short of anything made in the last 10 years.  And it's not getting any younger.

I say all of this because I WANT Starsector to succeed!  I want the Dev to be able to focus on his expansions, and get the recognition and sales this game richly deserves.
But just... going 1.0 isn't going to make that happen.

Does it NEED to do this?  No.  Of course not.
But where do we go from v0.96.3c ...? 
Or v0.99.27hf2...?  Or v1.13.2?  Or, or, or...?

This game has reached Kenshi status.
It's gone as far as the hardware is going to take it.
You can expand the story, but everything you add just bites deeper into those hardware caps.

Maybe I'm wrong  ^_^  Who am I?  I mean... besides Jean Valjean.
But I've walked the Indie booths of PAX for the last decade.
Seen good games live or die based on dumb things like this.
Watched games pimp, and beg, and hire showgirls, even park a Bugatti in front of their booth, and STILL fall flat on their face because the changes necessary were fundamental.
They'd already lost before they arrived.  Before the marketing meeting where somebody thought that a car would sell a space game.  Before even finding a publisher.

We don't have to worry about 'a game that runs on older hardware', 'cause we've already got that!  **laughs**  It's not getting MORE compatible with OLDER hardware.

It's just getting less compatible with newer hardware.
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dgchessman2

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Re: Suggestion: Fractal Software 2.0
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2021, 03:02:22 PM »

Oh, um  >_>  Just to clarify!

I don't know anything about using the phrase 'electric boogaloo' in any political sense.  That seems... odd.
I mean it purely in the "Breakin' 2: Electric Boogaloo" sense.  Which is to say... the inevitable, poorly received sequel trope
"The subtitle "Electric Boogaloo", originally a reference to a funk-oriented dance style of the same name, has entered the popular culture lexicon as a snowclone nickname to denote an archetypal sequel."

And while Java isn't exactly going out of service/style... the game isn't using even the entirety of what Java can do!  Not even fully utilizing Java alone is sorta setting the stage for how a 1.0 release is going to get received on any major platform.

And lastly:  Epic Game Store has shaken up the industry getting their Epic Game Store Exclusive titles, with generous terms for the Developer, AND money forwarded ahead of time to help fuel their work.  It doesn't STAY exclusive, and after a year is open to be hosted on other sites like Steam.

That ONLY exists because of how freakishly profitable Fortnite turned out to be.  They're seeding out that money to draw games in!  They're INCENTIVISING the exact thing that Starsector needs incentivized!  That piece of the development that's just... a bit too expensive to pay for out-of-pocket.  That hurdle that's just a bit too tall, but if you had a bit of a nest egg...

I don't assume that offer will stay open forever.

Steam Greenlight?  Bah.  I mean, you could... it just doesn't come with any of the perks.
Wear the 'Epic Game Store Exclusive' teeshirt for a year, use it as the 'early access' phase where the game gets out into the mainstream market.  BUT!  If you don't have any ROOM to improve based on feedback... then the whole exercise is futile.

And I'm not even talking about stuff on the FAQ page  **LAUGHS**  I'm just talkin'... Starsector.  As close to what it is right now as possible.

.... except the UI.  Holy hell the UI needs a lotlotlot of work to be ready to be released into the wild.

Don't believe me?
Seed out some copies to Streamers.
NOT strategy eggheads like us... just normal streamers and influencers.
Get their HONEST feedback.

I bet you money you're going to get back a list of things that either won't happen (multiplayer, etc) or can't happen because of engine/code limitations.
A long list.

... so....  **shrugs**  ... be proactive?

See, I've ALSO walked the booths and shook hands with the single Dev at DeadToast.  Told him how excellent it was.  And he told me a little story about how he got this corner of the Expo hall.  Somebody saw what he had, and pitched in the money to make that Main Hall demo happen.  He didn't have any of the means, but he HAD a good product.

Set up the screens.  Worked the lines himself.  Let people play.

Less than a month later, My Friend Pedro hits Steam like a tsunami.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2021, 03:07:48 PM by dgchessman2 »
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Thaago

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Re: Suggestion: Fractal Software 2.0
« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2021, 03:11:37 PM »

Thats just not true. Starsector's modding is exceptionally clean compared to most other games. In terms of config edits, there is a single thing that needs to be changed with a basic text editor on heavily modded games (its not even needed for the first 10 or so) and that is literally it. There's not a forum full of hacks, just easy to download mods/libraries, a Q&A section, and a thriving mod community (seriously have you seen the mod listing page or the discord chat channel on modding? and thats just the english language mods!). Meanwhile the vast majority (all but like 3) of those mods all work perfectly together with no mod load order needed, no memory conflicts, and no need to mess around.

The game is so easy to use mods with that, even though there have been 2 or 3 good community mod managers including Nexus, most people don't even bother to use them because its not needed.
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