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Author Topic: A Nemesis System  (Read 802 times)

intrinsic_parity

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A Nemesis System
« on: December 21, 2021, 02:29:29 PM »

I think there should be a system opposite of contacts where you meet people and *** them off in some way resulting in them being 'out to get you' i.e. your nemesis.

I think you could wrap a lot of the existing random negative events (raids, expeditions, pirate activity, fleet inspections etc.) into this system pretty nicely too so that those events feel less like game mechanics and more like emergent events based on your interactions with the world.

A few examples:
- You kill a pirate bounty, and afterwards discover the captain sent a message before he died to his brother who now hates you and becomes a Nemesis. The brother holes up in a local pirate station and drives pirate activity and raids at your colonies until you deal with him.
- You increase food productional from your colonies beyond a threshold and the hegemony minister of agriculture takes notice of you cutting into his business, becoming your Nemesis, and sending expeditions and maybe even mercs to gank you until you deal with him.
- You get caught smuggling into a league port a few too may times, and the local station commander becomes your nemesis. Now patrols in the system are much more likely to stop/harass/inspect you, and maybe even attack you (in spite of your faction rep), and you also have higher tariffs until you deal with them.

What does 'deal with them' mean though? Well it can be different depending on the importance of the Nemesis and the context as well. Maybe that pirate can be dealt with by destroying the station (same as now, but integrated into the world more). The Station commander maybe can be killed (resulting in a loss of faction rep), or bribed, or maybe there is even a special quest to get back in his good graces. That hegemony minister of agriculture might require some special and very difficult missions/boss battle to deal with. Maybe you could also call in favors from your contacts to deal with a Nemesis, so if you do a bunch of work for the high Hegemon, you can ask him to get that minister of agriculture off your case (at the cost of your reputation with him of course), or maybe you could call on your TT friends to assassinate a certain annoying LC official whose been bothering you, if those factions are at war. Lots of cool possibilities to make contacts more useful as well, and ways to make contact (and Nemesis) 'importance level' have some more meaning beyond just mission quality.

The idea is to not only give in-world context/explanations for a lot of the negative things happening to you, but also to give you some more agency in dealing with those things. Also, it feels like it could be cool to tie Nemesis' and contacts in with the story/quest system, where your dialogue choices can result in the creation of contacts or Nemesis. Choose your words carefully.
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Megas

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Re: A Nemesis System
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2021, 02:49:56 PM »

What does 'deal with them' mean though?
Nuke 'em!  Sat bomb their world off the map!  I would be inclined to do that if their demands are too onerous (not unlike too frequent expeditions), especially for doing routine things in a murderhobo game.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: A Nemesis System
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2021, 03:09:23 PM »

What does 'deal with them' mean though?
Nuke 'em!  Sat bomb their world off the map!  I would be inclined to do that if their demands are too onerous (not unlike too frequent expeditions), especially for doing routine things in a murderhobo game.
Funnily enough, two possible features of the suggestion are 1: giving alternative approaches to just sat bombing away all your problems, and 2: creating possible consequences for sat bombing away all your problems (I imagine bombing a populated world would create some major enemies).
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JUDGE! slowpersun

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Re: A Nemesis System
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2021, 04:00:08 PM »

Interesting, might be cool to have game generate a Gary to the player's Ash.  But dunno how to track some artificial player's progress without basically mirroring player's actions, which could end up being boring (unlike Gary/Ash example, since original Pokemon had a pretty specific single track to follow until basically end game).  Plus, how to make nemesis battle ai not be any more stupid than normal battle ai?  Not saying player's nemesis needs to pass Turing test, but would generally have to present an additional challenge beyond normal gameplay challenges...
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Megas

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Re: A Nemesis System
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2021, 04:19:00 PM »

Sat bombing already creates major enemies, only too little, too late before player is strong enough to do as he pleases, like kill everyone.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: A Nemesis System
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2021, 04:32:40 PM »

Interesting, might be cool to have game generate a Gary to the player's Ash.  But dunno how to track some artificial player's progress without basically mirroring player's actions, which could end up being boring (unlike Gary/Ash example, since original Pokemon had a pretty specific single track to follow until basically end game).  Plus, how to make nemesis battle ai not be any more stupid than normal battle ai?  Not saying player's nemesis needs to pass Turing test, but would generally have to present an additional challenge beyond normal gameplay challenges...
I wasn't so much thinking of an artificial player (i.e. having a fleet and doing stuff), but more just an NPC that exists in the world (and you can interact with), that is responsible for bad things that are happening to you, as opposed to the current random events vaguely attributed to faceless factions. Kind of tying together some existing mechanics, and maybe creating some more interesting options for dealing with existing mechanics, and maybe adding some new challenges to overcome. They could maybe appear in a fleet as a special officer under some circumstances (and of course there would be opportunities for unique scripted story stuff), but I don't think it's necessary to have them be concrete entities that are being tracked and progressing in the world like the player.

For some things, it might not even change the current gameplay, but just add some more personal motivation and story around the existing mechanics (i.e. you still just blow up a pirate base to stop pirate activity, but now there is a back story connecting your actions to why that base was attacking your colonies).

For a more high profile nemesis like an important hegemony official, you could add more scripted events and tie it in to other story related stuff etc. Then there might only be a small number of these types of nemesis, so not really 'procedurally generated' as much, but you could for instance make a nasty boss fight associated with that scripted nemesis.

Sat bombing already creates major enemies, only too little, too late before player is strong enough to do as he pleases, like kill everyone.
So you could add some nasty retaliation fleets, and merc fleets that a hegemony admiral starts sending after you and your colonies if you sat bomb a heg world. You could tailor those to be an actual threat to an end-game player etc.

To me that would feel a lot more interesting than the current game.
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IonDragonX

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Re: A Nemesis System
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2021, 04:33:42 PM »

I think there should be a system opposite of contacts where you meet people and *** them off in some way resulting in them being 'out to get you' i.e. your nemesis.
My fleeting first impression is cool! Could I get cornered at high suspicion, pin the rap on my 8th best officer & lock him in his quarters while I cheese it? I'd get out of the space station and probably out of the system but potentially have my ex-subordinate "Lt. Commander Nerf Herder" plotting his revenge? Ha!
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: A Nemesis System
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2021, 04:36:09 PM »

I think there should be a system opposite of contacts where you meet people and *** them off in some way resulting in them being 'out to get you' i.e. your nemesis.
My fleeting first impression is cool! Could I get cornered at high suspicion, pin the rap on my 8th best officer & lock him in his quarters while I cheese it? I'd get out of the space station and probably out of the system but potentially have my ex-subordinate "Lt. Commander Nerf Herder" plotting his revenge? Ha!
Maybe the second time you try to pull that on him, he challenges you to a duel :P.
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IonDragonX

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Re: A Nemesis System
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2021, 04:37:28 PM »

I think there should be a system opposite of contacts where you meet people and *** them off in some way resulting in them being 'out to get you' i.e. your nemesis.
My fleeting first impression is cool! Could I get cornered at high suspicion, pin the rap on my 8th best officer & lock him in his quarters while I cheese it? I'd get out of the space station and probably out of the system but potentially have my ex-subordinate "Lt. Commander Nerf Herder" plotting his revenge? Ha!
Maybe the second time you try to pull that on him, he challenges you to a duel :P.
Uuuh... It would count as 'dismissing' the officer as you leave without him, only he was the last to know. He therefore becomes your nemesis.
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JUDGE! slowpersun

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Re: A Nemesis System
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2021, 04:39:26 PM »

Maybe the second time you try to pull that on him, he challenges you to a duel :P.

If this is the case, game DEFINITELY needs an inventory system for laser pistols and swords, maybe some personal armor vs Dune personal shield.  But that would be a massive expansion that would prolly be quite controversial.  Plus, last time I suggested it, Alex's response was pretty tepid (although he clearly was busy at time).
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Embolism

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Re: A Nemesis System
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2021, 08:06:53 AM »

Maybe the second time you try to pull that on him, he challenges you to a duel :P.

If this is the case, game DEFINITELY needs an inventory system for laser pistols and swords, maybe some personal armor vs Dune personal shield.  But that would be a massive expansion that would prolly be quite controversial.  Plus, last time I suggested it, Alex's response was pretty tepid (although he clearly was busy at time).

Given that the player can move credits at a planetary level, the only type of personal equipment that might make sense to represent in StarSector would be one-of-a-kind AI-epiphany artefacts. If you can afford a starship you can afford to outfit not just you but your entire crew with top-of-the-line combat gear without a sweat, so trying to introduce personal items to the economy is pointless.
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JUDGE! slowpersun

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Re: A Nemesis System
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2021, 10:12:22 AM »

Maybe the second time you try to pull that on him, he challenges you to a duel :P.
If this is the case, game DEFINITELY needs an inventory system for laser pistols and swords, maybe some personal armor vs Dune personal shield.  But that would be a massive expansion that would prolly be quite controversial.  Plus, last time I suggested it, Alex's response was pretty tepid (although he clearly was busy at time).
Given that the player can move credits at a planetary level, the only type of personal equipment that might make sense to represent in StarSector would be one-of-a-kind AI-epiphany artefacts. If you can afford a starship you can afford to outfit not just you but your entire crew with top-of-the-line combat gear without a sweat, so trying to introduce personal items to the economy is pointless.

That's literally the point, more lewt for player to find and keep/use or sell.  But not all "artefacts" need have a dueling use, sometimes also just allows a player to get basically a free SP use for certain situations if them have X "artefact" equipped... so player also has options for SP conservation.  But like I said, IIRC, response was tepid.
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