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Author Topic: Economy needs some serious rebalancing  (Read 5694 times)

Megas

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Re: Economy needs some serious rebalancing
« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2021, 07:23:04 PM »

But losing a capital in a 300k bounty fight means that something went horribly, horribly wrong far beyond what can normally be expected. Small ships get lost protecting the big ships if things go bad, but actually losing a capital is rare unless the player just gets stomped. Even then, recovering a capital with a few D mods doesn't mean that it has 0 value: its more like 80% value left, so the actual lost capital isn't 300k.
No, a fleet that can wipe out an endgame bounty fleet like that is overpowered, and the fight was not much of a challenge, not if a capital causality was in doubt.  Player who finally reaches the pinnacle at endgame can construct a fleet that can wipe out any named bounty flawlessly and reliably.  At that point, it is expected for those fights to be flawless, or a minor casualty at worst.

But player who has not progressed quite that far (does not have as many ships, has not reached max level, and ditto for his officers) but needs to fight a somewhat superior fleet because bounties progressed faster than he did (or go home and do more trade runs to catch up), winning without any casualties is not a given, even for capitals.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Economy needs some serious rebalancing
« Reply #46 on: December 21, 2021, 08:02:22 PM »

But losing a capital in a 300k bounty fight means that something went horribly, horribly wrong far beyond what can normally be expected. Small ships get lost protecting the big ships if things go bad, but actually losing a capital is rare unless the player just gets stomped. Even then, recovering a capital with a few D mods doesn't mean that it has 0 value: its more like 80% value left, so the actual lost capital isn't 300k.
No, a fleet that can wipe out an endgame bounty fleet like that is overpowered, and the fight was not much of a challenge, not if a capital causality was in doubt.  Player who finally reaches the pinnacle at endgame can construct a fleet that can wipe out any named bounty flawlessly and reliably.  At that point, it is expected for those fights to be flawless, or a minor casualty at worst.

But player who has not progressed quite that far (does not have as many ships, has not reached max level, and ditto for his officers) but needs to fight a somewhat superior fleet because bounties progressed faster than he did (or go home and do more trade runs to catch up), winning without any casualties is not a given, even for capitals.
The entire scenario you described is purely a consequence of the bounty scaling mechanics, and can be solved by fixing or eliminating those. That is much preferable to having enormous payouts that totally unbalance endgame just to make it so a weak fleet can maybe feel good about fighting the bounties and losing a bunch of stuff.
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Oni

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Re: Economy needs some serious rebalancing
« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2021, 10:05:44 PM »

You know, if you want people to limit how much they use the Black Market you could simply apply the same system mods/blueprints use on it to credits.

As in pirates will learn and start to use blueprints sold on the Black Market, by the same token if you spend/make lots of credits on the Black Market the Pirates will the much better equipped because they're getting rich off you helping them smuggle. Have the game keep track of a percentage of all credits exchanged on the Black Market by the player and allow pirates to use that to buy more/better ships. Plenty of mods give pirates better selections too, so excessive Black Market trading will give them lots of strong fleets.

As for the Tariffs, I've always thought those should be dynamic to whatever your reputation with the faction is. Are they Suspicious of you? Expect 30-40% as you have to spent extra money on bribes just to get them to talk to you. Friendly or Cooperative? Maybe 10-15% as the officials go out of their way to help you.

I do know that if Alex does to the "Black Market's hidden if you've got your transponder on" thing, I hope he creates bar encounters letting you gain temporary access for a limited time with it still on. Like bribing or overhearing a pirate in a bar for the BM's location, but it'll only be there a week before it moves to avoid security sweeps (ie after the bar encounter, player has a week of in game time where they can access the market with a transponder on).

As for trading itself, I'll say I enjoy trading. Maybe I'm in the minority but I do like deciding my space trucker routes and trying to decide which cargo is worth hauling. Plus I spend a lot on Agents in Nexerelin to smooth over various faction relations to prevent the sector from exploding.


Edit: While we're on the subject of pirates, two things I never understood about them. Why do they have normal markets in their ports? Shouldn't there only be a Black Market? Also how can you commission with them, I always thought they were a collective moniker for a (at best) loosely associated band of violent individuals. Seems like it should be a constantly hostile faction (if one that probably won't attack you if you've got your transponder off. Probably).
« Last Edit: December 21, 2021, 10:38:26 PM by Oni »
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SethMK

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Re: Economy needs some serious rebalancing
« Reply #48 on: December 22, 2021, 12:29:51 AM »

I thought pirates DO start to blueprints you sell on black market after a period of time and colony items... So it can be risky to sell those on black market unless your trying to buff pirate fleets.
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Oni

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Re: Economy needs some serious rebalancing
« Reply #49 on: December 22, 2021, 07:03:10 AM »

I thought pirates DO start to blueprints you sell on black market after a period of time and colony items... So it can be risky to sell those on black market unless your trying to buff pirate fleets.
They do, I'm just proposing that they should also benefit from the credits spent on the black market.
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isara

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Re: Economy needs some serious rebalancing
« Reply #50 on: December 23, 2021, 11:47:59 AM »

not sure what the dev's official take/plan on economic rebalancing is,
IMO if a game with this much depth can promise a good first 100 hour experience(it's gonna be another 100 hours, and another, if the first one is enjoyable), it has no doubt in my mind it's gonna blow up,
however, if players can spot major exploits/obviously unbalanced mechanics very early into the game, it's gonna hurt a lot
« Last Edit: December 23, 2021, 11:49:51 AM by isara »
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JUDGE! slowpersun

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Re: Economy needs some serious rebalancing
« Reply #51 on: December 23, 2021, 11:55:06 AM »

not sure what the dev's official take/plan on economic balancing is,
IMO if a game with this much depth can promise a good first 100 hour experience, it has no doubt in my mind it's gonna blow up,
however, if players can spot major exploits/obviously unbalanced mechanics very early into the game, it's gonna hurt a lot

Ah, finally, consensus.  I think that the more optimal solution would unfortunately be to just make tutorial longer, even though new players would hate that even more.  Problem is that there prolly is no optimal solution; otherwise dev is basically just making player otherwise sit through a bunch of warnings and suggestions to use easy mode first that will get ignored anyways...
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AcaMetis

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Re: Economy needs some serious rebalancing
« Reply #52 on: December 23, 2021, 01:19:33 PM »

One issue I foresee with making trading more obnoxious: How will this impact selling stuff I get through exploring? I'm already at the point where I reflexively ditch the tens of thousands of Ore I find on occasion without looking back. I don't want to get to the point where I leave crates worth of Heavy Armaments just floating in space because I either can't dump them off without getting jumped by half the Sector's pirates (which would make the part where every AI trader seems to openly broadcast their port of origin, time of departure and destination without finding waves of pirates waiting for them in hyperspace highly questionable), or it's too much of a time investment to do so because I have to sneak into a dozen ports with my transponder off just to dump stuff off piecemeal, because no market will buy more than a few units at once.

If trade (well, smuggling, really, actual trade is never useful with it's tariffs) gets overnerfed it's just going to end up in the same position that every mission that ends up sending 200K bounty fleets your way are currently: Not worth the effort, and avoided at all costs as a result. Buff the missions, the contacts, the bounties, the exploration, make all of that stuff actually worthwhile without deadly caveats and then see where smuggling stands in comparison. If it still needs adjustments, so be it, but I'm not sure about comparing/nerfing it when it's competition is dragging along balls and chains.
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isara

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Re: Economy needs some serious rebalancing
« Reply #53 on: December 24, 2021, 11:24:48 AM »

not sure what the dev's official take/plan on economic balancing is,
IMO if a game with this much depth can promise a good first 100 hour experience, it has no doubt in my mind it's gonna blow up,
however, if players can spot major exploits/obviously unbalanced mechanics very early into the game, it's gonna hurt a lot

Ah, finally, consensus.  I think that the more optimal solution would unfortunately be to just make tutorial longer, even though new players would hate that even more.  Problem is that there prolly is no optimal solution; otherwise dev is basically just making player otherwise sit through a bunch of warnings and suggestions to use easy mode first that will get ignored anyways...

I mean, having better tutorial  is always welcomed, but I don't think the game is that difficult to play or understand, just fix the exploits, or simply hide them/delay the accessibility to them until late-game will do.
Under no circumstance should a game ruin players' sense of progression, it's vital
« Last Edit: December 24, 2021, 11:27:07 AM by isara »
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JUDGE! slowpersun

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Re: Economy needs some serious rebalancing
« Reply #54 on: December 25, 2021, 12:53:20 AM »

I mean, having better tutorial  is always welcomed, but I don't think the game is that difficult to play or understand, just fix the exploits, or simply hide them/delay the accessibility to them until late-game will do.

Well, there goes the consensus.  They aren't exploits, they are edge cases for underlying econ system (mostly Chalcedeon).  But I don't see any reason why most peeps would play the tediously boring trade runs until their eyes bleed (unless it's a meme thing or just masochism).  And this is from someone who gets a kick out the econ system (although it was more the trade contracts I referenced that got dropped/hidden I found enjoyable, rushing to hit shortages less interesting).  But hide them/delay accessibility?  This isn't a single track game.  Less Legend of Zelda, more Kenshi...

Under no circumstance should a game ruin players' sense of progression, it's vital

Ridiculous, any arbitrary player's sense of progression is relative.  What you see as progress I see as boring... and vice versa.
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Serenitis

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Re: Economy needs some serious rebalancing
« Reply #55 on: December 25, 2021, 03:28:57 AM »

Trading is fine as is. (If somewhat dull.)
It's black markets that upset everything.

Taking away the universal access to black markets is the first thing that comes to mind.
Pirate controlled markets would be the only places the player would always have access to the black market.
Otherwise, they'd only have access if they were hostile to that specific faction. Or had some other (potentially story or contact based) means to do so.

This would require the failsafe of always having <x> of something to be moved to the open market though.
Which may or may not be desireable...
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JUDGE! slowpersun

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Re: Economy needs some serious rebalancing
« Reply #56 on: December 25, 2021, 03:38:13 AM »

Taking away the universal access to black markets is the first thing that comes to mind.
Pirate controlled markets would be the only places the player would always have access to the black market.
Otherwise, they'd only have access if they were hostile to that specific faction. Or had some other (potentially story or contact based) means to do so.

This would require the failsafe of always having <x> of something to be moved to the open market though.
Which may or may not be desireable...

Maybe optimal solution is just crank heat from black market even higher, but allow same market/colony contacts to reduce some of "super heat" (although new players will at some point learn that heat can be balanced by also trading on open market).  Or perhaps gating black market behind having a pirate contact, but that seems unnecessarily restrictive...
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Megas

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Re: Economy needs some serious rebalancing
« Reply #57 on: December 25, 2021, 06:08:56 AM »

The entire scenario you described is purely a consequence of the bounty scaling mechanics, and can be solved by fixing or eliminating those. That is much preferable to having enormous payouts that totally unbalance endgame just to make it so a weak fleet can maybe feel good about fighting the bounties and losing a bunch of stuff.
Contact bounties pay about double of roughly equivalent named bounties, and they are more reasonable.  Are contact bounties unbalanced?

It is not just player progression, but also world aesthetics too.  (Not unlike empty mounts being the norm for optimized loadouts bothering people like me.)  With named rewards that low, no two named bounties (one of them being a generic bounty hunter fleet after the other) should try to fight each other.  The victor would be hopelessly ruined.

* * *

Taking away the universal access to black markets is the first thing that comes to mind.
Pirate controlled markets would be the only places the player would always have access to the black market.
Otherwise, they'd only have access if they were hostile to that specific faction. Or had some other (potentially story or contact based) means to do so.
No problem.  Most of my black market trades are already at pirate stations in part because I raid them at nearly every opportunity after I trade.  Not to mention the zombie bases out in the fringe that make convenient pit stops.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2021, 06:17:14 AM by Megas »
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JUDGE! slowpersun

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Re: Economy needs some serious rebalancing
« Reply #58 on: December 25, 2021, 09:56:28 AM »

(Not unlike empty mounts being the norm for optimized loadouts bothering people like me.)

Not just you, I dropped a mini-rant about that on another thread less than 12 hours ago about same issue.  That is a huge noob trap since newer players usually don't have a good grasp of flux level maintenance (ie, stamina conservation).
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Goumindong

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Re: Economy needs some serious rebalancing
« Reply #59 on: December 25, 2021, 12:10:22 PM »

I would have made pirates target successful traders, but I'm not Alex.
Same. I'm still hoping to add that to ruthless sector some day, or make a new mod for it. I'm also a big fan of how Jaghaimo made black markets only accessible when transponders are turned off in Starpocalypse.

FWIW, I've got some notes in this general direction, especially vis a vis smuggling and the risks (or lack of risks) inherent in it.

One thing that could work is to have a more stringent black market activity limit.

That is, if you buy/sell things on the black market you have a hard limit in proportion to your transactions when your transponder is on. Say… 10% of total. So if you buy/sell 900k credits of goods in the regular market you can buy/sell 100k credits of goods on the black market.

This gives two methods of smuggling.

1) come in without your transponder off (no one ever knew you were there!)

2) come in with enough regular goods to make it look like you’re an honest trader.

This way it would be more reasonable to smuggle to some of the larger planets(especially missions if this transponder limitation were carried over). If you fail the suspicion trigger you get a rep loss and the goods are confiscated and you pay a fine. With no way to avoid this since your fleet gets locked in the hangar until you comply. (Edit: rather than having a “suspicion meter” that updates after you perform a trade have a “probability of being discovered” popup when you make a trade on the black market (option to cancel)

Other solutions involve

1) specific customs fleets such that other fleets do not scan cargo/hunt down ships that have transponders off unless an act of piracy has occurred (and will ignore you if you can be positively identified as not the pirate)

2) customs interactions upon entering a system/planet that allow you to declare your goods (illegal or otherwise) and have those goods be dealt with or sealed/tracked.

That is, suppose you land on a planet and you have food and illegal drugs. You go through customs and say “I took the illegal drugs from a pirate and am turning them in”  (lose drugs gain rep) or “yea I have these illegal drugs but am not importing them” (keep drugs but unable to access black market due to guards stationed at your ship to make sure you leave with them and will check manifests of everything you do)

This could do well with a third class of good (regulated[or military] rather than illegal. Which would be rep limited and double tariff traded or some such, which would also make it harder for places to shortage themselves by being too effective policing their own illegal goods)

Customs interactions on planets could also allow you to bribe your way onto a planet and so develop a more… more proper interaction between pirate and the independents.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2021, 12:22:53 PM by Goumindong »
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