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Author Topic: Paladin PD on a Sunder?  (Read 3092 times)

SethMK

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Paladin PD on a Sunder?
« on: December 19, 2021, 02:07:45 PM »

With the current version of the Paladin PD, could a Sunder make use of it and be effective in a fleet under AI control?
Since this weapon can target past allied ships without friendly fire... a pack of 'Paladin Sunders' in theory could easily gang up on a ship while hiding behind a more durable ally without the AI stalling out about not having a clear lane of fire.

Not sure if this is a good idea as I've not been able to find anything about using a Paladin on a Sunder.
Also, I have no clue what the rest of the loadout for the ship would be other than it might combo well with a converted hangar. I suspect it might combo well with other weapons that would benefit from expanded magazine preferably ones with a range closet that of the Paladin PD.

Basically trying to go for a general-purpose build that would be useful against pirates, missile spam, and even redacted foes.

I am not sure if anyone has tried it out yet as searching the forum as well as with a general internet search engine hasn't turned up any results.
I kind of doubt it would be better than the more common usage of an Autopulse laser or HIL but I'm not sure if anyone has discussed building a Sunder around a Paladin PD as opposed to the more common Autopulser, Tachyon Laser, HIL, or even the Plasma Cannon. But for some reason, I find the idea of sticking the Paladin PD on a Destroyer hull to be an amusing concept.
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Thaago

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Re: Paladin PD on a Sunder?
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2021, 02:55:50 PM »

I haven't tried it because I'd be worried about a hardpoint with PD just not being effective, but maybe stacking a few maneuverability boosters? Being able to shoot over allied ships is interesting.
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SethMK

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Re: Paladin PD on a Sunder?
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2021, 05:32:07 PM »

I agree the use of the single large energy for a PD weapon can't be optimal by any means, but trying to figure out a way to make the most out of the not-so-common ability to shoot past/through ally ships without harming them could be something worth looking into.
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Megas

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Re: Paladin PD on a Sunder?
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2021, 06:12:51 AM »

I tried Paladin on another ship with High Scatter Amplifier (for hard flux), but it does not kill things as fast as Autopulse.

Paladin PD is mainly useful as super flak.

Update:  Tried again with Apogee with only Autopulse then again with Paladin vs. SIM Venture.  Autopulse won with about low 200s PPT left, Paladin with about 90 PPT left.  In addition, Venture left its shield down most of the time and Paladin got so many free hits, while I had to crack shields repeatedly with autopulse.

Before you start thinking that enemy may leave shields down for ships with only Paladin mounted on it, that did not work against SIM Enforcer, who kept shield up against PD.

Only use Paladin as PD.  It does a much better job than smaller energy PD.  For assault, the ship is better off with something else.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2021, 07:47:25 AM by Megas »
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SethMK

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Re: Paladin PD on a Sunder?
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2021, 12:20:45 PM »

So if I want a cheap Padin support PD ship it works on a sunder... But if I want the ship to kill enemy ships effectively  then use something else. Which is kind of what I expected for 1v1 but I was thinking groups but it would probably be the same for the ai in most situations. With only the ability to shoot over allies being an average exception case but sunders can maneuver so that is not a likely situation.

Still something to keep in mind if I know I will be going up against something with an insane number of fighters and missiles. Like some redacted or station fights as a support ship while other ships kill the targets.
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Daynen

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Re: Paladin PD on a Sunder?
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2021, 11:44:10 AM »

Did not know the paladin PD could shoot past friendlies.  That is most interesting...
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SethMK

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Re: Paladin PD on a Sunder?
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2021, 12:01:20 PM »

It is the shoot past side feature that had me wondering about a pack of sunders with paladins plowing through an area, but autopulse is probably better... Unless you want cram a tachyon lance or a plasma into an SO build. Personally I am not all that fond of SO even though it has its place. It just isn't my style.
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PreConceptor

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Re: Paladin PD on a Sunder?
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2021, 06:44:04 PM »

The fact that this thread exists is proof that there is no good platform for the Paladin in vanilla. There seems to be a real need for a supcapital defensive vessel (destroyer maybe) with a large energy turret that can make the Paladin work without just being a shoo-in for the other large energies.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2021, 06:55:24 PM by PreConceptor »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Paladin PD on a Sunder?
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2021, 07:32:55 PM »

I like paladin in the middle large slot on the radiant, and think that is one of the better options paired with 2x plasma 2x autopulse. I also think paragon can use paladin pretty effectively in the large turrets, paired with plasma cannons in the hard points. I think it might be decent in odysseys weak broadside slot, but I generally prefer a missile there. I am much more inclined to use it against dooms, and against the Doritos.
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PreConceptor

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Re: Paladin PD on a Sunder?
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2021, 07:37:15 PM »

I like paladin in the middle large slot on the radiant, and think that is one of the better options paired with 2x plasma 2x autopulse. I also think paragon can use paladin pretty effectively in the large turrets, paired with plasma cannons in the hard points. I think it might be decent in odysseys weak broadside slot, but I generally prefer a missile there. I am much more inclined to use it against dooms, and against the Doritos.
It does work decently on the Radiant and Paragon, but you have to spend 60 DP on either of them and they are generally more effective with something else. On an Odyssey it's a waste to not have a large guided missile in that slot. I suppose the Devastator is in a similar spot in that it only really goes on the Conq, 'Slaught and Legion, even if they are significantly cheaper. Hopefully we get a Manticore But Hightech in an update down the road.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2021, 07:42:23 PM by PreConceptor »
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SethMK

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Re: Paladin PD on a Sunder?
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2021, 09:05:11 PM »

The fact that this thread exists is proof that there is no good platform for the Paladin in vanilla. There seems to be a real need for a supcapital defensive vessel (destroyer maybe) with a large energy turret that can make the Paladin work without just being a shoo-in for the other large energies.

I was kind of hoping the Sunder could fill that niche but I'm not sure if it can be setup for it if it I'm not exactly sure what it would be lacking in that role.
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PreConceptor

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Re: Paladin PD on a Sunder?
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2021, 09:36:40 PM »

The fact that this thread exists is proof that there is no good platform for the Paladin in vanilla. There seems to be a real need for a supcapital defensive vessel (destroyer maybe) with a large energy turret that can make the Paladin work without just being a shoo-in for the other large energies.

I was kind of hoping the Sunder could fill that niche but I'm not sure if it can be setup for it if it I'm not exactly sure what it would be lacking in that role.

Well, it would be lacking a turret for the Paladin to rotate and do PD things. Might as well use the Autopulse.
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SethMK

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Re: Paladin PD on a Sunder?
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2021, 09:50:02 PM »

The fact that this thread exists is proof that there is no good platform for the Paladin in vanilla. There seems to be a real need for a supcapital defensive vessel (destroyer maybe) with a large energy turret that can make the Paladin work without just being a shoo-in for the other large energies.

I was kind of hoping the Sunder could fill that niche but I'm not sure if it can be setup for it if it I'm not exactly sure what it would be lacking in that role.

Well, it would be lacking a turret for the Paladin to rotate and do PD things. Might as well use the Autopulse.

And I doubt we can get that hard point turned into a turret....well not without modding but that wouldn't be a good solution.
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Thaago

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Re: Paladin PD on a Sunder?
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2021, 09:58:59 PM »

If you really want to destroy all fighters and missiles, Paladin works on Champions. It might sound a bit heretical, but you can still get 'ok' firepower from the large missile and medium slots, and the ship doesn't need to spend much on vents. I did that vs the Tesseracts last version for one fight specifically to mop up those evil fighters and it did the job. Its also effective vs phase ships because of firing over allies and being burst. I've also toyed with the idea of SO + 2 heavy blasters + paladin but never really committed to it.
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PreConceptor

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Re: Paladin PD on a Sunder?
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2021, 10:05:37 PM »

The fact that this thread exists is proof that there is no good platform for the Paladin in vanilla. There seems to be a real need for a supcapital defensive vessel (destroyer maybe) with a large energy turret that can make the Paladin work without just being a shoo-in for the other large energies.

I was kind of hoping the Sunder could fill that niche but I'm not sure if it can be setup for it if it I'm not exactly sure what it would be lacking in that role.

Well, it would be lacking a turret for the Paladin to rotate and do PD things. Might as well use the Autopulse.

And I doubt we can get that hard point turned into a turret....well not without modding but that wouldn't be a good solution.

High Tech Expansion has something: the Iris-class. It's basically just a large energy turret with a slow Fortress Shield destroyer built around it, but it has a hullmod that specifically buffs PD range while hard-caping all range past 1200. It makes a really good platform for the Paladin as it also has built-in Hardened Subsystems so it can loiter in escort around large ships and shoot over them, while being tough enough to survive high intensity combat, while also being ok for other large energies. It feels good to spend 12 points on a PD-only Iris
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