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[SafariJohn]

I doubt Maneuvering Jets is weak, but it is subtle because most ships that have it already have good base speed and maneuverability.

IMO the biggest thing holding back Falcon and Eagle is the anti-synergy of their ballistic and energy medium mounts, as has been mentioned. The layout almost forces you into using support beams, which is lame.

Falcon P already has its turrets as composites, maybe only flip the outer mediums? So the Eagle's center mediums would stay ballistic in front, energy in back, but the rest would flip.

 EBE
B E B

[prav]

Manjets are pretty great, and with sys expertise you end up with a really good uptime ratio.

Having hardpoint accuracy and nose-mounted range on the ballistics is one of my favorite features of the Eagle.

[Thaago]

Agreed re the turret layout and system, which I think is pretty good just not firepower based. I find I can brawl with falcons because they have the speed to close and use 600 range guns on them good enough, but its harder with the eagle.

[FooF]

While I think we’re getting into power creep territory, the Eagle being a jack-of-all-trades is now actively hurting it. Every new cruiser that has been added is specialized and the ol’ Eagle just doesn’t compete.

It’s never going to be that fast or hit that hard but do think better flux stats are the way to go. Midline is known for its punching power and the Eagle is underfluxed relative to its mounts. You can re-arrange the mounts all you want but if you don’t have the flux to support it, I don’t see much of a change. That said, I could appreciate 1-2 of the M. Energies moving to the hard points.

I’d also be down for the XIV variant to have the Legion treatment and be a fundamentally different ship, if you want to add some specialization or variety.

[Strict]

IMO the biggest thing holding back Falcon and Eagle is the anti-synergy of their ballistic and energy medium mounts, as has been mentioned. The layout almost forces you into using support beams, which is lame.

I think so too. Making medium slots in the middle of the ship hybrid should help or maybe just swap them with front ballistics? Those ships are not bad, it's just AI can't use it with such big range difference (unless you go beams, buffing flux stats it just too easy of a solution).

[SCC]

Swapping ballistics and energies around would probably be the safest option, since it only really changes how aggressive you can be with energy weapons. I am not sure if it would be satisfactory, but I will try to check it out later.

[Burvjradzite]

... let me move the Eradicator to 17 supplies, the Falcon to 14, and buff the Falcon's mobility juuuust a touch. More focusing on acceleration/deceleration, and like 5 points of top speed. It costing as much as Eradicator (P) doesn't really make sense, does it, and it feels like it's been on the weak side for a while, anyway.

I wish you could also move Falcon P to at least 18-ish supplies, 20 is too much, it's just as Gryphon, and Gryphon is dedicated missile ship. I thought the problem with Falcon P was that it can field converted hangar almost for free while still having all of missile power.

[Megas]

While I think we’re getting into power creep territory, the Eagle being a jack-of-all-trades is now actively hurting it. Every new cruiser that has been added is specialized and the ol’ Eagle just doesn’t compete.

It’s never going to be that fast or hit that hard but do think better flux stats are the way to go. Midline is known for its punching power and the Eagle is underfluxed relative to its mounts. You can re-arrange the mounts all you want but if you don’t have the flux to support it, I don’t see much of a change. That said, I could appreciate 1-2 of the M. Energies moving to the hard points.

I’d also be down for the XIV variant to have the Legion treatment and be a fundamentally different ship, if you want to add some specialization or variety.

More OP for more hullmods and better weapons.  I need s-mods to get enough OP for more than the basics, and basics are not good enough in the current low-tech and light ballistics powerup.  More dissipation to use those weapons too.

Unique built-in hullmod that increase damage across the board for all weapons, or at least the ballistics.  Save the beams for PD or other niche stuff.

Free built-in Expanded Missile Racks.  Missile power is anemic compared to other cruisers, and they do not have enough firepower from the other mounts.  Or change some of the mounts to composite/synergy.

[YetAnotherCowboy]

Fighting them is always a pain because always kite back and forth, but if you don't deal with them they tend to circle around behind and blow your engines. Having them as allies? I've never had one survive even with decent weapons. I don't know what's wrong now with the AI but mine consistently auto ram themselves into the biggest threat and consistently get mulched. They're piloted by officers, but none of them are reckless! Everytime I bring them out I have to force them into an escort/protect role or they fly off by themselves and -poof- ded.

[Asherogar]

I feel like another reason why Eagle/Falcon falling behind is frigates and destroyers buffs. Before they barely quantify as cannon fodder, now they are an actual threat. Eagle or Falcon are fast, but nowhere near officerted frigates and they have no firepower to deal with a swarm of frigates. And what firepower it is? Hybrid loadout with no missile firepower, backed up by pathetic flux stats. It's even unable to utilise new Ballistic Rangefinder.

I don't think a little buff to mobility would cut it. Overall stats buff and/or do something with current weird mounts loadout would be much better.

[Megas]

It can use Ballistic Rangefinder with Railguns and LAG, but what is the point?  That firepower is not good enough later in the game.  It really needs Heavy Needlers later.  Unfortunately, that is like having a more agile Champion without the powerful heavy weapons (like HIL and Hammer Barrage).

[Delta_of_Isaire]

Midline is my favorite tech. I did a Midline playthrough in 0.95a that worked really well. Haven't progressed in 0.95.1 far enough yet to use Falcon/Eagle in my fleet (been using Eradicators like everyone else) but here's my take on them.

Eagle:
One of my favorite Flagships in midgame was an Eagle (XIV) with Heavy Autocannons and 2x Phase Lance + Advanced Optics. Strong Kinetic pressure followed up by powerful anti-armor. 800 range Phase Lances are awesome, and quite good at sniping Frigates. The flux buildup is terrible though - hence 2x Phase Lance rather than 3x. Definitely a playership-only build.

Then one day I realized Eagle (XIV) has 46 base speed, which is only 1 (!) more than Conquest. And a Conquest brings a lot more firepower to the table.

As a playership, the Conquest is just better than Eagle. In a fleet, by DP you could have 2 Eagles against 1 Conquest which looks more even. In terms of firepower though, that single Conquest has some advantages. More range with Capital-grade ITU and Gauss Cannons instead of HVDs. And much more Killing power with 2 ECCMed Hurricane MIRV and 2x Harpoons. In the support role, Eagle faces stiff competiton from Conquest.

The one advantage of Eagle over Conquest is durability. Two Eagles can tank a lot more damage than one Conquest can. Enter the Champion, a ship with similar DP cost, similar flux stats, a good bit more armor, and much more devastating firepower with a large Energy + HEF and a large Missile. As a ship-of-the-line the Eagle is completely overshadowed by the Champion.

So yeah, the Eagle has been obsolete ever since 0.95 gave us the Champion.

>>> To make the Eagle relevant again, I say give it +10 base speed to reinforce its role as a Fire Support ship that is difficult to flank.


Falcon:
The Falcon attempts to fill two roles.
> One: an "Eagle-Light" that provides fire support with HVD/Mauler/Graviton Beams against enemy Cruisers and Capitals. The advantage of the Falcon over the Eagle is it has enough speed to keep its distance from enemy Cruisers, which can be very useful.
> Two: a hunter of Destroyers and (slow) Frigates. The Falcon can overpower any Destroyer in 1v1, and has just about enough speed with Maneuvering Jets to give chase.

Enter the Eradicator and its (P) variant.

An Eradicator with AAF and 2x HVD + Mauler provides more firepower than a Falcon can muster, and also has enough speed to keep its distance from enemy Cruisers. So it provides very stiff competition for the Falcon in role one.

The Eradicator (P) with cancellable Burn Drive can chase Destroyers and Frigates just as well as a Falcon can, while also having 50 more flux dissipation, much better weapon mounts and 25 more OP to fill those mounts. So it provides very stiff competition for the Falcon in role two.

Indeed, one could say the Eradicator has obsoleted the Falcon.

>>> To make the Falcon relevant again, the changes proposed by Alex seem reasonable.

[Sollaire]

I agree about the default falcon. but the eagle normal or (XIV) versions are my go to non phase ship remnant hunt ships. those ships are my favorite vanilla ships in the whole game. idk if im the only one who thinks this. but the eagle has got to be the best ship in the game without S mods.
There is also the falcon (P), which i think got nerfed ? Which was baller as hell last patch, though i haven't had the chance to use it yet so maybe not anymore.
So idk about buffing their stats. Maybe i am the only one who fares well with them ?

[IonDragonX]

... let me move the Eradicator to 17 supplies, the Falcon to 14, and buff the Falcon's mobility juuuust a touch. More focusing on acceleration/deceleration, and like 5 points of top speed. It costing as much as Eradicator (P) doesn't really make sense, does it, and it feels like it's been on the weak side for a while, anyway.

I'm glad you see the warning signs that we are concerned about.
Concerning the Eagle being compared to the Champion, I hope that you buff the Eagle similarly. Accel/Decel and 10 points of top speed, please? That would equalize top speed between the Eagle, Champion and Apogee. As a second choice, could you give it a fighter bay? Vanilla cruisers don't have a 1 bay ship because I won't count the Venture's built-in mining pods.

[Morrokain]

As a second choice, could you give it a fighter bay? Vanilla cruisers don't have a 1 bay ship because I won't count the Venture's built-in mining pods.

I second this. I've always felt it should have one. That was actually the very first thing I did 11ish years ago when I first started modding lol. I don't think it really made sense before ships like the Champion existed, but now that change would make the Eagle the perfect option for a jack-of-all trades generalist cruiser.