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[Baqar79]

The Apogee is great for high tech exploration, as it has a good amount of cargo, crew and fuel capacity (with it's fuel efficient engines even 200 units of fuel capacity is decent enough to give it a fairly long travel time across the sector). I normally s-mod Augmented Drives, Auxiliary Fuel Tanks and Expanded Cargo Holds to make it even better for exploration purposes.

The Venture class on the other hand is pretty poor in comparison; it uses 50% more fuel and has a small fuel tank for it's fuel consumption (120 units) and isn't as competitive as the Apogee for cargo and crew capacity.  It doesn't help that it is slower, so more time spent traveling means more supplies are wasted as well.  I'm assuming that the Venture class is considered a low-tech exploration ship because of the integrated surveying equipment, so perhaps I'm wrong here, but it needs a huge buff to fuel capacity and perhaps smaller buffs to cargo and crew capacity.

So if I was to keep the fuel consumption the same at 3 units/light year, I would probably:
-At least triple the fuel capacity.  I would probably suggest something like 400 units; this gives it slightly more range than the Apogee, but at a 50% greater fuel cost and at a slower speed.
-Increase the Cargo and Crew capacity to be competitive with the Apogee; I would probably make them around 500 each, maybe slightly higher.

The Apogee would still retain some great advantages over it Ventura in regards to exploration (High resolution sensors and great fuel economy for two), but it would at least be competitive as a decent exploration ship that is cheaper and easier to acquire (finding an Apogee beside the one I started with was particularly hard during my current playthrough).

[Grievous69]

Agreed, it would make for a more interesting player ship while not making the Pirates more annoying to fight.

[Megas]

I might use Venture more if its base burn was faster than 7.  Probably the best buff it could get is change its built-in bay to a regular bay.  Make Venture go back to its roots.

[Farya]

Venture could regain it's burn with Militarized Subsystems. It just makes it crew overinflated this way. Maybe reduce it's base skeleton crew? Ships with civilian subsystems are supposed to be running fewer crew compared to warships due to commercial automatics in many places and probably also lacking some specialists that any warships is supposed to have. That's why you suffer from reduced sensor range and lower burn.
Also what about giving it Rugged Construction just like other low tech ships getting it in next update?

[Baqar79]

You can fairly easily get the Venture up to 10 speed, though you need to use 2 logistics hull mods to do so (Militarized Subsystems & Augmented Drives), while with an Apogee you only need one (Augmented Drives).  Since both are logistics hull mods though you need to s-mod both of those into the Venture if you want to also install both Auxiliary Fuel tanks & Expanded Cargo Holds; where this isn't the case with the Apogee; giving you a spare s-mod slot to do with as you please (unless you get the 3 point s-mod skill). 

It's kind of why even with all the buffs I'm suggesting, I would still prefer the Apogee over the Venture...but if I'm hunting down another Apogee, I could make do at least with a Venture (It could possibly be a little harder now to get an Apogee since it won't be part of the High Tech blueprints package).  I'm not a fan of the low tech options, as they tend to be big gas guzzlers (though probably fitting with their theme), but they aren't also that great for long range salvaging and exploration...so my hope was recommend changing some of the cargo/crew/fuel capacity on the Venture to make it still great for long range exploration like the Apogee (although a little more costly fuel-wise and a bit slower).

[Farya]

Venture is not supposed to be superefficient though. It's an early game exploration cruiser/armor tank that you could easily purchase or even salvage from some pirate. Though buffing it's capacity somewhat and reducing skeleton crew (It requires only 25 few crewmembers unmilitarized compared to Gryphon for example) would be great + Rugged Costruction to make it even more of a sturdy brick. *125 unmilitarized and whole *250 militarized is a hell of alot. Sure, you would probably need that much anyway for surveying operations but for armor tank duty that's alot of waste of human life.

[Baqar79]

Venture is not supposed to be superefficient though. It's an early game exploration cruiser/armor tank that you could easily purchase or even salvage from some pirate. Though buffing it's capacity somewhat and reducing skeleton crew (It requires only 25 few crewmembers unmilitarized compared to Gryphon for example) would be great + Rugged Costruction to make it even more of a sturdy brick. 150 unmilitarized and whole 300 militarized is a hell of alot. Sure, you would probably need that much anyway for surveying operations but for armor tank duty that's alot of waste of human life.

I see now the problem you were bringing up (125 crew normally, 250 with militarized sub-systems), that seems a bit excessive as you were suggesting so I think that should be reduced a bit.  My suggestion was more aiming for making it more exploration capable (I'm not really all that concerned with it's military abilities so much), which is why I was suggesting the increase in cargo/crew/fuel capacity.  I understand that it isn't efficient, but I don't think it's very good for exploration as the survey equipment on board would suggest with the current cargo, crew and fuel capacity.

Even if you pair the Venture with a Dram, giving you around 420 fuel (ignoring hull-mods for now), at 4 fuel units/light year you are effectively burning double the fuel of the Apogee to get nearly the same distance at a slower rate:
420/4 = 105 light years (Venture + Dram)
200/2 = 100 light years (Apogee)

I don't know if there are any other discussion threads on the Venture, so if others want to go off topic and add what they want of the Venture, that's perfectly ok with me.

[IonDragonX]

Though buffing it's capacity somewhat and reducing skeleton crew (It requires only 25 few crewmembers unmilitarized compared to Gryphon for example) would be great + Rugged Costruction to make it even more of a sturdy brick. *125 unmilitarized and whole *250 militarized is a hell of alot.

I'd be down with the following:

• -1000 Hull = 9000 total (to compensate for its role shift, current Venture is as tough as Champion, Doom and Mora)
• -125 Armor = 1125 total (see above, I'll remind you that it will still be tougher than an Eagle!)
• -33% Min Crew = 85 total (will be doubled with Military Systems)
• Min Crew(85) x 2.5 = 235 total (most ships only factor Minx2, current Venture is Minx2.8 )
• +50 Max Cargo = 400 total (like Apogee and Buffalo but less than half a Colossus)
• +80 Max Fuel = 200 total (which closes half the range gap between it and Apogee)
• -1 Supplies / Month = 14 total (lowers it below Falcon and Fury but still higher than all other Civilian cruisers)
• Rugged Construction when available
• Lower the price of the ship to 90000. This would price point it higher than a Falcon and Fury but lower than Gryphon.

[Alex]

This is an interesting suggestion - though I have to admit, what I find most interesting about it is the potential it has to make the Venture be seen more often in combat on the player's side, and the variety that should add. I think it could be a similar thing to the Mule - something you're ok with having in your fleet for its logistics profile, but it's capable and sturdy enough that it's going to get deployed, too.

Currently it does seem like it's too poor logistics-wise to want to lug around - at least, that's how I tend to feel about it when I see it while playtesting.

Reducing the crew requirements to make Militarized Subsystems more of an option seems key; burn 7 is just a no-go early. I'd probably lean towards bumping the cargo capacity a lot (maybe even to 600?) and fuel a bit, as well as possibly reducing max crew somewhat (300? 250?). I'm not sure that I'd want to bump up both fuel and cargo by a lot; don't want to hew too close to the Apogee. Hmm. Going to mull this over a bit more; further thoughts welcome!

[Thaago]

I would be very happy if the Venture became closer to the Mule in role, because I use Mule's in my fleets all the way through the midgame. The biggest requirement I see is to bump the base burn to 8 and remove the need for militarized subsystems entirely - that brings the crew requirement in line and frees up 15 OP.

For cargo, the Mule is 250 to the Tarsus' 350 and Buffalo's 400, but thats ok because of its combat abilities. If the Venture is going to fill the 'take it for the logistics, deploy it because its tough enough' role, it needs to compete with the Colossus. 600 would give Venture:Colossus roughly the same ratio as Mule:Buffalo so I think that works.

Differentiating between the Apogee and Venture in combat: Both are slow, but the Apogee is 20 speed faster. Both are tanks, but of different types. The Apogee has a far better weapons package, though its mount placement is awkward, and a lot more flux and OP. To me this seems like the difference between a warship and a carrier, which sort of makes sense as the Venture has its mining pods. Playing up this difference could be the way to go: unlocking the fighter bay to make it free, and maybe even add a second bay. Otoh, that starts to step on the Mora's toes, as it is a slow brick with fighter bays. So crazy idea: give the Venture another 2 mining pod wings for a total of 3. That goes from 'some meat shields and lasers' to 'actually decent PD and meatshield grid'.

Out of combat, having the Venture have lots of cargo but relatively low fuel is moderately different from the Apogee's medium cargo and high fuel + exploration. It makes the Venture better for in core trading purposes and raiding, and the Apogee better for exploration.

[SCC]

To make it better in combat, unlocking the fighter bay would be a good step.
For logistics side, you can... Well, honestly burn level is the main issue. You just don't go that low for a good reason, and Venture is not a good reason at all to step down to cruiser burn level. It might be ok for exploration, but you don't need it for that purpose either, and it's better not to get it (early on, because you lose on speed, later on, because of Apogee).

[Grievous69]

Well 3 Mining pods is a bit too much, it's plenty annoying to fight as it is, having most of your shots stopped by 12 rocks with lasers would be boring. After all it's a cheap and common cruiser. I'm fine with it either having 2 total Mining pods or a single flight deck of choice. Logistics wise, it seems Alex has the right ideas.

[Alex]

Hmm - I was just going to say, my concern with adding more mining pods would be that it'd be more aggravating to fight. In general I feel like "too many fighters" can dirty up the battlespace so I want to be as judicious about that as possible. I'm also not sure that the combat performance needs boosting, really - it seems like a pretty solid brick and it can do capable missile support, and at 15 DP it's the same as a Falcon. Which, that one's more mobile, but the Venture is tougher, and... might arguably have a better weapons package, really. It's giving up some energy slots but getting two medium missiles in return.

I was thinking about removing civgrade too, yeah - but it kind of feels right for both that and the Shepherd to have it... but it's a fair point about that being 15 OP; that's definitely going to hurt in combat.

[Megas]

I would be very happy if the Venture became closer to the Mule in role, because I use Mule's in my fleets all the way through the midgame. The biggest requirement I see is to bump the base burn to 8 and remove the need for militarized subsystems entirely - that brings the crew requirement in line and frees up 15 OP.

And it used to be like a super Mule, until it became a civilian miner.

All I want is base burn 8, empty fighter bay, and maybe civilian hull removed (so that Bulk Transport does not turn it into campaign hot rod).  Then it can be like what it used to be:  super Mule or low-tech Brillant.

The few times I considered using Venture, I left it behind to rot because base burn 7 was a dealbreaker.  Augmented Drive Field is not available that early, and even then, unless I use Apogee, I probably have a frigate and Shrike fleet at burn 10, which I want when most things can kill my fleet.

[Thaago]

Yeah the 3 Mining Pods is not such a good idea now that I think on it for a little while longer. But so many little lasers!