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[Amoebka]

Yeah, no. Heavy blaster + ITU + 20 vents isn't "basics". ITU is very much a luxury carriers shouldn't be able to afford, that's good. Heron can easily pop frigates with a pulse laser + IR pulse + ion cannon. That's basically a wolf with much better base hull stats + 3 premium fighter wings.

[Megas]

That's fair, but at the end of the day just lower your expectations of a pure carrier in a duel. I wouldn't want Herons that could solo Hammerheads or Sunders, that would be broken, alongside their crazy bomber potential. You wouldn't put 5 Heavy autocannons on an Enforcer, take it easy, Heron with a Pulse laser or Phase lance is plenty for its defense.

It was not "broken" back in the day.  It could not solo multiple destroyers, only one, and even then, it took some damage after it won.  Same against two enemy frigates.  The best it could defend itself from was one destroyer and one frigate combo.  If a cruiser warship challenged the Heron, the Heron died.  If two destroyers challenged Heron, it died.  Heron under AI control was good enough to kill light resistance, not kill equal peers.  Also, Heron had extra OP from fleetwide skills (and Ordnance Expertise 10 that reduced cost of weapons), so it was stronger than enemy ships that had no extra OP.

I would not use five heavy autocannons on Enforcer because it lacks PD and anti-armor.  That said, something like five heavy needlers (or was it four needlers and one heavy mauler) was a viable loadout in older releases when ballistics had ammo, no minimum armor, and maximum armor was 75% (not 85+%).

Yeah, no. Heavy blaster + ITU + 20 vents isn't "basics". ITU is very much a luxury carriers shouldn't be able to afford, that's good.

It is for a destroyer, and Heron should be able to arm itself like one.  If a combat ship has gun mounts and uses them to shoot at enemies, regardless what it is, it should use ITU and have the flux to support it (unless it uses Safety Override, which defeats the point of ITU).

And I was not using bombers that cost 12 OP or more, just midgrade fighters or interceptors like Broadsword, Gladius, Claws, or Thunders that all cost 8 or 10 OP in the releases before 0.95.  Premium would be something worth 12+ OP, like Warthogs or Xyphos or any bomber that is not Piranha.

I tried all Talons on such a Heron (after the Talon nerf), and it was a disappointment, and it still felt OP starved.  I was better off with a full warship or a Heron with all (midgrade or premium) fighters and no guns.

Compared to a warship of equal size, Heron gives up mounts and stats like other full carriers.  Even if fully armed, it will never be a full warship.

[Amoebka]

If ITU is on everything, why not make it a core mechanic enabled by default and remove the hullmod? The way I see it, ITU is the advantage "real" warships get over more versatile ships, like carriers or combat freighters.

[Megas]

If ITU is on everything, why not make it a core mechanic enabled by default and remove the hullmod? The way I see it, ITU is the advantage "real" warships get over more versatile ships, like carriers or combat freighters.

I would so fully support ITU being intrinsic, but that debate happened years ago and that ship has sailed.  Alex chose not make ITU intrinsic for some reason.  I guess either because of clarity and/or for the ships that did not need it and could save OP, like ships with all missiles and no guns (when Safety Override did not exist).  I did not use ITU on something like a Mercury with all torpedoes back when skills enabled crazy stuff.

[Grievous69]

If ITU is on everything, why not make it a core mechanic enabled by default and remove the hullmod? The way I see it, ITU is the advantage "real" warships get over more versatile ships, like carriers or combat freighters.

Well frigates and destroyers don't really need it, so you can squeeze "extra" OP without it, phase ships also don't get much from it due to hit and run nature, carriers that aren't built for brawling don't need it, SO ships and likewise Unstable injector builds that are all about speed and flanking. Then there's ships like Aurora that even without any modifications could ignore ITU and go for something else. You get the point, we would lose a bit of customisation we have now (even though it is a no brainer option on most ships).

[Megas]

I do use ITU on phase ships.  I need to get some range back after Unstable Injector takes away some.  On Afflictor, I need some range so I can AMB things beyond ships' explosion radius.  Harbinger wants its maximum shot range to be roughly the same as QD range, and sometimes, I need ITU to match QD range.  With Doom, I do gun down small ships if blasters outrange their guns.

But yes, your point about ITU or not stands.

[Koyocire]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure carriers aren't supposed to mount premium weapons like heavy blasters. At that point they basically become competent warships that also have fighters for free.
If you are putting expensive bombers and carrier hullmods on a ship, you should only have barely enough for PD in every slot.

Even if the Heron got the +10 OP treatment that the Mora is getting, you don’t have to worry about it functioning as a decent warship if loaded with bombers and deck crews.  You’ll get a little more flux slightly upgraded PD.  My comment was about what happens when you remove the deck crews and downgrade to broadswords.  Even then, you just don’t have the OP to build a functional warship to use in conjunction with your fighters.  Certainly not at the 20 DP level.  Its a shame too.  Prior to 0.95, the Heron was my favorite ships and I used to fly it right in the middle of the action combining fighters with ship weapons to great effect.  Unfortunately the skills and meta changed and it’s really not a viable playstyle anymore.  I tried my hardest to make it work, but quickly realized that ships half the DP cost are significantly better in the players hands.  I’m just hoping the Heron becomes viable to play again some time in the future.  Until then, looks like the Legion is going to be a god tier ship in 0.95.1.

[SCC]

If ITU is on everything, why not make it a core mechanic enabled by default and remove the hullmod? The way I see it, ITU is the advantage "real" warships get over more versatile ships, like carriers or combat freighters.

ITU is the crutch for standard loadouts that cannot overcome bigger ships' lower mobility. SO, missileboats, carriers and phase ships don't need ITU to be effective.

[Yunru]

If everyone had ITU or no-one did it wouldn't make a difference. It's only if some do and some don't that it's more than just boosting range on the weapons themselves.

[Vanshilar]

0 capacitors for both builds... yikes dawg. But yeah they're middle of the road builds that seem fine on paper but the thing is some ships NEED specific hullmods, and there you get to the point where total OP starts feeling stingy.

That's just it though...why does it NEED specific hullmods? Is it because the ship inherently needs them, or because the player is trying to put them in a role that they're not well-suited for, or because the player is trying to put them in too "tough" of a situation? For example, the Medusa already has the second-highest flux capacity of all destroyers (only the Sunder has more), and the best (lowest) shield efficiency for absorbing damage. If you're having issues with it not having enough flux capacity, then chances are you're putting it into situations which destroyers shouldn't be in. Or if you're doing hit-and-run, put more points into flux capacity rather than dissipation, or be more judicious in how you spend your OP (for example, hit-and-run shouldn't put as much into PD so that more points can go into flux capacity).

Medusa AI getting hit through shields is more of an omni shield AI problem, which will hopefully be addressed in the next update, and it's not just limited to Medusas. I've seen an Odyssey tank a full 5-tachyon burst from a Radiant point-blank in the face because it opted to point its shields at a proximity charge from a Flash bomber over 2000 su away. That's a different issue for which additional OP isn't the correct fix.

[Grievous69]

Well there's a tiny difference that Odyssey doesn't drop its shields every 5 seconds it uses the movement ability. Medusas are too squishy to have such a slow shield so it's a reasonable suggestion that someone mentioned, give it built in Accelerated shields. And of course it's going to have top notch flux stats, it's the most expensive destroyer warship, I expect it to be good.

[Megas]

If everyone had ITU or no-one did it wouldn't make a difference. It's only if some do and some don't that it's more than just boosting range on the weapons themselves.

Without the generic range hullmods like ITU in the game, everything armed with similar weapons would have the same shot range regardless of ship size.  Smaller ships with superior mobility would be better.  Bigger ships get a bigger bonus from the range hullmods than smaller ships.

Without ITU, the range of a heavy autocannon from Conquest would be the same as one from a Brawler.  With ITU, the range of the heavy autocannon from Conquest would be much greater than one from a Brawler.

[Kanjejou]

If everyone had ITU or no-one did it wouldn't make a difference. It's only if some do and some don't that it's more than just boosting range on the weapons themselves.

Without the generic range hullmods like ITU in the game, everything armed with similar weapons would have the same shot range regardless of ship size.  Smaller ships with superior mobility would be better.  Bigger ships get a bigger bonus from the range hullmods than smaller ships.

Without ITU, the range of a heavy autocannon from Conquest would be the same as one from a Brawler.  With ITU, the range of the heavy autocannon from Conquest would be much greater than one from a Brawler.

Personaly i would prefer ITU to not be ship size dependant... because it make a lot of smaller ship unable to even get close to capital and cruiser...

[boogiebogus]

Personaly i would prefer ITU to not be ship size dependant... because it make a lot of smaller ship unable to even get close to capital and cruiser...

Well, that's sort of the point, isn't it? If destroyers and frigates could get away with flying close to a cruiser and getting out safely, then larger warships would have trouble with even a few frigates. The only solution would be to make large ships even more bristling with weapons which would get real silly real quick.

[Megas]

Well, that's sort of the point, isn't it? If destroyers and frigates could get away with flying close to a cruiser and getting out safely, then larger warships would have trouble with even a few frigates. The only solution would be to make large ships even more bristling with weapons which would get real silly real quick.

Especially since ships tend to have more mounts than their OP and/or dissipation can support, so adding more mounts alone does nothing.