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Author Topic: Ships that could use a slight OP boost  (Read 7563 times)

Grievous69

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Ships that could use a slight OP boost
« on: December 03, 2021, 01:29:17 AM »

Hmm - always looking to hear feedback on specific ships (other than the Mora, noted) that fall into this category!
I don't want to derail the original thread too much as there's already plenty of discussion so here go my thoughts.
Note: This list won't include any Derelict or Remnant ships as I haven't experimented with them much so I have no strong opinions. Phase ships will also be kinda ignore since they're getting reworked next patch so I'll wait to pass judgement.
This is also purely a discussion which ship feels limiting to build loadouts for WITHOUT s-mods, any sort of balance discussion should probably be in another thread (and yes I know OPs are a part of balance).

Frigates:
  • Wayfarer: I get that this is a hybrid ship but it really doesn't feel like it's worth 5 DP, it lacks the oomph to be used in actual battle, even in early game. For example Mule is a hybrid ship done right and has a place in combat. Just a slight OP buff could make it better as the base ship is too meh.
  • Brawler: Still don't get this ship, it's supposed to be like a fast artillery ship but in my experience doesn't do too much. It looks cool and seems great on paper but in reality it dies to a single Talon wing. But on topic, you can hardly put a single hullmod on this thing with decent weapons (it needs range). Maybe it just hasn't clicked for me but it could use a bit more OP.
  • Scarab: This ship is actually fine, but I really don't feel like the 5 OP loss is justified in the current patch notes. If it proceeds into the final build I'd probably put it here to begin with so just explaining in advance.
Destroyers:
  • Condor: Yea this is the cheapest carrier you can find but still it doesn't make sense why it has 45 OP, might as well remove all of its mounts if it's supposed to do nothing. Drover has whopping 70 OP with 2 small mounts more, it should honestly have less OP and not cost 15 DP. Bit off topic but had to say it.
  • Medusa: Feels like this ship dropped into the void as it's both incredibly hard to find, and once you find it you don't need it anymore really. I'd like to see an OP boost to enable it to compete with other fresh updated ships. It's not a weak ship by any means, I just have better options to deploy for equal cost.
Cruisers:
  • Fury: Ok if the Fury is honestly going to cost more than an Apogee now then at least give it more OP. You can make do with most builds now but for that cost I'd like to be able to fit a nice hullmod at least alongside the usual armaments.
  • Mora: Already mentioned in the original post where all of this started, but yeah it's a battle carrier where either you have Talons and ok guns, or barely anything fitted and decent fighters (which cost merely 8-12 OP, that's really not much on a cruiser cmon).
Capitals:
  • Astral: Even after the latest OP buffs I don't get how you're supposed to build this thing apart from the one and only build it makes sense. It's such a hyperspecialized capital that you want a full bomber loadout (again, not even the most expensive ones), WITHOUT Expanded deck crew and you still barely fit some beams around with 2 large missiles. I think I should just make peace with this ship and accept that it's just a huge catapult for bombers.
  • Atlas MkII: This is the single worst offender of this whole post, nothing feels more terrible to fit than this thing. At least it's getting burn 7 so there's that. But even with all the problems that come with it, it's hard to justify OP buffs without increasing its crazy low DP cost. The ship is truly scary when spammed I almost wish it was more of a real battleship with higher DP but at least you can do something else with it than to make a huge pinata. It's like a Buffalo MKII, but on drugs and everything is too big for its size. I just hate this ship because it's impossible to balance a capital with such low DP. Absolute crap when a single is your center of the fleet, and straight up busted when you spam large missiles with the rest of the Atlas herd.

Other ships I wanted to mention are already taken care of in the current patch notes so I didn't list them here.

EDIT: I should probably explain my train of thought when deciding a ship doesn't have sufficient OP. Anyways I went through all of the ships to remind myself what's problematic and I was building them with middle of the road weapons/fighters, maxed vents, and ITU if they can equip it. Some ships did have empty mounts but those were few as I'm not a huge fan of having half a ship with empty mounts and 1-2 huge guns. So if I can do all of that and have some leftovers for capacitors or another hullmod, the ship is mostly fine. But if I'm struggling to even get a single hullmod then that's not the greatest thing imo. Meaningful decision is trying to figure out which hullmod would be the best choice on current ship, not being unable to even get to that point by just having average weapons and flux, and already hitting the cap.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2021, 01:50:32 AM by Grievous69 »
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rabbistern

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Re: Ships that could use a slight OP boost
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2021, 03:17:31 AM »

ill chip in.

the wayfarer is a total joke, which really pains me as imo it has one of the most beautiful futuristic high-techy looking sprites in the game, yet you dont even have the op to make 3 weapons in its forward-side ark work, and thats forgoing all PD, and to add insult to injury, its not even remotely good as the logistic ship its supposed to be, compared to say, a buffalo and a dram. always painful to see main combat high tech look like blue-gray toilet bowls with generic monotonous armor-plating while davids masterpieces are odd one-offs, it would need some really significant buff to compete with wolves or lashers.

brawlers never worked for me, theyre both too fragile and immaneuverable to be a hardpoint-focused ship, but i dont know how much youd have to add to make them compete, theyre not the tanky PD escort that is the centurion, and theyre too slow to be a hunter-killer like most other frigates, maybe some extra OP could save them, maybe not.

the medusa should see an increase by 10 OP to bring it in line with with the other destroyers, or maybe just some better flux venting, sure. but i think the main issue with this ship really is that you never can aquire it in the game stages where a hypermobile alpha strike destroyer can be useful. but i think that this is a problem not exclusive to the medusa, but also the games progression in general, cruisers and capitals should have their prices increased by 2-4x so that destroyers arent DOA.

probably a hot take considering the fury is called overpowered as it is now, and increased to 20 dp, but i definetly agree that it needs more OP, or specifically, some better capacity stats, as thats what matters most for a plasma-burn alpha striker. although i have noticed that practically every fury build revolves around having CH, not sure what to make of that except for the generally known weakness of energy armaments.

Mora is probably the most balanced of the ones youve listed, with its system id think its supposed to be a defensive carrier, and its armament is pretty weak to be of offensive use anyway. maybe you could make it more offensively viable with more guns and more op, but theres already the legion for that, which is my favourite ship because it can fill every role decently well, whereas the mora appears to be made around being a tank simply by merit of having the damper field.

the Astral definetly and absolutely did NOT get buffed. its easily the heaviest nerf a ship in the game has seen. before it was ZFZFZFZF and youd have deleted a star fortress, with the cooldown i have found it hard to pressure anything, as 30 seconds is a lot in combat. there should be some fix, but the extra OP probably isnt it. the astral only brings some support beams and missiles as armament anyway and with expensive bombers i have no issue fitting that, and no amount of OP would make you able to put some direct combat armaments on it. the system without cooldown is without a doubt overpowered, but maybe 15-20 seconds should be nerf enough without giving the enemy ships enough time to shake off the damage you did.
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Grievous69

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Re: Ships that could use a slight OP boost
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2021, 03:36:04 AM »

Oh I was just talking about the OP increase Astral got, I know it got hit hard with the nerf bat, not worth 50 DP it is now. And I would be fine with all the nerfs if it could actually use its weapon mounts, otherwise why even have them.

Similar story with the Mora, I'm fully aware it's a brick. I usually leave the ballistic hardpoint empty because why bother, and with that it still barely does anything. ITU is way too expensive for Mora, bang for your buck is just bad. Then you're just left with 2 missile mounts which are nice, but there's no room for EMR. Anyways in the end, if I want a fleet anchor, I usually get something which can deal damage back, and for a carrier, Heron is always the better choice. Mora feels like a half of Legion, gimped so it has maybe 25% of its firepower, but is very annoying to fight against. I almost wish it was less tanky so it doesn't end up like a boxing bag with million hp (like seriously it takes longer to kill than a capital).
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JUDGE! slowpersun

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Re: Ships that could use a slight OP boost
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2021, 03:37:50 AM »

Regarding all carriers you listed (and basically just carriers in general, except Shepard), at least some of their issues stem from the inconsistent nerfing/unbalancing of fighters & bombers in general.  So perhaps the carrier issues should be generally separated from regular ships.  You don't need to be Megas to know there are issues afoot with carriers/fighters & bombers!  But until there is a more specific carriers/fighters/bombers balancing patch (ideally with at least waypointing, if not pathfinding, but that is a topic for another thread) , kinda pointless to discuss them in a vacuum...

As for the Astral specifically, well, that is interesting.  I dunno which
one and only build it makes sense.
you're referring to, but unless you want to arm your glass cannon with MIRVs for some of that extra BOOM (when it blows up from being Icarus, not when it blows other stuff up), putting large missile weapons in the large missile slots are a trap.  Astrals basically exist to use Plums in its missile slots.  Accept it or start sacrificing carrier slots for extra OP necessary for large missile weapons.  Which defeats the purpose of the Astral's long range capabilities, recall device isn't intended for close range use... although yes, it can be used to further speed up the stream of bombers.  Just also speeds up CR decay if close to enemy ships; sometimes range is good!

However, I do agree that it seems odd that Astral has to basically choose between using the only real useful carrier hull mod (Expanded Deck Crew), actually using decent fighters/bombers, and shaving OP with cruddier weapons in slots.  Though some of this personal cognitive dissonance just naturally arises from trappish nature of having to shave OP with cruddier weapons in general, since it seems to essentially violate multiple basic design principles existing in real life (form follows function, KISS principle, don't use 5 when 3 will do, etc.).  Really ****s on verisimilitude, although I of course accept some level of abstraction (and therefore compromise) is necessary since this is a game.  But no one in real life adds stuff (weapon slots) in order to be left empty.  I mean, if there was some in-game lore reason why stuff can and should be left empty, fine.  But as far as I know, there isn't.  Hmm, funny, OP reposted as I was drafting with same complaint, why put extra weapon slots in unless its a newb trap?

As for the addition of the 30 second cool down to the Recall Device (plus normal crazy high flux cost), allowing 2 charges with like a 25 second recharge per charge would be a much better alternative.  Another alternative is just to have a shorter cool down with a growth curve over time, so shorter earlier in battle but grows over time; this second alternative does seem a much messier compromise though...
« Last Edit: December 03, 2021, 03:40:01 AM by slowpersun »
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Strict

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Re: Ships that could use a slight OP boost
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2021, 03:58:20 AM »

Mora is bad by design. No amount of OP will save this ship, unless it's insane amount wich will make this ship overpowered.
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Jackundor

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Re: Ships that could use a slight OP boost
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2021, 04:32:45 AM »

Legion. It has the lowest OP of all Capitals apart from Pirates and Pathers. And battlecarriers need more OP. Also, why doesn't the XIV version get more op like all ( i think) other xiv versions?
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SCC

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Re: Ships that could use a slight OP boost
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2021, 04:38:34 AM »

, since it seems to essentially violate multiple basic design principles existing in real life (form follows function, KISS principle, don't use 5 when 3 will do, etc.).  Really ****s on verisimilitude, although I of course accept some level of abstraction (and therefore compromise) is necessary since this is a game.  But no one in real life adds stuff (weapon slots) in order to be left empty.
If it was all simple and intuitive, there wouldn't be much challenge to overcome, no? That, and Alex doesn't immediately know what slots will or will not be used, and ultimately it helps, since ships are assigned OP on a "X per mount, plus some extra" basis.

Grievous69

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Re: Ships that could use a slight OP boost
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2021, 04:44:50 AM »

But it does have more? Base Legion has 260 OP, XIV one has 270, but honestly it doesn't even need it. I'd argue the base Legion needs it more than the XIV variant, it's already strong and with OP buffs it could easily become crazy, 2 large missile slots make a world of difference since you need way less vents than on the normal one. Base Legion HAS to use low flux large ballistics, otherwise it will flux itself out even with max vents, you can still comfortably pick your fighter escort I think.

There really is a trend how many low tech ships struggle with their own weapons and low OP (not all), and instead of getting more dissipation they're getting even more hp and armour. It seems like Alex wants to slow down the combat from the looks of things. Enforcer can't even use its mounts > gets tankier, Dominator is outshined by other cruisers > gets tankier (although I recall some flux buffs in current patch notes), and lastly Legion is now also getting hp buffs.

EDIT: I sincerely hope Eradicator will at least be one low tech ship that doesn't flux itself out after 3 seconds of firing anything.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2021, 04:46:34 AM by Grievous69 »
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SCC

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Re: Ships that could use a slight OP boost
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2021, 04:46:13 AM »

Don't forget Onslaught, it's also getting a buff.

Grievous69

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Re: Ships that could use a slight OP boost
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2021, 04:47:53 AM »

Don't forget Onslaught, it's also getting a buff.
Don't see anything in notes about it. Maybe you're confusing it with the current version since we got plenty of Onslaught buffs that time.
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Jackundor

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Re: Ships that could use a slight OP boost
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2021, 04:50:36 AM »

But it does have more? Base Legion has 260 OP, XIV one has 270

it does? Huh, i couldn't remember how many it has and looked at the wiki and that says 260 for the xiv one
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Jackundor

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Re: Ships that could use a slight OP boost
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2021, 04:51:42 AM »

also, yeah, more flux instead of just more tankiness on low tech ships would be nice...
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JUDGE! slowpersun

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Re: Ships that could use a slight OP boost
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2021, 05:18:01 AM »

If it was all simple and intuitive, there wouldn't be much challenge to overcome, no? That, and Alex doesn't immediately know what slots will or will not be used, and ultimately it helps, since ships are assigned OP on a "X per mount, plus some extra" basis.
I mean, the rest of the game is still a challenge.  Fleet composition, supply/fuel consumption, $$ generation, colonies, battle tactical choices, game storyline.  Besides, I'm not saying that the flux system isn't an elegant solution to ammo counters, or that the capability to customize ship flux capacity isn't interesting.  But weapon choice per ship mount layout does seem to particularly opaque to the average player.  Said average player seems to only get like 50+ hours into the game before they realize they can put smaller weapons into a larger mount size... which at least gives it the appearance of a newb trap, even if that wasn't the intention.

Plus, isn't OP determined by an "X per mount per mount size, plus a totally arbitrary amount that may change every patch for balance reasons" basis?

also, yeah, more flux instead of just more tankiness on low tech ships would be nice...

I think this runs counter to the meta of low tech ships, tanky and slow vs. hi tech ships being fast and flux efficient but heavily reliant on shields.  Not to mention low tech getting a lot of love with next patch to hopefully counter the obvious advantages of the hi tech meta.  But yeah, Mora is kinda ridiculous.  Why can't it also just poop fighters out the back like the Legion?  Both are low tech battle carriers...
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Megas

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Re: Ships that could use a slight OP boost
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2021, 06:03:01 AM »

Problems with Wayfarer is Front Shields and Flares for a system, and mediocre stats.  It has unreliable rear defenses, almost as bad as Brawler.  It is no good in a fight even during the early-game (always the first to die even in the first or second battle of a new game).  Back in 0.72, with better skills and terrible Centurion, Warfarer was decent, but now it is bad.

Agreed on Medusa.  I find it hard to max vents, and caps are usually at zero.  It has enough OP to get just the basics.  If I try to get fancy with it, it lacks OP and the flux stats.  It is not the terror it used to be in the 0.6 releases.

As long as fighters are expensive as they are, I think Drover has decent OP, and if it will cost 15 DP, then the last thing it needs is a further nerf (of OP or DP).  If Drover needs another nerf, then shorten the shield so that it cannot get 360 shields with Front Shields.  Part of what makes Drover good is 360 shields so it can stay unarmed and have time to run away or stall until it gets help.

Fury feels like an extra-large Shrike.  It can fit basic or spartan loadouts (two good weapons and a missile, leave unnecessary mounts empty).  But yes, if it will cost more than Apogee, it should feel more like a normal cruiser and less of a Shrike with more flux and hp.

If Mora has low OP, Heron is even worse.  While I have trouble fitting medium missiles and a bunch of cheap to mid-grade ballistics on Mora, at least it has enough OP to fit some logistics hullmods if I go all fighters and no guns route.  (I often use Mora as improved exploration ships.)  Heron has less OP than Mora, and has no room for logistics hullmods after I get fighters and few PD weapons.  Also, Heron is practically a high-tech ship with midline coloring, and if I want it to use Heavy Blaster and some beam PD, it needs max vents and ITU.  Back before 0.8, Heron was able to support a destroyer-tier warship weapons package, and brawl against small enemies that try to sack it, while supported whatever fighters it needed.  (And it was not enough during 0.7 because new officers at the time made carriers obsolete.)  Now, it is either guns or fighters for Heron, and since Heron is a carrier, I take fighters every time.  Leave guns to warships.  Even worse, cruisers with large missiles (namely Apogee) or Doom capture the feel of classic carriers from before 0.8a better than modern post 0.8a carriers.

Astral is a bomber platform.  After I get six high-end bombers, Expanded Deck Crew, and Augmented Drive Field, it is basically out of OP.  Naturally, my Astral (if I use it) is nearly unarmed.  This is unlike pre-0.8 when I can put three heavy blasters, get ITU and warship stuff, and brawl against Dominators and the like, while still able to support fighters.  Today, it is all fighters and no guns.

Agreed on Atlas2.  At first, I tried to fill those mounts to have that age-of-sail pirate ship fantasy, but that does not work - not enough OP to get the basics.  I have to concur that is it primarily a Gauss-and-missiles platform.  It does not feel good.


Dedicated carriers in general:  They should be able to use whatever fighters they want, Expanded Deck Crew (because it is a carrier's job to use fighters, and Deck Crew is a second ITU), and full weapons package of a smaller warship, much like in the pre-0.8 releases.  I do not think adding OP here and there will be enough.  It is a systemic problem.  The problem with most carriers is they have two ITUs if they want both fighters and guns:  ITU and Expanded Deck Crew.  After it gets good fighters and Deck Crew, there is (usually) not enough OP left for a viable weapons package, and its job is to hide while fighters do all of the work because they have no guns.  Even with Legion that (barely) has enough OP, it leaves many mounts empty, but then it needs to anyway because of its terrible flux stats.  After I get something like Mark IX and HAG, Legion does not have enough flux to support anything else.  What to do with all of that OP?  Get fighters and Deck Crew!

As for Legion XIV, since the point of it is to spam Hammer Barrage (or other large missile), I consider it a missileship (extra-large Champion) despite having enough bays to be a dedicated carrier.  No other ship can do what it can do, except maybe upcoming Neural-Linked Radiant, which is double large missiles plus an array of guns pointing forward.  (Conquest does not count because its guns are broadsides while missiles shoot forwards.)  Basically, get all the missiles, enough guns to create an opening for those missiles, and spam away.  Ignore deck crew and shove mining pod meat shields since they are free.  I kind of wish Legion XIV gets Expanded Missile Racks built-in for free like Gryphon.
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DaShiv

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Re: Ships that could use a slight OP boost
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2021, 07:21:06 AM »

Adding in Remnant ships:

Lumen: 35 OP is a joke for a 4 DP combat frigate that also costs a top tier skill. Other 4 DP frigates: 55 OP for Centurion and Lasher, and 45 OP for Wolf (P).

Brilliant: 140 OP is also too low for a 25 DP cruiser. Compare: Dominator (25 DP, 200 OP), Champion (25 DP, 165 OP), and Eagle (22 DP, 155/160 OP). The Brilliant has an OP penalty for its fighter bay, but it's a bad fighter bay with very limited options (especially bombers). The ship is generally overcosted at 25 DP compared to Champion and Apogee, especially considering the very limited Automated Ships DP pool.

Fulgents and Scintillas are also sidegrades at best compared to their non-Automated Ships counterparts and could use some minor buffs (due to poor flux for Fulgent vs other high tech destroyers, and poor fighter options and ship system mismatch for Scintilla). It's rather telling that Radiants and Glimmers are the only Remnant ships worth using Automated Ships on at endgame, since players can no longer spam Lumens to pump up deployment.
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