Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Hatter]

Please give all the People of Kemet ships the 'Civilian' hint so they don't take DP limits from skills, allowing them to be used as logistic vessels.

[Wyvern]

Finally Got around to testing version 0.2.2h; I don't have a lot of feedback yet... But I found a "Ultraheavy Net of Enrapture", and firing it in the simulator results in an immediate game crash:

Code

4676702 [Thread-4] ERROR com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain  - java.lang.NullPointerException
java.lang.NullPointerException
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.ai.ProximityFuseAI.updateDamage(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.ai.ProximityFuseAI.<init>(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.loading.specs.a.o00000(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.loading.specs.a.o00000(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.entities.ship.super.O0oOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.o00000(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.entities.ship.super.O0oOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.fireProjectile(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.entities.ship.trackers.OoOO.øO0000(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.entities.ship.trackers.OoOO.o00000(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.entities.ship.trackers.String.super(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.entities.ship.trackers.String.super(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.entities.ship.trackers.OoOO.Ô00000(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.entities.ship.super.O0oOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.advance(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.systems.oOoO.advanceLinked(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.systems.oOoO.advance(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.entities.Ship.fire(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.entities.Ship.advance(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatEngine.advanceInner(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatEngine.advance(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatState.traverse(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.state.AppDriver.begin(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain.main(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher.super(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher$1.run(Unknown Source)
	at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:745)

[Zumberge]

Apologies for the bump and the unsolicited link in a moment.

I had stumbled across this mod and it's fantastically visually striking and unique, so I tried it out and found some, uh... balance issues - some mentioned already, some not.  I did compose an AAR/write-up about the short run using it and me poking around with the ships (hopefully the link goes to the right place) which talks about it.  It was written with a hypothetical general audience in mind, and as the creator you absolutely know about the mod, so it's hopefully it's of some use and not condescending or rude.  Or rude because it's unsolicited or assuming too much.

The write-up would have been put in the post but it's a little wordy and it didn't seem prudent to bury someone in a block of text right off the bat.

[King Alfonzo]

Apologies for the bump and the unsolicited link in a moment.

I had stumbled across this mod and it's fantastically visually striking and unique, so I tried it out and found some, uh... balance issues - some mentioned already, some not.  I did compose an AAR/write-up about the short run using it and me poking around with the ships (hopefully the link goes to the right place) which talks about it.  It was written with a hypothetical general audience in mind, and as the creator you absolutely know about the mod, so it's hopefully it's of some use and not condescending or rude.  Or rude because it's unsolicited or assuming too much.

The write-up would have been put in the post but it's a little wordy and it didn't seem prudent to bury someone in a block of text right off the bat.

This is fantastic! Many thanks!

Despite it appearing not so, I am trying to keep Kemet balanced. it's just I've found it fairly difficult to actually do that; trying to balance a projectile energy weapon faction while keeping it interesting is a pain in the neck.

Regarding your feedback:
-I have been fiddling with the balance in the background, but haven't released because of Content I plan on adding (it's proving difficult to sprite a Battlecruiser).

-I'll look back into the flux code to make sure Seshat is working - it's one of the key methods of balancing Kemet against itself. Typically kemet weapons should be more flux intensive to use, with Kemet getting the discount. I think I may have already fixed this in dev at some point?
-I'll fiddle with the Urn and try and balance it - In dev it's closer to an EMP weapon than a kinetic weapon.
-I'll also look back through the weapons and downtune a few in damage.
-A lot of the really BAD missiles now in replenish ammo.
-I'll change the Amun Placement system to have one less charge.
-I've made the Khonsur lower in DP to make it more attractive.
-I'll apply the nerf bat to the Hetepes (making it more sluggish perhaps?).
-The Lapis Line is getting a nerf; the shield efficiency now tanks on using the system, making using it far more risky to use in combat situations. It also makes the Lapis more defensive in nature, being the anvil to the Safflower and Ua-Uat lines.
-I completely forgot that delicate machinery is supposed to be built-in on vanilla phase ships. I will similarly include it here.
-I'll experiment with increasing the cooldown on the Phase Cloak; you're right in that they're supposed to be ambush brawlers, and so I'm going to make it that they can get more easily 'caught out' like the Ring Cloak ships.

Once again - many thanks for writing down your thoughts, it really helps!

[Wyvern]

One thing that makes it hard to balance Kemet against vanilla is energy weapon ranges: the Kemet weapons tend to have longer ranges, and their hulls are balanced around that... but that makes those same guns somewhat exceptional when mounted on vanilla ships.

I'd suggest riffing off the Ballistic Rangefinder hullmod, and moving some of the Kemet weaponry range from being inherent to the weapons, and instead being a hullmod on Kemet ships that boosts the range of explicitly just Kemet weaponry.* (I'd be happy to contribute the code you'd need for this, too - I look at this and think it's relatively simple to implement, but, uh, I do programming as my job, so my definition of 'simple' may not match anyone else's.)

For example, the Jar Lightning Cannon is a large energy weapon with a range of 900. For it to be balanced against its competing vanilla options, it'd need to have that range reduced to at least 700... or maybe even less, given its specialized nature gives it some advantages over energy-damage-typed weaponry.
Even standard Kemet small weaponry tend to have ranges of 600 to 700, compared to vanilla weaponry that's generally 500.

As such, I'd suggest an all-around reduction of Kemet weapon ranges by 300 for all sizes of energy weaponry, to be balanced out by a hullmod that grants Kemet weaponry +300 base range when installed on Kemet hulls.
(Edit: Or maybe less than 300 for some of the more mobile, high-tech-styled Kemet hulls? The yellow fast-strike style hulls might be easier to balance without the full range boost...)

(If you're feeling particularly clever, you could even consider making that a modular hullmod with a high OP cost and, say, a 25% reduction in ship speed, allowing a player to essentially convert a high-tech ship into something that plays more low-tech style... Though, hm. That might just introduce its own balance issues. Eh, it's an idea. Edit2: ...Yeah, the Paragon exists, this probably isn't a good idea.)

*Edit3: Why just Kemet weaponry? Because the Heavy Blaster exists and distorts all mount options around itself. In general, a specialized option for a weapon slot (i.e., a Kemet weapon dealing kinetic or HE damage) is going to be a better choice than a generalist option (vanilla weapon dealing energy damage)... And then you get to the Heavy Blaster, that beats out specialist options by just putting out that much more DPS. If it also got a Kemet range boost on top of the existing Kemet flux-efficiency boost, it'd be a no-brainer choice to install at least one on every ship, likely in place of Kemet's specialized HE weaponry because you don't need that much armor-cracking. So it needs to not get the range boost.

[King Alfonzo]

One thing that makes it hard to balance Kemet against vanilla is energy weapon ranges: the Kemet weapons tend to have longer ranges, and their hulls are balanced around that... but that makes those same guns somewhat exceptional when mounted on vanilla ships.

I'd suggest riffing off the Ballistic Rangefinder hullmod, and moving some of the Kemet weaponry range from being inherent to the weapons, and instead being a hullmod on Kemet ships that boosts the range of explicitly just Kemet weaponry.* (I'd be happy to contribute the code you'd need for this, too - I look at this and think it's relatively simple to implement, but, uh, I do programming as my job, so my definition of 'simple' may not match anyone else's.)

For example, the Jar Lightning Cannon is a large energy weapon with a range of 900. For it to be balanced against its competing vanilla options, it'd need to have that range reduced to at least 700... or maybe even less, given its specialized nature gives it some advantages over energy-damage-typed weaponry.
Even standard Kemet small weaponry tend to have ranges of 600 to 700, compared to vanilla weaponry that's generally 500.

As such, I'd suggest an all-around reduction of Kemet weapon ranges by 300 for all sizes of energy weaponry, to be balanced out by a hullmod that grants Kemet weaponry +300 base range when installed on Kemet hulls.
(Edit: Or maybe less than 300 for some of the more mobile, high-tech-styled Kemet hulls? The yellow fast-strike style hulls might be easier to balance without the full range boost...)

(If you're feeling particularly clever, you could even consider making that a modular hullmod with a high OP cost and, say, a 25% reduction in ship speed, allowing a player to essentially convert a high-tech ship into something that plays more low-tech style... Though, hm. That might just introduce its own balance issues. Eh, it's an idea. Edit2: ...Yeah, the Paragon exists, this probably isn't a good idea.)

*Edit3: Why just Kemet weaponry? Because the Heavy Blaster exists and distorts all mount options around itself. In general, a specialized option for a weapon slot (i.e., a Kemet weapon dealing kinetic or HE damage) is going to be a better choice than a generalist option (vanilla weapon dealing energy damage)... And then you get to the Heavy Blaster, that beats out specialist options by just putting out that much more DPS. If it also got a Kemet range boost on top of the existing Kemet flux-efficiency boost, it'd be a no-brainer choice to install at least one on every ship, likely in place of Kemet's specialized HE weaponry because you don't need that much armor-cracking. So it needs to not get the range boost.

One thing you might've missed, is that Kemet weapons (specifically Ma'at and Ka ranges) already get a range bonus to range on Kemet hulls (specifically with hulls that have Seshat Systems, it's the first yellow line in the Seshat Systems hullmod). A lot of the Kemet weapons are balanced around being 600 units on a vanilla ship, and 700 units on a kemet ship. This is because right up until I checked five seconds ago, I was under the impression that all energy weapons were 600 units in range. I'm honestly not quite sure when the range change actually occured, I distinctly remember pulse lasers and IR pulse lasers being 600 units in 0.8.1a, but that might be me misremembering things.

I'll give a lot of weapons a range nerf, and make up for it with a bonus to range in the hullmod. Thanks for the catch!

[Wyvern]

One thing you might've missed, is that Kemet weapons (specifically Ma'at and Ka ranges) already get a range bonus to range on Kemet hulls (specifically with hulls that have Seshat Systems, it's the first yellow line in the Seshat Systems hullmod). A lot of the Kemet weapons are balanced around being 600 units on a vanilla ship, and 700 units on a kemet ship. This is because right up until I checked five seconds ago, I was under the impression that all energy weapons were 600 units in range. I'm honestly not quite sure when the range change actually occured, I distinctly remember pulse lasers and IR pulse lasers being 600 units in 0.8.1a, but that might be me misremembering things.

I'll give a lot of weapons a range nerf, and make up for it with a bonus to range in the hullmod. Thanks for the catch!

Possibly I didn't notice because I'm still running version 0.0.2d rather than the current 0.0.2h? As I noted a few posts up, I tried 0.0.2h and pretty much immediately got a 'this weapon crashes the game when fired' bug. So I rolled back to the version that didn't crash.

(For reference, vanilla projectile-based energy weapon ranges are typically 500 for small weapons, 600 for medium weapons, and 700 for large weapons. A few specialized guns have shorter ranges, but nothing that deals hard flux has a longer range.)

[King Alfonzo]

(For reference, vanilla projectile-based energy weapon ranges are typically 500 for small weapons, 600 for medium weapons, and 700 for large weapons. A few specialized guns have shorter ranges, but nothing that deals hard flux has a longer range.)

HA HA I'm an idiot. In addition to thinking that energy ranges were 600, not 500, it turns out the range boost that should be happening - wasn't! Not to mention the flux reduction wasn't working properly until a recent beta, along with fixing the weapon crash.

Anyway, in the wake of the Discord All-Fonzo Tournament: AN UPDATE.

Changes with 0.0.4


Kemet Weapons
-Seshat Hullmod now actually works. Before there actually wasn't a range boost nor a flux bonus. Now there is.
-Projectile speeds have been increased to compensate
-Ranges have been reduced by 100 across the board, and Seshat now boosts by 200 units (Thanks to Wyvern for the suggestion!)

Cups
-Projectiles no longer explode, now deal extra damage to fighters.

Vases
-Projectiles now deal extra damage to missiles.

Urns
-Deal less direct damage.

Jars
-No longer fires in bursts, now mag limited

Furnace
-On-Ht Explosions are now fragmentation instead of HE

Kilns
-Sounds made less obnoxious

Kemet Missiles
-All low-grade Ba missiles passively reload, increased range

Kemet Ships

Lapis Ships
-Lots of flux stats and speeds reduced due to Seshat Systems being fixed
-Nahkt ship shield system effiency is now halved when active
-All Nahkts have their reload rates reduced, and while active lose pd functionality

Ammit
-Graced with a Nerf Bat

Safflower ships
-Flux capacities slightly reduced due to Seshat Systems being fixed

Itn
-Whacked with a nerf bat due to Seshat Systems being fixed.

Khonsur
-Made cheaper to maintain and deploy

Hetepes
-Whacked with a nerf bat

Kemet Phase
-Ships are now more fragile, lower ppt, and have delicate machinery

Kemet Fighters
-One less number per wing, longer refits

[REDACTED]
-???
-Will need a new campaign to observe.

Download HERE.

NOT SAVEGAME COMPATIBLE, sorry - due to some fixes with Sema-Tawy the update is not compatible.

[King Alfonzo]

Stylistic note:  I would remove or change the mention of Swiss cheese in the Safflower's description, I know what it is, but nobody else in the Sector would.

Balance notes:  Upon having played through a campaign and a half of vanilla .96, I retract my comments that the Covenant has a long way to go to be vanilla balanced.  With every new version of vanilla, "vanilla-balanced" means less and less.  The only weapons I still have concerns about are the Heavy Urn Pulser and the energy mount Furnace needlers.  The needlers, even with the damage type nerf, still obliterate armor like the Disintegrator used to back in .95.  Since their initial damage type is High Explosive, they're pretty much always going to crack armor and so the Frag-type secondary explosion might well do MORE damage than before the nerf.

I pointed out in my praise for the Ionos, that it's worth it to me to put Expanded Magazines on it just for a few extra shots on my single Hungering Furnace Cannon.  Now in .96, S-Modded Expanded Magazines are going to make the Covenant weapons absolutely disgusting.  I can't wait, but if I like them so much, they MUST be a little imbalanced.  I'm not the "spreadsheets" kind of guy, I did my proofreading in NotePad (PLEASE make sure I didn't screw anything up formatting-wise), somebody like Wyvern can probably come up with a mathematically sound nerf for the Furnace weapons.  Personally (and keep in mind I haven't even played Covenant in .96 yet, this is purely hypothetical), I would maybe make the initial impact of the needles Fragmentation and the secondary explosion High Explosive, this might make them still great at cracking armor but less likely to completely destroy an unshielded ship in a single burst.

The Heavy Urn Pulser is troublesome purely because of its accuracy and effectiveness at extreme long ranges.  Something with the homing, range, and tendency to stack on itself of the vanilla Pilum, but fired four or more at a time from the plentiful energy mounts on Covenant ships, and breaking shields like HVD bullets, is just too strong.  Nothing in vanilla, and very little in the Alfonzo modsuite, can deal with 2500 effective ranged homing kinetic damage.  For a truly brutal nerf, I would suggest making the projectile have its actual listed range and disappear once it reaches that range.  If that's too harsh, maybe just have the projectiles stop homing after their listed range, if that's possible (I don't know enough scripting to know for sure).

For the others, I'd have to actually play the mod in the new version.  In .95, it was only a few beams and Omega tech weapons that let Energy mounts have other types of damage, now Energy's only weakness against Ballistic is range.  So the Covenant giving Energy mounts other damage types is irrelevant to balance.

Thanks for the feedback Network, and much appreciation for the spell checking you legend!

I fear I haven't done a lot of balance checking with Kemet yet, being mostly focused on luddic Enhancement and HMI, so I'm not sure about the whole s-mod of expanded mags thing. I'll need to see how it pans out moving forwards. One thing I will say however is that if the Furnace is made Fragmentation, then the AI won't know to shield against it. I'll make the damage lower tho, so it's less diabolical.


Holy Covenant of Kemet 0.0.4a
Changes:
-Updated for 0.96a.

-The Stella now fires three Lily grenades instead of a MIRV, which was causing odd graphical weirdness.
-A lot of fighter weapons have been tweaked, so that fighters are less cancerous.
-Furnace damage been slightly reduced.
-Heavy Urn Pulser now burns out quicker.
-Tweaked a couple of other weapons and hull stats.

DOWNLOAD HERE.
Please give me a yell if anything explodes.

[Wyvern]

Ooh, neat! I shall give this a try and provide feedback once I have.

(Worst case, re: s-modded Expanded Magazines, you ban its use on Covenant ships, incorporate its bonuses into the covenant built-in, and then balance the weapons around that, making them weaker-than-intended when used on non-Covenant vessels without s-modded Expanded Magazines. But that's also a rather drastic step, and may not be needed.)

[King Alfonzo]

Ooh, neat! I shall give this a try and provide feedback once I have.

(Worst case, re: s-modded Expanded Magazines, you ban its use on Covenant ships, incorporate its bonuses into the covenant built-in, and then balance the weapons around that, making them weaker-than-intended when used on non-Covenant vessels without s-modded Expanded Magazines. But that's also a rather drastic step, and may not be needed.)

Honestly I'm not sure whether I should just have Bolt Coherer (or an improved version of it) as a built-in on Covenant hulls, and balance everything relative to vanilla, and cut out the jank of the rest of the system so Kemet ships have more utility out of non-Kemet weaponry, and non-Kemet ships get more utility out of Kemet weaponry, but still getting a decent bonus out of them. Something to consider.

[Wyvern]

Welp, first up, fatal errors:

Code

111230 [Thread-4] ERROR com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain  - java.lang.NullPointerException
java.lang.NullPointerException
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.ai.ProximityFuseAI.updateDamage(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.ai.ProximityFuseAI.<init>(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.loading.specs.ifsuper.super(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.loading.specs.ifsuper.super(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.entities.ship.A.J.o00000(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.entities.ship.A.J.fireProjectile(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.entities.ship.trackers.OoOO.Óo0000(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.entities.ship.trackers.OoOO.o00000(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.entities.ship.trackers.D.o00000(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.entities.ship.trackers.D.o00000(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.entities.ship.trackers.OoOO.Ô00000(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.entities.ship.A.J.advance(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.systems.oOoO.advanceLinked(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.systems.oOoO.advance(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.entities.Ship.fire(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.entities.Ship.advance(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatEngine.advanceInner(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatEngine.advance(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatState.traverse(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.state.AppDriver.begin(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain.main(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher.super(Unknown Source)
	at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher$1.run(Unknown Source)
	at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:745)

To replicate, put a Net Launcher or Heavy Net Launcher on a ship, load up the simulator, and fire it.
Edit: Or, presumably, an Ultraheavy Net of Enrapture, though I didn't test that one this time.

[Network Pesci]

That's strange, I'm not able to replicate that same problem.  I'm only level 3 in a new modded campaign with Xhan and the Alfonzo modsuite, LazyLib, GraphicsLib, MagicLib, and Locked and Loaded.  I have changed my vmparams to use more RAM (-Xms4096m -Xmx4096m) to handle all these mods, and I'm using the Java version that comes with the .96a RC10 download.  I'm able to use the Heavy Net Launcher just fine in both the simulator and real campaign battles.  I haven't found a Net Launcher or an Ultraheavy Net of Enrapture to test yet.

https://i.imgur.com/s1GCvOe.jpg

[Wyvern]

Interesting. I wonder if maybe there's a file case issue somewhere? I'm guessing that your success is occurring on windows, while I'm running on macos.

I've done a bit of digging through the mod, and I don't see anything in the data with non-matching cases, but what else could it be? The crash is 100% reliable on my system.

For reference, I'm currently running with LazyLib 2.8, MagicLib 1.1.1-rc02, and GraphicsLib 1.7.0. Version Checker claims that these are the most up-to-date versions, and the crash happens even if I pare my modlist down to just those required dependencies.
(Edit: And, yes, using Starsector with 0.96a-RC10 with its included java version.)
(Edit2: Also worth noting that the crash occurs in both missions & campaign.)

[Network Pesci]

I am running my copy on Windows 7.  I mentioned the Java because I know some people change their Java to a new version and looking at the last line of your crash report I thought that might be the issue.  I am using those exact same versions of LazyLib, MagicLib, and GraphicsLib as well.



(EDIT)  Most impressive!  Good work Wyvern, glad you figured it out.