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Starsector 0.95.1a is out! (12/10/21); Blog post: Hyperspace Topography (10/12/22)

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Author Topic: [0.95.1a-RC6] Hiver Swarm - V1.02 - Happy Birthday Hivers! 11/18/22  (Read 99793 times)

Xomi

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Re: [0.95.1a-RC6] Hiver Swarm - V0.99 - 09/24/22
« Reply #195 on: September 24, 2022, 12:58:50 PM »

Hi, Dazz

Thank you for the update, i was able to load a new version in my game, so should be save compitable. Good mod, appreciate your work!
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Dazs

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Re: [0.95.1a-RC6] Hiver Swarm - V0.99 - 09/24/22
« Reply #196 on: September 24, 2022, 01:06:41 PM »

Hi, Dazz

Thank you for the update, i was able to load a new version in my game, so should be save compitable. Good mod, appreciate your work!

Thank you for the kind words, makes it worth the effort :) Enjoy!

Bonisagus

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Re: [0.95.1a-RC6] Hiver Swarm - V0.99 - 09/24/22
« Reply #197 on: October 02, 2022, 02:12:00 PM »

Thanks for making a great and highly entertaining mod. I love both this one and Junk Yard Dogs dearly.

I have a question and a possible bug.

Is it truly intended that the Burrower-class Standard Drone Tender only cost 3 DP to field? That seems a tad on the cheap side.

I think the eyes are a bit bugged atm. They only show up for me after I "strip" a ship and then they keep showing up again and again if I strip it more times.

Thanks again!
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Dazs

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Re: [0.95.1a-RC6] Hiver Swarm - V0.99 - 09/24/22
« Reply #198 on: October 02, 2022, 02:40:59 PM »

Thanks for making a great and highly entertaining mod. I love both this one and Junk Yard Dogs dearly.
That is so kind and nice to hear, thank you!
I have a question and a possible bug.

Is it truly intended that the Burrower-class Standard Drone Tender only cost 3 DP to field? That seems a tad on the cheap side.
Oh my that has to be a boo boo on my part since it is a cruiser it should be around 20-30 DP. I'll have that amended next update, thank you.
I think the eyes are a bit bugged atm. They only show up for me after I "strip" a ship and then they keep showing up again and again if I strip it more times.

Thanks again!
Well they ARE Bug eyes! (sorry for the dad joke) It could be because I originally had them as built-in but changed it to mounted so they could be looted.

I'll look into both issues and have a fix when I can. I am working on an update for JYD but these seem like quick fixes I can bang out tomorrow when I have a spare hour or so. Thank you for taking the time to let me know!

Dazs

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Re: [0.95.1a-RC6] Hiver Swarm - V1.0 - 10/03/22
« Reply #199 on: October 03, 2022, 04:14:42 AM »

v1.0 released today - .99 save game compatible - Note: IF you have a captured Cleradie in your fleet it may need to be re-armed

Some BUG fixes and a spelling check, nothing as grand as a 1.0 release deserves I guess. Their fleets may be diminished a bit with the DP changes (fix) - Changelog on the Forum OP and in the RAR has the details

sevhern

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Re: [0.95.1a-RC6] Hiver Swarm - V1.0 - 10/03/22
« Reply #200 on: October 09, 2022, 05:59:28 AM »

BTW the eyes regrow. I used to harvest the Hiver systems for the eyes. But now I just keep a farm of Hiver ships.
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Dazs

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Re: [0.95.1a-RC6] Hiver Swarm - V1.0 - 10/03/22
« Reply #201 on: October 09, 2022, 12:35:09 PM »

This is odd, in the last update I re-classified them to be just an energy weapon. Maybe if you have leftover ships from before the update when they were a built-in weapon that may be the case. If so, well enjoy the free money :)

sevhern

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Re: [0.95.1a-RC6] Hiver Swarm - V1.0 - 10/03/22
« Reply #202 on: October 13, 2022, 09:49:14 PM »

Love the mode. Svreraxx Catapult is too low at 22 op (I think should be at least 30). It's one of the best weapons in the game.
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Dazs

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Re: [0.95.1a-RC6] Hiver Swarm - V1.0 - 10/03/22
« Reply #203 on: October 14, 2022, 05:03:17 AM »

Love the mode. Svreraxx Catapult is too low at 22 op (I think should be at least 30). It's one of the best weapons in the game.
So nice to hear and thank you for the comment. I did make their weapons OP so they could hold their own against the entire sector gunning for them but you have a good point about them being too powerful in the player's hands. I am releasing a JYD update today and then I am working on some promised CFT updates but I'll work on a Hiver patch and should have something out next week.

Island

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Re: [0.95.1a-RC6] Hiver Swarm - V1.0 - 10/03/22
« Reply #204 on: October 19, 2022, 03:22:53 PM »

Balance is wack as all hell. Ships are very strong (and surprisingly easily recoverable for how strong they are), but weapons are just stupidly broken. Like large energy weapon that's cheaper to mount than plasma cannon, longer range than plasma cannon, and more than 4 (!) times more flux efficient than plasma cannon at 0.3 flux per dmg. What?  :o And it's meant to be mid game boss faction? With weapons times stronger than end game Doritos tech??

And then these weapons are also like 10 times more expensive than vanilla guns, and can be found in random salvage all over the system without even meeting a bug fleet. Or purchased together with bug ships at any of countless bug-invaded planets in core systems.

You have to actively avoid using this easily accessible and crazily OP tech that has zero drawbacks, otherwise literally every other fight in game is a cakewalk. And if you fight bugs without using their tech - they are ridiculously hard to fight.

I'll compare it to Templars, for example. They are also way stronger than vanilla ships, and are meant to be sort of end game threat, but
1) they have counters that let you prepare to fight them specifically
2) their tech and ships are a lot harder to recover, and doesn't lie around abandoned mining stations
3) their tech is at least somewhat balanced against vanilla - ships cost a lot more DP to field, and weapons are extremely flux hungry, especially on vanilla ships.
Getting Templar gear is hard, it gives a huge advantage and feels strong, but it doesn't feel like typing "nuke" in console and autowinning every encounter.

I like the concept, but with this balance it's in such a weird place that it throws the rest of game's balance out of the window.
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Dazs

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Re: [0.95.1a-RC6] Hiver Swarm - V1.0 - 10/03/22
« Reply #205 on: October 19, 2022, 08:11:09 PM »

Hello there, thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts. I am currently working on an update for Hiver Swarm so your post is very timely.
Balance is wack as all hell. Ships are very strong (and surprisingly easily recoverable for how strong they are), but weapons are just stupidly broken.
As to their ship recovery, that has also been an ongoing struggle between the players that do not want them recoverable at all and the players who want trophies for their hard work. As a balance, I made them explode on death and their salvaged ships usually 3 to 4 d-mods making them wrecks. I have been thinking of making a separate download to flag them unrecoverable like Remnant ships for players that do not want them but I have held off since I figured if a player did not want them, they could just opt to scrap them. It will delay the patch but I can add a separate ships.csv download that would make them unrecoverable, assuming I understand your comment correctly. Some clarity on that point would be appreciated.
Like large energy weapon that's cheaper to mount than plasma cannon, longer range than plasma cannon, and more than 4 (!) times more flux efficient than plasma cannon at 0.3 flux per dmg. What?  :o
It is hard to judge them comparing their tech to vanilla or most mod faction tech. In earlier versions of the mod I had them toned down but they just got destroyed by an entire NPC sector going after them and the player had little chance to interact with them. I have steadily increased both their tech as well as their aggression over the course of the mod. Their weapons are OP on purpose so they can not only just hold their own but steadily take over the sector if left unchecked. As stated earlier regarding ship recovery, I felt that if a player did not want to use the recovered weapons, they can opt to sell them or toss them out the airlock. I am unsure if I can make a patch that makes them unrecoverable but I will look into it.
And it's meant to be mid game boss faction? With weapons times stronger than end game Doritos tech??
I call them a mid-game threat because a player can ignore them up to a point. Typically by mid-game players have a planet fully colonized, a strong fleet with capitals and some backup ships stored on their planet. At that stage when you can afford to loose a fleet, I felt the game was lacking in threats from mid to end game.

Doritos tech, nice I like that. :) Well the thing is by having the entire sector their enemies, that includes the Remnant. One of things I noted in earlier versions was that their fleets were being decimated by Remnant before they even got to the core. It still makes their colony fleets pretty much a moot point because the game forces a weak fleet for that purpose and they are easily sniped.
And then these weapons are also like 10 times more expensive than vanilla guns, and can be found in random salvage all over the system without even meeting a bug fleet. Or purchased together with bug ships at any of countless bug-invaded planets in core systems.
I made them so expensive as a trophy to sell for players who lost so much defeating one of the fleets as a way of compensation and reward. You are correct that when NPC fleets fight them, there is loose salvage flying all around to be picked up. I am unsure but if I make their ships unrecoverable, I believe that would eliminate or at least reduce the amount of after battle salvage floating round. I cannot say if that is the case though until I do some testing.
You have to actively avoid using this easily accessible and crazily OP tech that has zero drawbacks, otherwise literally every other fight in game is a cakewalk. And if you fight bugs without using their tech - they are ridiculously hard to fight.
In the patch I am working on I have decided to increase their fleet point strength and deployment costs in order to lower their ability to field overlarge fleet deployments. That should make fighting them more manageable and reduce their fleet sizes and thus the amount of recoverable tech.
I'll compare it to Templars, for example. They are also way stronger than vanilla ships, and are meant to be sort of end game threat, but
1) they have counters that let you prepare to fight them specifically
2) their tech and ships are a lot harder to recover, and doesn't lie around abandoned mining stations
3) their tech is at least somewhat balanced against vanilla - ships cost a lot more DP to field, and weapons are extremely flux hungry, especially on vanilla ships.
Getting Templar gear is hard, it gives a huge advantage and feels strong, but it doesn't feel like typing "nuke" in console and autowinning every encounter.
Oh how I miss The Knights Templar as a mod, fond memories. Dark Revenant is a much more skilled coder than I am and it has not been updated for years but I'll see if I can still d/l it and look over the code for clues.
I like the concept, but with this balance it's in such a weird place that it throws the rest of game's balance out of the window.
Well that is sort of the point of the mod. I would not recommend installing them with no other player made faction mods to help keep them in check, they will destroy vanilla factions. I will add that to the forum OP as a disclaimer.

You have given me much to think about but I am a bit sleepy atm and heading off to bed so I apologize if I have not properly addressed your comments. I will do some research in the coming days and see how I can best address your concerns while keeping them a viable threat that the entire sector is gunning for. Any clarity or further opinions based on my replies would be appreciated. Thank you for taking the time and making the effort to share your opinions.

e

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Re: [0.95.1a-RC6] Hiver Swarm - V1.0 - 10/03/22
« Reply #206 on: October 19, 2022, 08:25:23 PM »

Oh how I miss The Knights Templar as a mod, fond memories. Dark Revenant is a much more skilled coder than I am and it has not been updated for years but I'll see if I can still d/l it and look over the code for clues.

You could also take a look at the Legio Infernalis as the faction also follows a similar philosophy (Late game threat, somewhat op, needs player intervention to stop them, etc.) or even ask them for advice. (if they're willing)
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Asmodium

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Re: [0.95.1a-RC6] Hiver Swarm - V1.0 - 10/03/22
« Reply #207 on: October 19, 2022, 11:01:27 PM »

I have a idea for the swarm what if they don't start their Invasion till after a mission to one of their systems is completed then boom they begin the invasions, I have no idea if it's possible but thought I put it out there for people who wished they would wait a bit
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Dazs

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Re: [0.95.1a-RC6] Hiver Swarm - V1.0 - 10/03/22
« Reply #208 on: October 20, 2022, 05:06:36 AM »

You could also take a look at the Legio Infernalis as the faction also follows a similar philosophy (Late game threat, somewhat op, needs player intervention to stop them, etc.) or even ask them for advice. (if they're willing)
I do have Tahlan Shipworks as an enabled mod, the Bento is one of my favorite ships and am always happy to get one from pirate fleets early game. I'll look into how Nia Tahl (also a coder way more experienced than I) has Legio set up as well, thank you for the recommendation.
I have a idea for the swarm what if they don't start their Invasion till after a mission to one of their systems is completed then boom they begin the invasions, I have no idea if it's possible but thought I put it out there for people who wished they would wait a bit
I did tinker with that idea earlier on but I could not get it to work as intended. It has to do with how Nex handles factions that can invade, they need to be set up at the start so they can be added to the pool of colonization/invasion factions. I did reach out to Histidine back in June for advice on that and they were very helpful and I was able to increase their aggression but essentially it came down to writing my own invasion code to delay it and um I am just an old guy with the most basic understanding of Java. I am learning more as I go and it is an interesting pursuit but that amount of code was beyond me when I attempted it. I would love to add story content and it is a goal but a long term one I am sorry to say.

I have to say it was so nice to wake up with two additional players offering advice. I am always so pleased with the community and how interactive and helpful they can be. Thank you both for your suggestions, more fuel for the furnace :)

Island

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Re: [0.95.1a-RC6] Hiver Swarm - V1.0 - 10/03/22
« Reply #209 on: October 20, 2022, 01:39:32 PM »

Hey. No worries, I was just throwing my impressions here, I understand that balancing boss faction is tough.

As to their ship recovery, that has also been an ongoing struggle between the players that do not want them recoverable at all and the players who want trophies for their hard work.
No I agree with people who think ships should be recoverable, just at much lower rate. Because so far I can get quite a few after every fight, which is not much lower than with vanilla ships.

It is hard to judge them comparing their tech to vanilla or most mod faction tech. In earlier versions of the mod I had them toned down but they just got destroyed by an entire NPC sector going after them and the player had little chance to interact with them.
I thought campaign layer encounters between NPC fleets is solved based on fleet points, not on actual weapon stats? I imagined just making them higher FP would solve the campaign layer problems without upsetting battle layer balance? No actual experience here though. Making them cost more deployment points cost sounds good though.

I made them so expensive as a trophy to sell for players who lost so much defeating one of the fleets as a way of compensation and reward.
Makes sense in battle salvage, but right now I find a bunch in just random salvage everywhere, mining stations, ruins and such. Maybe removing bug stuff from normal loot spawns would fix this. It should be a trophy from a tough fight, not just random find.

Oh how I miss The Knights Templar as a mod, fond memories. Dark Revenant is a much more skilled coder than I am and it has not been updated for years but I'll see if I can still d/l it and look over the code for clues.
There was an update for previous (.91?) version, I think it was just not posted in mod index.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to check out the update.
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