Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.95.1a is out! (12/10/21); Blog post: The Pilgrim's Path (07/19/22)

Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11

Author Topic: [0.95.1a] Hiver Swarm - V0.97 - 07/13/22  (Read 67393 times)

danando123

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile

I see a reaper ship, i see download
Logged

Dazs

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 413
    • View Profile

I see a reaper ship, i see download

Heh nice! - Credit to Xenoargh for donating the initial sprite. I just re-colored and added the landing lights on that one but still nice to hear someone likes the old sprites :)

Dazs

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 413
    • View Profile

v0.96 released today -Save compatible with V 0.95 - Changelog in the RAR and on the Forum OP has the details but in short, Histidine was kind enough to give me some guidance to better integrate Hiver Swarm with Nex. They will now be picked in the lottery for colony fleets and are far more aggressive in their conquest of the sector. If you currently have them set to be playable, revisit the instructions on the forum OP as the method has changed due to the code changes - I recommend a new game start to take advantage of all changes. 

See below for my experiences playing against them if you are interested
Spoiler
I loaded a save from an established game and noticed the increase but it was really noticeable when I started a new game. I play with pretty much every mod faction enabled to ensure compatibility with my mods and within a short time they were sending multiple fleets to various faction systems. I eventually defeated them but I had to wait till JYD (the faction I was playing as) sent an invasion against them and joined them for cover. Tactics may vary on skill level, I am not that great a player :)
[close]
I updated the forum OP with direct links and cleaned it up a little. There is now a "Buy me a coffee" link to Ko-Fi. I offer all my mods for free and the code is open source but it was a player requested feature so use it or not, I do not expect anything for my work. Enjoy!

derrzzedd

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 2
    • View Profile

Having played around with the mod for... around six hours or so, i've noted some things:
firstly, both the ships and weapons the swarm has are hillariously strong and many are overpowered.
Highly accurate, extremely flux efficient, highly damaging projectile weaponry, backed up with infinite ammo sabot-esque swarmer kinetic missile launchers, equipped on ships that are both durable and often using very strong abilities (like the temporal field ability) for an OP cost often comparable to weaponry much weaker than the swarm's equipment does not necessarily make for a balanced faction.

which, you know, if you want them to be a lategame esque enemy faction that's fully understandable.
however, the addition of having them launch full invasion fleets into the core kind of puts that concept into a tailspin, as this results in the player encountering the bugs very often, and very early - especially given the efficacy of their invasion fleets, of which there are extremely many, and they very often succeed.
i've played just past one ingame cycle, and have reached the grand level of 5 - and so far there's been 2 successful invasions(cibola and Salamanca), one failed(sindria), there's 2 more on the way (gilead and ancyra) along with a saturation bombardment headed for Madeira, alongside numerous raids.
out of all of these, there was not a single one ranked below 'superior' in terms of swarm vs defender strength, and sindria only won on the ground.
this intense aggression leads to the player encountering the swarm very often - and unless the player gets both very lucky and plays incredibly well, they will not be able to stop them before they make massive inroads into the core sector systems.
while i do absolutely love the concept of this mod, it feels a bit too imbalanced - and if one wants to keep the power imbalance, maybe instead of superior ships and firepower, they'd simply have much more ships than the opposing force? a change such as that would both make sense given the swarm moniker and style, as well - to draw from history, making them the shermans to the player's tiger tanks would feel very fitting ("a German Tiger is easily worth 10 shermans, but they always had 11!").

the sprites also look a bit... fuzzy, compared to other ships and equipment in the game - but only some of them. iunno if that's just my install.

in short:
really cool idea, but the bugs are pretty overpowered and would probably need some work on that. sick mod though, definitively one to keep an eye on.
Logged

Dazs

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 413
    • View Profile

First off, hello there and thank you for your informative reply.
Having played around with the mod for... around six hours or so, i've noted some things:
firstly, both the ships and weapons the swarm has are hillariously strong and many are overpowered.
Highly accurate, extremely flux efficient, highly damaging projectile weaponry, backed up with infinite ammo sabot-esque swarmer kinetic missile launchers, equipped on ships that are both durable and often using very strong abilities (like the temporal field ability) for an OP cost often comparable to weaponry much weaker than the swarm's equipment does not necessarily make for a balanced faction.
Well the balance of their ships has been an ongoing tug of war some complaining they were too easy and others that they were too hard. The vision for them is to be a nuisance at first but as the game progresses they become a threat and if left alone for too long a major takeover in the sector. To archive that while also being the enemy of every faction, they needed to be OP to handle the multiple invasions against them. The more modded factions you have in your game, the harder it is for them.
which, you know, if you want them to be a lategame esque enemy faction that's fully understandable.
however, the addition of having them launch full invasion fleets into the core kind of puts that concept into a tailspin, as this results in the player encountering the bugs very often, and very early - especially given the efficacy of their invasion fleets, of which there are extremely many, and they very often succeed.
i've played just past one ingame cycle, and have reached the grand level of 5 - and so far there's been 2 successful invasions(cibola and Salamanca), one failed(sindria), there's 2 more on the way (gilead and ancyra) along with a saturation bombardment headed for Madeira, alongside numerous raids.
out of all of these, there was not a single one ranked below 'superior' in terms of swarm vs defender strength, and sindria only won on the ground.
this intense aggression leads to the player encountering the swarm very often - and unless the player gets both very lucky and plays incredibly well, they will not be able to stop them before they make massive inroads into the core sector systems.
while i do absolutely love the concept of this mod, it feels a bit too imbalanced - and if one wants to keep the power imbalance, maybe instead of superior ships and firepower, they'd simply have much more ships than the opposing force? a change such as that would both make sense given the swarm moniker and style, as well - to draw from history, making them the shermans to the player's tiger tanks would feel very fitting ("a German Tiger is easily worth 10 shermans, but they always had 11!").
Well that does seem to be a bit too strong, may I ask how many other factions mods do you use in your game? Personally I play with pretty much every faction mod for compatibility testing and it takes them some time to become a threat. I haven't tried a game with no faction mods so maybe there is an issue with them being too op for a vanilla faction run.

In past patches I added a third system across the map to sort of force them to travel the sector. And in the last patch I was able to turn their aggression up via fixes in their Nex files. Perhaps having both fixes tunes them a bit too much. I'll play around with a game where they only have the top left systems and see how it goes.
the sprites also look a bit... fuzzy, compared to other ships and equipment in the game - but only some of them. iunno if that's just my install.

in short:
really cool idea, but the bugs are pretty overpowered and would probably need some work on that. sick mod though, definitively one to keep an eye on.
Have you looked at the alternate ship pack I have imbedded in the RAR? It contains non-bug designs that are cleaner but still have an alien feel to them. I am no artist and have done a couple passes at cleaning them up, if you could list the ones you feel need some work I would appreciate it so I can see what I can do.

Harmful Mechanic

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1276
  • Secret Beef Cultist
    • View Profile

I think a major part of the problem is how many ships you have to balance. Vanilla Remnants are remarkably compelling for how few hulls they have. More isn't always better.

You may want to try reducing things down to a total of ten entries in ship_data.csv, including fighter hulls, and see if that makes it easier - just balance those ten things, and then you can start thinking about adding back some of the other stuff.
Logged
People need societies, but they don't necessarily need nations.

Dazs

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 413
    • View Profile

Hello there Harmful Mechanic, big fan of your work and I appreciate your taking the time to comment. Well I am self admittedly guilty of ship bloat on all my mods, idk I really enjoy designing them and I want the factions I create to stand on their own. However, I am unsure which ones I would remove in Hiver Swarm and still maintain a complete setup since they are a unique mod in that they do not trade with other factions or use their ships. I added each type and size of ship I thought they would need in order to colonize, trade, invade, fight and to be able to defend against multiple factions invading them.

I had some plans to work on CFT after the holiday but I'll give all the ships in Hiver Swarm a once over after, hopefully, I receive some clarity from derrzzedd or anyone else that would like to give some advice for that matter. Either way, it made it to the top of my to-do list for mod work.

derrzzedd

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 2
    • View Profile

Well that does seem to be a bit too strong, may I ask how many other factions mods do you use in your game? Personally I play with pretty much every faction mod for compatibility testing and it takes them some time to become a threat. I haven't tried a game with no faction mods so maybe there is an issue with them being too op for a vanilla faction run.

In past patches I added a third system across the map to sort of force them to travel the sector. And in the last patch I was able to turn their aggression up via fixes in their Nex files. Perhaps having both fixes tunes them a bit too much. I'll play around with a game where they only have the top left systems and see how it goes.
so far i've been running the mod alongside dassault-mikoyan, Diable avionics, Interstellar imperium, and Kadur Remnant.
i'm of course rather unfamiliar with creating a mod for starsector, so i'm not entirely sure how causing hostility and how the 'behind the scenes' portion of invasion logic works, but would it perhaps be an idea to start their worlds off as small in terms of population and logistical capabilities but well defended (to prevent other hostile AIs or the player themselves from just wiping them out) and have a rapid growth modifier of some sort on them, to make their capacity for launching invasion fleets scale up over time?

Have you looked at the alternate ship pack I have imbedded in the RAR? It contains non-bug designs that are cleaner but still have an alien feel to them. I am no artist and have done a couple passes at cleaning them up, if you could list the ones you feel need some work I would appreciate it so I can see what I can do.
i have not, but i'll be sure to. it's not like it's a big issue or anything - they're already sufficiently horrifying to think about :).

as for the balancing aspect on a ship scale - less ships would certainly make it easier on you as a modmaker to get a comprehensive balancing done with less work, but i do not think that the variety of ships is an inherently bad thing, since they do make for more interesting fights. what i'd focus on during a balancing run are:
Flux/damage ratios of weapons systems
damage output capacity of missile systems with infinite/replenishing ammunition
speed vs tankyness vs equipment capacity of the ships themselves

since these areas are, at least to me, the biggest factors in the balance of a combatant.
again, i'm not a modmaker so i've little idea how hard or easy it would be, but the option to make each ship and piece of gear weaker but have a lot more of them in each fleet would also be an idea. they are a swarm, after all.

still, it's a very fun mod to play, and the concept is fantastic and horrifying in equal measure.

Edit: to clarify a bit what i meant with the "speed vs tank vs equipment capacity" point, i figured i'd slap some of the vanilla cruisers into a diagram to show a bit how i'm thinking - picture related. (bear with me, i'ven ot used a standard forum board structure in a while.)
« Last Edit: July 03, 2022, 07:26:58 PM by derrzzedd »
Logged

Dazs

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 413
    • View Profile

Thank you for the clarification, I was away for the holiday so sorry for the delay in replying.
so far i've been running the mod alongside dassault-mikoyan, Diable avionics, Interstellar imperium, and Kadur Remnant.
i'm of course rather unfamiliar with creating a mod for starsector, so i'm not entirely sure how causing hostility and how the 'behind the scenes' portion of invasion logic works,
All great faction mods, I use them myself. Well NEX does use some logic when deciding invasions, generally the more hated then the more likely it will be invaded. Based on the faction mods you have listed it does not look like you have one that is on the left side of the map like Xhan Empire. The Hivers tend to go after systems closer to their section of the map first. For example, Luddic Church is one of the first targets since the Luds HATE tech and Hivers are high tech and they are one of the closer factions.
but would it perhaps be an idea to start their worlds off as small in terms of population and logistical capabilities but well defended (to prevent other hostile AIs or the player themselves from just wiping them out) and have a rapid growth modifier of some sort on them, to make their capacity for launching invasion fleets scale up over time?
That is probably one the the things I have struggled with the most in the patching since release. If I make them too weak in terms of numerical advantage, then they are wiped out by AI factions. If I make them too weak in terms of ship superiority then their fleets are usually intercepted by AI remnant fleets and destroyed before they can reach the core sectors.
i have not, but i'll be sure to. it's not like it's a big issue or anything - they're already sufficiently horrifying to think about :).
Lol nice that is the intention. :)  If you can stomach it, take a peek under the spoiler image on the first page that shows the changed ships vs their base ships and maybe the replacements are more to your liking. If you navigate to the Hiver Swarm mod folder under graphics\ships you can see all the base ships and the file name is their ship name. If you could give me an idea which specific ships you find blurry I would truly appreciate it, be brave little piglet!
as for the balancing aspect on a ship scale - less ships would certainly make it easier on you as a modmaker to get a comprehensive balancing done with less work, but i do not think that the variety of ships is an inherently bad thing, since they do make for more interesting fights. what i'd focus on during a balancing run are:
Flux/damage ratios of weapons systems
I have received some comments in the part regarding their flux efficiency so that was already on the to-do list but thank you just the same.
damage output capacity of missile systems with infinite/replenishing ammunition
Full disclosure, that was a mistake on my part when I initially set up their weapons that I never addressed. No specific reason for it, idk that was months ago :) I'll have it fixed/changed next patch.
speed vs tankyness vs equipment capacity of the ships themselves
since these areas are, at least to me, the biggest factors in the balance of a combatant.
again, i'm not a modmaker so i've little idea how hard or easy it would be, but the option to make each ship and piece of gear weaker but have a lot more of them in each fleet would also be an idea. they are a swarm, after all.
Well I do have them tanky and high speed in order to take advantage of their hull repairing ability to pair with their hit and run tactics. So they can move in, take a hit and weave out to repair. However I do see a case to make their larger ships slower and their smaller ones less tanky as a balance tweak.
still, it's a very fun mod to play, and the concept is fantastic and horrifying in equal measure.
Thank you so much! I am glad you think so, my goal was to provide the player base an organized faction to go up against versus random bounties and remnant fleets. I generally play as a neutralist and I wanted a no questions asked big bad and it doesn't get more than that with the Hivers.
Edit: to clarify a bit what i meant with the "speed vs tank vs equipment capacity" point, i figured i'd slap some of the vanilla cruisers into a diagram to show a bit how i'm thinking - picture related. (bear with me, i'ven ot used a standard forum board structure in a while.)
I get it now, thank you for taking the time to make and embed a graphic. The level of effort players such as yourself put into assisting me make my mods more enjoyable just floors me. I am so appreciative thank you.

Dazs

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 413
    • View Profile
Re: [0.95.1a] Hiver Swarm - V0.97 - 07/13/22
« Reply #145 on: July 13, 2022, 01:32:16 PM »

v0.97 released today - Save game compatible. Couple fixes, couple nerfs, changelog on the forum OP and in the RAR has the details.

Dafrandle

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Re: [0.95.1a] Hiver Swarm - V0.97 - 07/13/22
« Reply #146 on: July 13, 2022, 07:23:19 PM »

out of curiosity - how much flexibility does the game allow in the way a faction function?

If you could hide the faction from the player and the rest of the factions and force them to search for them - or better yet - have the player accidently stumble on their core worlds as they are out exploring, it would make them scarier.

I'd guess that Nexerelin probably doesn't allow for something like that though
Logged

5ColouredWalker

  • Lieutenant
  • **
  • Posts: 85
    • View Profile
Re: [0.95.1a] Hiver Swarm - V0.97 - 07/13/22
« Reply #147 on: July 13, 2022, 10:05:10 PM »

out of curiosity - how much flexibility does the game allow in the way a faction function?

If you could hide the faction from the player and the rest of the factions and force them to search for them - or better yet - have the player accidently stumble on their core worlds as they are out exploring, it would make them scarier.

I'd guess that Nexerelin probably doesn't allow for something like that though

There is a mod that hides non-core worlds (except Nebula, where it doesn't work.), so this might be doable. However I'm not sure how this could be done for factions.
Logged

Dazs

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 413
    • View Profile
Re: [0.95.1a] Hiver Swarm - V0.97 - 07/13/22
« Reply #148 on: July 14, 2022, 02:32:04 AM »

out of curiosity - how much flexibility does the game allow in the way a faction function?

If you could hide the faction from the player and the rest of the factions and force them to search for them - or better yet - have the player accidently stumble on their core worlds as they are out exploring, it would make them scarier.

I'd guess that Nexerelin probably doesn't allow for something like that though

I tinkered with the idea of having them hidden like Blade Breakers or the Agni but I wanted them to be a threat to all the factions in the sector. By having their systems visible on the map it gives them a fully functional economy and the AI is more likely to go after them. They are essentially set up as a newly discovered, little known faction that hates everyone, it is why I have their info turned off on the intel tab.

If you do not already have Prav's Agni (prv Starwork) and/or Harmful Mechanic's Blade Breakers (Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering) I would highly recommend them to fill in that "what the heck did I walk into, oh crap RUN!" feeling.

5ColouredWalker

  • Lieutenant
  • **
  • Posts: 85
    • View Profile
Re: [0.95.1a] Hiver Swarm - V0.97 - 07/13/22
« Reply #149 on: July 15, 2022, 02:32:40 AM »

*Kills Legio Fleet*
Hiver's who hate everyone: Here's 1.5K in bounty payment.
Me: Uh... Thanks.

Edit: Are hiver ship blue prints supposed to be discoverable?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2022, 02:44:58 AM by 5ColouredWalker »
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11