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Author Topic: [0.96a] Forge Production v1.1.3  (Read 132117 times)

Donahue

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Re: [0.95.1a] Forge Production v1.0.5
« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2022, 07:06:17 AM »

Could you allow the "forge_enable_cargo_requirement": false option to apply on modular ships like the Newfoundland-class from ED-shipyards? The option applies only to the main ship itself and not any of its cargo wagon section, which are of "type": "STATION_MODULE". Finally, the mod doesn't recognize forge modules installed in the modular section so I can't toggle the Forge production button.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2022, 08:24:32 AM by Donahue »
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Ontheheavens

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Re: [0.95.1a] Forge Production v1.0.5
« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2022, 09:18:30 AM »

Could you allow the "forge_enable_cargo_requirement": false option to apply on modular ships like the Newfoundland-class from ED-shipyards? The option applies only to the main ship itself and not any of its cargo wagon section, which are of "type": "STATION_MODULE". Finally, the mod doesn't recognize forge modules installed in the modular section so I can't toggle the Forge production button.

I originally coded the mod so that the hullmods cannot apply to ship modules; it turns out this code was not working correctly even with 2 redundant checks (so thank you for bringing this up). This is because vanilla modular station code is exceedingly wonky when it comes to the checks to fleetMembers, and it doesn't return what it supposed to return when calling, for example, getParentStation(). There is a reason why in the original Nijigen Extend creature disabled possiblity of installing forge hullmods on modules - it introduces all sorts of unintended behaviours. See this comment by Sundog and reply of Alex, for example:

https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=4900.msg342854#msg342854

Would it be possible to change the behavior of ShipAPI.getFleetMember() and MutableShipStatsAPI.getFleetMember() to more reliably return real fleet members instead of dummy fleet members?
Currently, the "stats" and "ship" arguments passed to the various BaseHullMod methods will return dummy fleet members if the hullmod is attached to a module, instead of returning the actual fleet member the module is attached to. Furthermore, modules in this context will present as if they're not modules for other reasons, returning false with isStationModule and null with getParentStation. This makes it very difficult to determine what fleet member the module is attached to.
I realize this might not be feasible if vanilla code relies on the existing behavior of getFleetMember, but I figured I might as well ask. Thanks for considering!
Ahh, this is... let's call it "code that's potentially very sensitive/error prone" and I don't want to touch it unless I absolutely have to. My apologies!

In other words, vanilla modular station code was not initially developed for modular fleetMembers.

Concerning ability button: all the checks for production logic assume normal fleetmembers, theoretically hullmods installed on modules shouldn't even count towards production. They are installable in the current version because of insufficient testing on my part - just rewritten the checking method to try 5 different checks, should exclude any possibility of hullmods on modules, assuming other modders properly write their ship_data.csv files.

I realize this isn't the answer you were looking for; apologies for that. It's just that trying to solve all the issues that arise when trying to properly account for forge hullmods on modules would be quite a daunting task. Don't really think it worth the effort in terms of coding.
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Donahue

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Re: [0.95.1a] Forge Production v1.0.5
« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2022, 09:46:31 AM »

I realize this isn't the answer you were looking for; apologies for that. It's just that trying to solve all the issues that arise when trying to properly account for forge hullmods on modules would be quite a daunting task. Don't really think it worth the effort in terms of coding.

I see.  I understand the technical issues...Could you then allow the installation of additional forge modules for ships with modular sections? Say for each modular section, you would allow one more forge module to be installed.  Imagine those forge modules as existing within each of those modular section of the large ship. This would side-step the technical difficulties and still allow for in-universe explanation of the additional capabilities.

I very much would like a dedicated forge ship instead of 3-4 ships...This is the reason I went for the Newfoundland-class.  It saves on an even more precious resource which is the limited ship slot of 30 ships.  If the game had allowed for more ship slots, I would be less bothered.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2022, 09:52:48 AM by Donahue »
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Ontheheavens

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Re: [0.95.1a] Forge Production v1.0.5
« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2022, 08:49:24 PM »

I see.  I understand the technical issues...Could you then allow the installation of additional forge modules for ships with modular sections? Say for each modular section, you would allow one more forge module to be installed.  Imagine those forge modules as existing within each of those modular section of the large ship. This would side-step the technical difficulties and still allow for in-universe explanation of the additional capabilities.

I'm sorry, but seems like I'll have to disappoint you again - accounting for modular ships is not among my design goals, because:
  • Modders can implement all sorts of strange module sections and just a generic check for module count could lead to some angular armor block being counted for forge slot.
  • This mod is coded with an assumption that each ship has one module, and having duplicate hullmods of the same spec is impossible even by vanilla code.
  • I don't play with modular ships myself much, therefore don't want to spend effort on implementing something I won't be enjoying myself.

I very much would like a dedicated forge ship instead of 3-4 ships...This is the reason I went for the Newfoundland-class.  It saves on an even more precious resource which is the limited ship slot of 30 ships.  If the game had allowed for more ship slots, I would be less bothered.

There is a Fleet Size by DP mod by Chozo. I don't play with it myself, but think it could solve the problem at least in part.
https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=22191.45

You could tweak the settings file for various numbers so that your forge ships produce more, but I imagine you already did that. And, of course, you could always take the source code and make whatever adjustments to the logic you please, then just change the .jar.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2022, 08:52:24 PM by Ontheheavens »
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Donahue

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Re: [0.95.1a] Forge Production v1.0.5
« Reply #49 on: December 02, 2022, 02:18:56 AM »

Thanks for your replies. I'll see what I can do myself then with code modifications.  Regarding additional modules for additional modular sections, I think you mis-understand me.  I didn't mean duplicate forge modules, e.g. 3 smelters with 3 modular sections, but only one of each kind. Fleet size by DP is a mod that I haven't touch (have it downloaded but not used).  I had wanted to stick with the 30 ships rule as that made picking which ship being in the fleet much more fun.
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mark.sucka

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Re: [0.95.1a] Forge Production v1.0.5
« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2022, 02:44:01 AM »

Nice mod.

Not sure if the ability to disable individual ship's forging by toggling repair & recover CR for the ship was a new feature in the latest release, but it was very appreciated.  I keep 4 atlas, one with each of the types of forges, and never really use the fuel refinery as I usually have more fuel than I need wherever I go...but it's always smart to have a backup plan in case you get stuck in deep hyperspace and need to mine a few asteroids for some emergency fuel.  The ability to selectively toggle when it's just business as usual turning ores into metals and metals into machines, and when it's emergency time to dip into those volatiles stockpiles for fuel so the fleet can make it back to the core worlds, is a really handy feature.

On the note of balance, I'm sure other people have their opinions, but I'm a bit confused on the default choice of input -> output ratios (though it's easy enough to change).  Adding a forge to a ship is expensive; OP cost, additional crew requirements, lost cargo space, extra ship maintenance.  Running a forge is expensive; lost CR (which can total a full 1 supply per day for an atlas), broken machinery, and the indirect cost of basically doubling fleet expenses by moving at half normal speed (though I only really use forging when in deep hyperspace through large patches of muck when I'd otherwise choose to move slow to avoid damage).  I don't understand the point of making the forge additionally expensive by giving unprofitable production ratios for most processes.  Metals are easy enough to come by through battle loot, and I'd normally have to sell them to black markets for $12-15 (despite a base value of $30), but transplutonics are either rarely found in caches or derelicts or else I have to buy them from markets in small amounts for their $200 base value or $160 if I find a bargain (or I smash ludd path buoys ;D ) .

Take machinery assembly on an Atlas as an example:
I take 72 metals I'd otherwise sell for $12 each ($864), add 6 transplutonics I bought at market or found and could have sold to market for $200 each ($1200), burn 1 supply to recover CR costing $100, and the result is 12 machinery, less the 1.44 machinery that will probably break down during the cycle, for a net gain of 10.66 machinery, a total worth about $1600 on the market.  $2064 worth of inputs for $1600 worth of outputs.  Get $0.77 on the $1.
Now add-in all the indirect costs: extra crew salaries & supply maintenance increase for the forge hullmod (which combined cost an atlas an extra $800/month), the cost of the lost cargo-hauling efficiency (5 atlases with forges only provide the cargo capacity of 4 atlases without forges, so basically a forged-atlas costs 25% more to run, an atlas costs about $4000/month to operate, so add an extra $1000).  That adds an extra $60/day operating cost whether or not you're running the forge.  Running the forge only 1/3 of the time?  Get $0.71 on the $1.
Plus the intangible cost of the increased sensor profile, slow moving, inability to use other abilities, having to keep an extra 96 machinery on hand plus extras for expected breakdowns, having to keep a stockpile of transplutonics on hand to covert metals into valuable items, etc.
I get there is value in compressing loot, but in some ways it isn't compressing loot.  I've taken my atlas which could have carried 2000 cargo of loot, removed 400 for the forge, taken up another 100 for extra machinery needed to run the forge, plus maybe another 100 for a small stockpile of transplutonics to be ready to use to run the forge whenever I get a huge loot drop of metals, plus haul an extra 50 or so supplies to account for the extra CR loss and extra maintenance over a 2-3 month voyage, leaving me 1350 space of my original 2000.  Is my forge going to regularly compress enough metal into machinery or supplies to make up for losing 1/3 of my original cargo space?  Is it worth all that added expense, in total earning maybe $0.50 on the $1 to run the forge and turn large piles of metal loot into more valuable loot, versus just taking the supplies and other high-value loot and chucking the low-value metals and ores out the spacelock?
The ore refinery sure, it can be quite profitable as you travel around the inner systems to snag large discount stockpiles of $2 iron ores and $60 transplutonic ores from planets, refine it, and sell it off for $12 / $200, you can easily profit $40k a month per atlas even if you only run your refinery 1/3 of the time as you hyperspace between systems.  But all the other forges are substantially unprofitable with all costs considered, and most of their value is in providing an off-market source of the supplies and machinery inputs needed to run the ore refinery, or providing an emergency fuel source.

You've provided very straightforward coding to be able to simply adjust the production ratios, and my fix was just to remove transplutonics from the formulas and increase the metal input amounts to keep the $in->$out balance the same so that the forge is just entirely compressing low-value loot into higher value loot.  So yes, I take a money loss in operating the forges, but the value of the forge to me is in compressing thousands of units of junk metal loot gained from outer system exploration into just hundreds of units of higher-value supplies/machinery I can resell when I get back to core worlds, thus allowing me to visit a system on mission, acquire 1000+ metal loot, refine it into 200 machinery or supplies as I travel to the next mission, freeing up my holds for the next system's loot, and repeat for the 3-4 more stops before returning back to civilization.  Plus having an emergency source of supply or fuel generation if I miscalculate my needs or I come back to a core world that demands 3x normal prices.  Plus, as my fleet gets huge, having a source of being able to whip up supplies & fuel for when the markets of the core system I've visited just quite literally don't have enough fuel/supplies to sell me for all my needs as I head out on a 1-3 month voyage.

If I could make a suggestion for future improvements to the mod, I'd add a few more forges:
  • Heavy Armaments - Most factions don't sell these on open markets, or if they do it's just small amounts, so having a means to make your own and in larger volumes could be valuable for Nexerilin military operations.  Could be made from metals & transplutonics, or metal & heavy machinery, etc.
  • Transplutonics - made from regular metals, i.e. 10 metals turns into 1 transplutonic.  Would help create a closed-economy in the forges; if you balance your fleet's forges properly you can run a mining fleet with a continual pipeline of mined iron ore -> metal -> transplutonics -> machinery for running said forges + supplies for the whole fleet + extra stuff to sell off.
  • Volatiles - basically a reverse fuel centrifuge.  Looting more fuel than your tankers can hold?  Stabilize it into volatiles that you can store in your cargo haulers for those rainy days when a friendly scavenger dumb pirate armada doesn't attack you to give you the fuel you need to get home, forcing you to turn on the fuel centrifuge.

All in all, great mod.  Thank you for your hard work.
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Ontheheavens

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Re: [0.95.1a] Forge Production v1.0.5
« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2022, 03:34:09 AM »

Not sure if the ability to disable individual ship's forging by toggling repair & recover CR for the ship was a new feature in the latest release, but it was very appreciated.  I keep 4 atlas, one with each of the types of forges, and never really use the fuel refinery as I usually have more fuel than I need wherever I go...but it's always smart to have a backup plan in case you get stuck in deep hyperspace and need to mine a few asteroids for some emergency fuel.  The ability to selectively toggle when it's just business as usual turning ores into metals and metals into machines, and when it's emergency time to dip into those volatiles stockpiles for fuel so the fleet can make it back to the core worlds, is a really handy feature.

It was there from the first release! :) Seems like this info being hidden in the ability tooltip was an issue, so I added the tip to the modpage.

On the note of balance, I'm sure other people have their opinions, but I'm a bit confused on the default choice of input -> output ratios (though it's easy enough to change).  Adding a forge to a ship is expensive; OP cost, additional crew requirements, lost cargo space, extra ship maintenance.  Running a forge is expensive; lost CR (which can total a full 1 supply per day for an atlas), broken machinery, and the indirect cost of basically doubling fleet expenses by moving at half normal speed (though I only really use forging when in deep hyperspace through large patches of muck when I'd otherwise choose to move slow to avoid damage).  I don't understand the point of making the forge additionally expensive by giving unprofitable production ratios for most processes.  Metals are easy enough to come by through battle loot, and I'd normally have to sell them to black markets for $12-15 (despite a base value of $30), but transplutonics are either rarely found in caches or derelicts or else I have to buy them from markets in small amounts for their $200 base value or $160 if I find a bargain (or I smash ludd path buoys ;D ) .

Your account of expensiveness of forge production is very reasonable; yes, the default ratios are as expensive as I reasonably could make them without the whole deal being rendered pointless. Thing is, I place a great deal of importance in content being as vanilla-feeling as possible; and by vanilla lore the very ability of making goods in space isn't something feasible given Post-Collapse tech. Making ratios more generous not only would render core trading interactions completely pointless (and my goal isn't to substitute them, but to add another possibility), it would also remove any remnant of lore-friendliness if there even was one in the first place.

In other words, I'm looking at this not necessarily from the point of gameplay, but from the point of immersive design. I want my content to blend in and make sense. Of course this mod already fails at the stated goal utterly; I'm considering doing a wholesale rework that would bring it closer to vanilla.

Take machinery assembly on an Atlas as an example:
I take 72 metals I'd otherwise sell for $12 each ($864), add 6 transplutonics I bought at market or found and could have sold to market for $200 each ($1200), burn 1 supply to recover CR costing $100, and the result is 12 machinery, less the 1.44 machinery that will probably break down during the cycle, for a net gain of 10.66 machinery, a total worth about $1600 on the market.  $2064 worth of inputs for $1600 worth of outputs.  Get $0.77 on the $1.
Now add-in all the indirect costs: extra crew salaries & supply maintenance increase for the forge hullmod (which combined cost an atlas an extra $800/month), the cost of the lost cargo-hauling efficiency (5 atlases with forges only provide the cargo capacity of 4 atlases without forges, so basically a forged-atlas costs 25% more to run, an atlas costs about $4000/month to operate, so add an extra $1000).  That adds an extra $60/day operating cost whether or not you're running the forge.  Running the forge only 1/3 of the time?  Get $0.71 on the $1.
Plus the intangible cost of the increased sensor profile, slow moving, inability to use other abilities, having to keep an extra 96 machinery on hand plus extras for expected breakdowns, having to keep a stockpile of transplutonics on hand to covert metals into valuable items, etc.
I get there is value in compressing loot, but in some ways it isn't compressing loot.  I've taken my atlas which could have carried 2000 cargo of loot, removed 400 for the forge, taken up another 100 for extra machinery needed to run the forge, plus maybe another 100 for a small stockpile of transplutonics to be ready to use to run the forge whenever I get a huge loot drop of metals, plus haul an extra 50 or so supplies to account for the extra CR loss and extra maintenance over a 2-3 month voyage, leaving me 1350 space of my original 2000.  Is my forge going to regularly compress enough metal into machinery or supplies to make up for losing 1/3 of my original cargo space?  Is it worth all that added expense, in total earning maybe $0.50 on the $1 to run the forge and turn large piles of metal loot into more valuable loot, versus just taking the supplies and other high-value loot and chucking the low-value metals and ores out the spacelock?
The ore refinery sure, it can be quite profitable as you travel around the inner systems to snag large discount stockpiles of $2 iron ores and $60 transplutonic ores from planets, refine it, and sell it off for $12 / $200, you can easily profit $40k a month per atlas even if you only run your refinery 1/3 of the time as you hyperspace between systems.  But all the other forges are substantially unprofitable with all costs considered, and most of their value is in providing an off-market source of the supplies and machinery inputs needed to run the ore refinery, or providing an emergency fuel source.

Big thanks for laying the situation out in such a detail, this is very thought-provoking to read! I'm sorry, but the kind of impression that you got was more or less the goal for me. :)

You've provided very straightforward coding to be able to simply adjust the production ratios, and my fix was just to remove transplutonics from the formulas and increase the metal input amounts to keep the $in->$out balance the same so that the forge is just entirely compressing low-value loot into higher value loot.  So yes, I take a money loss in operating the forges, but the value of the forge to me is in compressing thousands of units of junk metal loot gained from outer system exploration into just hundreds of units of higher-value supplies/machinery I can resell when I get back to core worlds, thus allowing me to visit a system on mission, acquire 1000+ metal loot, refine it into 200 machinery or supplies as I travel to the next mission, freeing up my holds for the next system's loot, and repeat for the 3-4 more stops before returning back to civilization.  Plus having an emergency source of supply or fuel generation if I miscalculate my needs or I come back to a core world that demands 3x normal prices.  Plus, as my fleet gets huge, having a source of being able to whip up supplies & fuel for when the markets of the core system I've visited just quite literally don't have enough fuel/supplies to sell me for all my needs as I head out on a 1-3 month voyage.

Glad to hear that the setting adjustments were satisfactory! Since people tend to have radically differing from mine views on ratios, restrictions and constraints, I figured providing extensive options was absolutely necessary.

If I could make a suggestion for future improvements to the mod, I'd add a few more forges:
  • Heavy Armaments - Most factions don't sell these on open markets, or if they do it's just small amounts, so having a means to make your own and in larger volumes could be valuable for Nexerilin military operations.  Could be made from metals & transplutonics, or metal & heavy machinery, etc.
  • Transplutonics - made from regular metals, i.e. 10 metals turns into 1 transplutonic.  Would help create a closed-economy in the forges; if you balance your fleet's forges properly you can run a mining fleet with a continual pipeline of mined iron ore -> metal -> transplutonics -> machinery for running said forges + supplies for the whole fleet + extra stuff to sell off.
  • Volatiles - basically a reverse fuel centrifuge.  Looting more fuel than your tankers can hold?  Stabilize it into volatiles that you can store in your cargo haulers for those rainy days when a friendly scavenger dumb pirate armada doesn't attack you to give you the fuel you need to get home, forcing you to turn on the fuel centrifuge.

Heavy Armaments could be an option, but what stops me is purpose considerations: planetary operations are a very niche use case, and it is something that usually is done not that often. In this case I feel like buying up and saving Heavy armaments vanilla way is a satisfactory interaction as it is, unlike supplies and fuel. As for making transplutonics for metal and volatiles from fuel - that's not something I'd like to see, since it doesn't sound like anything plausible in terms of vanilla-friendliness.

All in all, great mod.  Thank you for your hard work.

Thanks for your extensive feedback, much appreciated!
« Last Edit: December 28, 2022, 03:35:58 AM by Ontheheavens »
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draken16

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Re: [0.95.1a] Forge Production v1.0.5
« Reply #52 on: January 17, 2023, 04:16:55 PM »

Hi, the mod specs are sold for too much on the markets. I think the intention was to make them harder to get, however what actually happens is i have like 6+ of them after doing some exploration quests (from salvage or derelicts stations, etc) and they give too much money. 1 million credits worth for exploring maybe 4 systems just from the value of these mod specs.

My suggestions is either lower their value/price or maybe stop them from dropping so you can only buy them.
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Ontheheavens

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Re: [0.95.1a] Forge Production v1.0.5
« Reply #53 on: January 17, 2023, 11:14:08 PM »

Hi, the mod specs are sold for too much on the markets. I think the intention was to make them harder to get, however what actually happens is i have like 6+ of them after doing some exploration quests (from salvage or derelicts stations, etc) and they give too much money. 1 million credits worth for exploring maybe 4 systems just from the value of these mod specs.

My suggestions is either lower their value/price or maybe stop them from dropping so you can only buy them.

Hi, thanks for the feedback. Been somewhat aware of that but forgot to fix in previous patches - already made some adjustments for the next one that hopefully should make the issue obsolete.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2023, 04:08:32 AM by Ontheheavens »
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TheHZDev

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Re: [0.95.1a] Forge Production v1.0.5
« Reply #54 on: January 19, 2023, 05:49:47 AM »

Sir, can you allow me to translate this mod into Chinese and post it on the Chinese Starsector Forum(https://fossic.org)?
The original translator was no longer active a few months ago.

Thank you very much.
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Ontheheavens

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Re: [0.95.1a] Forge Production v1.0.5
« Reply #55 on: January 19, 2023, 07:24:53 AM »

Sir, can you allow me to translate this mod into Chinese and post it on the Chinese Starsector Forum(https://fossic.org)?
The original translator was no longer active a few months ago.

Thank you very much.

Sure thing! Sorry for not making the mod translation-friendly and woeful, smelly code habits, for which I am deeply ashamed before esteemed Chinese community.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2023, 07:58:13 AM by Ontheheavens »
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FreonRu

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Re: [0.95.1a] Forge Production v1.0.5
« Reply #56 on: January 19, 2023, 09:41:52 AM »

Awesome modification.
Are there any plans to make a special ship that will already have built-in modifications for resource processing? Or are the plans limited only to modspecs?
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Ontheheavens

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Re: [0.95.1a] Forge Production v1.0.5
« Reply #57 on: January 19, 2023, 11:10:03 AM »

Awesome modification.
Are there any plans to make a special ship that will already have built-in modifications for resource processing? Or are the plans limited only to modspecs?

I've had that idea for a long time, but my spriting skills leave much to be desired, and I certainly wouldn't want to half-ass it - if I ever get my hands on some satisfactory-looking sprite (what I have in mind in particular is reworked Domain Mothership, or similarly sized superfreighter), I think I'll implement something. Though, that seems very unlikely, as my expectations in sprite department are a bit inflated...

There are good ships from other mods, like Vayra's Bear capital, but cross-mod interactions are frankly not my thing.
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Ontheheavens

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Re: [0.95.1a] Forge Production v1.1.0
« Reply #58 on: January 28, 2023, 10:23:03 AM »

Updated to 1.1.0
  • New feature: Control panel, which allows for toggling of individual production capacities. No more setting repairs suspension!
  • New feature: Hull parts production capacity - can produce some derelict and low tech frigates at a steep cost, requires having Salvage Rigs.
  • New feature: Plausible way of obtaining hullmods - salvage from derelict Motherships. Hullmods are now unobtainable via normal drop or markets.
  • Re-designed and rewritten mod internals - this update is most certainly guaranteed to break your saves.
  • Reshuffled and removed some superficial settings.
  • Production report message icon no longer clickable and doesn't take you to intel tab anymore.
  • Production now also has a chance to trigger fatal incidents which result in a loss of crew, similar to breakdowns.
  • Redone pretty much every tooltip - hullmods, ability, report.
  • Removed civgrade and cargo restrictions, replaced with CR malus.
  • Included interactive production values spreadsheet in release package - might be a help in making settings adjustments.
Content preview:
[close]
This update was only minimally playtested - bugreports or constructive feedback welcome.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2023, 09:44:55 PM by Ontheheavens »
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Tonality

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Re: [0.95.1a] Forge Production v1.1.0
« Reply #59 on: February 27, 2023, 09:27:05 PM »

This is likely only Mac-related, but left control does not work to open the menu.  I also tried the command and option keys, which sometimes work in place of control.
I was able to re-assign the key to an arbitrary key (J) in the config settings for the mod, which solved my issue.

I figure I'm in the minority playing StarSector on a Mac, so I'm also posting this in case someone else encounters this.

I'm enjoying the mod!
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