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Author Topic: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 249021 times)

Ruddygreat

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #840 on: December 20, 2021, 03:35:24 PM »

seconding the shield shunt question in particular - it wasn't particularly good at 25% (although i get why building in was blocked), why nerf it to 15%?

Mainly because it had the possibility of being too good, and the problem with something like this - which cuts a lot of gameplay out of the game by making a ship which is fairly one-dimensional to pilot - is if it's too strong, it really damages the game. I'll keep an eye on it, though.

huh, I'm kinda surprised that you thought it could end up too good - even the best build I came up with would've probably been improved by dropping shunt in favour of having shields at all, they just improve performance in sustained engagements that much
(although it's not the final build, i later built in RBH and swapped the broadswords for xyphoses) here's the ship in question - it's pretty good at duelling other caps, but without support it'll just die to smaller ships dealing chip damage / sneaking the occasional torpedo in
Spoiler
[close]

and as for taking a dimension out of gameplay - imo it was much more interesting, having no shields punishes overextension & bad positioning far more than i would've expected (especially when fighting low tech, piranhas are an actual threat when you can't shield their mines) so most of my battles in this bad boy were much more thoughtful than my usual "playing frigate-snooker with an odyssey's shield"
« Last Edit: December 20, 2021, 03:48:13 PM by Ruddygreat »
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2_Wycked

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #841 on: December 20, 2021, 03:40:21 PM »

Is the update compatible with saves from the previous most recent hotfix?
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #842 on: December 20, 2021, 03:51:33 PM »

If HSA was a bad idea then just get rid of it. It's better then having it be useless except for niche situations where it's maybe overpowered. Is 10 Glimmers with HSA and full beams broken right now, will it be broken in a future patch, will any new beams be broken with HSA in the future? Leaving a potential landmine lying around for the sake of keeping a bad idea is bad praxis, imo.

That's fair, yeah. What I'd love to do eventually is replace it with something else, but that wasn't in the cards for a hotfix, so I guess we'll see.

Is the update compatible with saves from the previous most recent hotfix?

Yes!

huh, I'm kinda surprised that you thought it could end up too good - even the best build I came up with would've probably been improved by dropping shunt in favour of having shields at all, they just improve performance in sustained engagements that much
(although it's not the final build, i later built in RBH and swapped the broadswords for xyphoses) here's the ship in question - it's pretty good at duelling other caps, but without support it'll just die to smaller ships dealing chip damage / sneaking the occasional torpedo in
Spoiler
[close]

and as for taking a dimension out of gameplay - imo it was much more interesting, having no shields punishes overextension & bad positioning far more than i would've expected (especially when fighting low tech, piranhas are an actual threat when you can't shield their mines) so most of my battles in this bad boy were much more thoughtful than my usual "playing frigate-snooker with an odyssey's shield"

Hmm - I appreciate that feedback, too. I honestly mean that; I'll definitely remember that and it helps form my overall picture of things.
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Baqar79

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #843 on: December 20, 2021, 03:54:02 PM »

I just installed the game over the top of RC5, but I had this super weird issue where loading my game actually loaded my old save from 0.95a (which is in another folder).  I was extremely confused for a while and thought it had erased my save, though on reloading the same save again it then correctly loaded the actual save.

Maybe I loaded the older version of the game previously and when I hit continue on the newer version of the game (I can't remember if I hit continue or selected the save game) it may of tried to load that game save instead?
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Caymon Joestar

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #844 on: December 20, 2021, 04:12:33 PM »

BRF turned out to be too much of a no-brainer IMO.

seconding the shield shunt question in particular - it wasn't particularly good at 25% (although i get why building in was blocked), why nerf it to 15%?

Mainly because it had the possibility of being too good, and the problem with something like this - which cuts a lot of gameplay out of the game by making a ship which is fairly one-dimensional to pilot - is if it's too strong, it really damages the game. I'll keep an eye on it, though.

And, yeah, the "can't s-mod it" change is because the main reason you'd want to is so you can remove makeshift shield generator afterwards and keep it. It's otherwise too cheap to want to s-mod it in so it shouldn't have much of an effect otherwise.

Why the HSA changes?

Because, frankly, I think HSA was a bad idea in the first place and it's a tough one to work with. Some beam weapons are in a place where if you turn them into hard flux dealers without a penalty, the become absolute monsters. The Phase Lance, for example - HSA + Phase Lance basically makes Heavy Blasters entirely obsolete. Reducing range is just about the only way to generically (that is, not on a per-weapon basis) adjust it so that it doesn't end up making a bunch of other stuff useless, and it's far better for it to be extremely situational than it is for it to be too good and therefore the only good choice in many situations.


Shield shunt: One Dimensional gameplay? If anything, it gets harder since armor dont regen and the game has 50 million ways of killing you through your armor thanks to 75% of missiles being HE. If you really dont want to give it any more armor (even tho it's not really a issue) why not replace the shield with a damper field instead? Or Give it back its EMP dmg reduction on top.

HSA: I guess but then at that point, it's about as useful as advanced turret gyros or recovery shuttles (Which is to say, not very useful at all, Those 2 also could use a Complete rework)
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Zuthal

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #845 on: December 20, 2021, 04:31:10 PM »

Shield shunt: One Dimensional gameplay? If anything, it gets harder since armor dont regen and the game has 50 million ways of killing you through your armor thanks to 75% of missiles being HE. If you really dont want to give it any more armor (even tho it's not really a issue) why not replace the shield with a damper field instead? Or Give it back its EMP dmg reduction on top.

I'd definitely agree with giving Shield Shunt its EMP reduction back - EMP damage is honestly (at least on lighter ships) an even bigger threat for a shieldless ship than missiles, since missiles can often just be shot down or dodged.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #846 on: December 20, 2021, 05:00:12 PM »

I just installed the game over the top of RC5, but I had this super weird issue where loading my game actually loaded my old save from 0.95a (which is in another folder).  I was extremely confused for a while and thought it had erased my save, though on reloading the same save again it then correctly loaded the actual save.

Maybe I loaded the older version of the game previously and when I hit continue on the newer version of the game (I can't remember if I hit continue or selected the save game) it may of tried to load that game save instead?

That sounds like it might be some kind of windows filesystem caching weirdness or some such. That's just... strange.


HSA: I guess but then at that point, it's about as useful as advanced turret gyros or recovery shuttles (Which is to say, not very useful at all, Those 2 also could use a Complete rework)

The shuttles are very situationally alright, but yeah, kind of in the same place as far as if they're too good they're mandatory and carriers don't need that kind of required OP sink. Gyros are just... kind of there because it feels like there ought to be something that boosts turret turn rate, but yeah, they're very  marginal too.

I mean, I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure those need to be redesigned into powerhouse hullmods, either. HSA was meant to be something more special, but I don't think the concept as it is works for that.

Shield shunt: One Dimensional gameplay? If anything, it gets harder since armor dont regen and the game has 50 million ways of killing you through your armor thanks to 75% of missiles being HE. If you really dont want to give it any more armor (even tho it's not really a issue) why not replace the shield with a damper field instead? Or Give it back its EMP dmg reduction on top.

I'd definitely agree with giving Shield Shunt its EMP reduction back - EMP damage is honestly (at least on lighter ships) an even bigger threat for a shieldless ship than missiles, since missiles can often just be shot down or dodged.

Generally speaking I try to avoid having too many things that do the same thing. There's already a couple of sources of EMP resistance *and* ways to increase weapon/engine hitpoints and reduce the damage they take - I think there are plenty of options there!
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SonnaBanana

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #847 on: December 20, 2021, 05:06:08 PM »

No changes to Cybernetic Augmentation?
Absolutely unplayable! :P
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I'm not going to check but you should feel bad :( - Alex

FooF

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #848 on: December 20, 2021, 06:06:44 PM »

Not sure of some of these, or at least they feel out of the blue.

Xyphos now 18 OP? I’ve never thought they were in need a nerf. You’re trading actual damage for utility and if you put it on a capital, they’re typically outranged. I don’t understand this at all.

HSA: Even with previous stats it never felt overpowered. I was using an Odyssey with HSA and 2x HIL and found it underwhelming. I ended up swapping it out for Plasma and Autopulse. It was ok but barely competitive. Even Tach Lance and HIL didn’t impress me that much. Losing the range kinda of defeated the purpose. Another head-scratcher to me.

Breach nerf: I barely used these as-is because they just don’t compete against finishers. If they’re slightly overturned, that’s fine because they need something extra to make them intra-competitive.

Shield shunt: I disagree with the armor % nerf. You’re giving up a ton to lose shields and it needs a ton of skills to make it competitive. I haven’t found the gameplay to be one dimensional, it’s just different. I consider shield shunt to be an alternative play style like SO. There’s a definite advantage but a distinct disadvantage. If there’a no true advantage, why would I trade away shields? 15% isn’t enough. I get 10% from AMW. How is 5% more than that worth losing shields for?

The rest are good moves and/or understandable. I don’t get the above though.

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Thaago

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #849 on: December 20, 2021, 06:11:51 PM »

...

HSA: I guess but then at that point, it's about as useful as advanced turret gyros or recovery shuttles (Which is to say, not very useful at all, Those 2 also could use a Complete rework)

The shuttles are very situationally alright, but yeah, kind of in the same place as far as if they're too good they're mandatory and carriers don't need that kind of required OP sink. Gyros are just... kind of there because it feels like there ought to be something that boosts turret turn rate, but yeah, they're very  marginal too.

I mean, I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure those need to be redesigned into powerhouse hullmods, either. HSA was meant to be something more special, but I don't think the concept as it is works for that.
...


Advanced Turret Gyros are actually a very useful hullmod for some builds, especially as it is cheap enough to be a bit of build finesse instead of a tax.

Any ship that turns rapidly but uses a large slow gun (hello conquest + gauss), or any ship that uses a burst beam on a turret (Tach Lance Paragon/Champion), wants the hullmod. Continuous beams too if the target is dodging or the source ship is turning: the beam will stop firing if its off target and need to extend all over again, but if the turn rate can keep up it will keep firing. Its also useful on any ship with medium ballistics where you expect to need to fight fast frigates and fighters (like say, remnants or tesseracts): a lot of damage and tracking issues are not shot speed/target leading, but the turrets not being able to stay on target. It also can allow for burst pd beams to better deal with saturation missiles as they can snap to a new nearby target during the burst more effectively. Also anyone who has seen your Heavy Blaster on SO frigates missing shots even though you are at 100% CR and close, or missing the initial shot when the turret is turning to get to the target from its "rest" position: Advanced Turret Gyros helps to fix those too.
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Wyvern

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #850 on: December 20, 2021, 06:19:17 PM »

Xyphos now 18 OP? I’ve never thought they were in need a nerf. You’re trading actual damage for utility and if you put it on a capital, they’re typically outranged. I don’t understand this at all.
Xyphos on capitals are... usually not a good idea, yeah, since they don't inherit range boosts from capital-grade ITU. Cruisers it's a bit more of a toss-up. Where they were arguably too good was in converted hangars on destroyers - nearly all of my most effective destroyer variants prior to this version used a Xyphos wing.

I just installed the game over the top of RC5, but I had this super weird issue where loading my game actually loaded my old save from 0.95a (which is in another folder).  I was extremely confused for a while and thought it had erased my save, though on reloading the same save again it then correctly loaded the actual save.

Maybe I loaded the older version of the game previously and when I hit continue on the newer version of the game (I can't remember if I hit continue or selected the save game) it may of tried to load that game save instead?

That sounds like it might be some kind of windows filesystem caching weirdness or some such. That's just... strange.


HSA: I guess but then at that point, it's about as useful as advanced turret gyros or recovery shuttles (Which is to say, not very useful at all, Those 2 also could use a Complete rework)

The shuttles are very situationally alright, but yeah, kind of in the same place as far as if they're too good they're mandatory and carriers don't need that kind of required OP sink. Gyros are just... kind of there because it feels like there ought to be something that boosts turret turn rate, but yeah, they're very  marginal too.

I mean, I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure those need to be redesigned into powerhouse hullmods, either. HSA was meant to be something more special, but I don't think the concept as it is works for that.
...Huh. I always figured that Recovery Shuttles was there just as a setting-theme thing, a sort of a reminder that yes, life is cheap, and no, you're going to pick the option that gives you more combat power over the option that preserves the lives of your pilots. (This is one reason that I vastly prefer to deploy drone fighters when I can. It just feels better.)

And turret gyros? Those are useful! I mean, okay, not something I install everywhere - but they're good on anything with wide turret arcs, and especially necessary for, say, turreted HILs, or ships using armored weapon mounts.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #851 on: December 20, 2021, 06:25:28 PM »

Duly noted re: Turret Gyros! I don't use them very much myself, but, yeah, this makes a lot of sense.

...Huh. I always figured that Recovery Shuttles was there just as a setting-theme thing, a sort of a reminder that yes, life is cheap, and no, you're going to pick the option that gives you more combat power over the option that preserves the lives of your pilots. (This is one reason that I vastly prefer to deploy drone fighters when I can. It just feels better.)

(Ah, emergent story telling?)
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Sly

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #852 on: December 20, 2021, 06:28:30 PM »

HSA is absurdly overpowered on phase ships, and slightly less so on ships with mobility systems who at least usually take fire on approach.

Spoiler
You can solo endgame fleets with the Ziggy, HSA, and Tachyon Beams. You're not literally unstoppable, but you might as well be. Granted, that's an extreme edge case.
[close]

Beams have solid use and niche without HSA. I *like* including non-HSA beam equipped ships in fire support and skirmish roles in my fleet. It's very satisfying watching ballistic and beam ships working in concert to carve up a stubborn enemy efficiently.

Without trying to sound overly antagonistic, I've almost never used HSA Beams because of how brain dead it is. As a hull mod, I think you're right: it was a bad idea.

All of that being said, I don't think HSA needs to be removed entirely. One or two [HYPER REDACTED] beam weapons with HSA's ability sounds like a good addition to that particular suite of weapons. A bit bland without any flavorful sprites or lore, but you guys are fantastic with all the little details.

(I like Recovery Shuttles and Blast Doors for saving the lives of my digital crew - the poor bastards - and turret gyros are great for countering fast-moving ships and PD with a little extra oomph. *Especially* with PDAI.)
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #853 on: December 20, 2021, 06:35:29 PM »

HSA: Even with previous stats it never felt overpowered. I was using an Odyssey with HSA and 2x HIL and found it underwhelming. I ended up swapping it out for Plasma and Autopulse. It was ok but barely competitive. Even Tach Lance and HIL didn’t impress me that much. Losing the range kinda of defeated the purpose. Another head-scratcher to me.
HIL is like the worst possible weapon to use it with. HE means you still suck against shields so the hard flux is much less impactful (you're still gonna lose the flux war trading 1:2), but you lost a bunch of range. Feels like you really want it when using graviton beams primarily, and maybe tac lasers or tach lances/phase lances would also benefit somewhat, but at the end of the day, none of those have stunning efficiency. Probably doesn't belong on an odyssey at all TBH.
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Baqar79

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #854 on: December 20, 2021, 06:43:28 PM »

...Huh. I always figured that Recovery Shuttles was there just as a setting-theme thing, a sort of a reminder that yes, life is cheap, and no, you're going to pick the option that gives you more combat power over the option that preserves the lives of your pilots. (This is one reason that I vastly prefer to deploy drone fighters when I can. It just feels better.)

And turret gyros? Those are useful! I mean, okay, not something I install everywhere - but they're good on anything with wide turret arcs, and especially necessary for, say, turreted HILs, or ships using armored weapon mounts.
I pretty much install Blast Doors everywhere to lower casualty count...never mind if I wasn't so reckless and a little more smarter with how I play the game I wouldn't have those casualties to begin with.  I do prefer to use drones myself and my Apogee's have now migrated away from the Xyphos to the Lux Heavy Fighters.

I do make use of Advanced Turret Gyros though on my Doom...but I'm not sure exactly how much benefit they are giving...in fact my Doom build under AI control doesn't seem to be working too well at the moment (My measure of whether a ship under AI control is doing well is if it can beat ships in the simulator of similar Deployment points or greater, but it is failing there, even with a level 6 officer).
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