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Author Topic: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 250449 times)

Rojnaz

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #330 on: November 14, 2021, 05:38:58 PM »

I have been using the Gremlin a lot lately, it's a fun little ship, reliable as a "Double Light Needler Brawler" or "Annihilator Rocket Launcher Assassin", can't wait to try Phase Anchor with it, Sounds like fun.

Right now Gremlin (LP) doesn't feel good to use, it eats it own CR too fast, id like to see Gremlin (LP) have access to Accelerated Ammo Feeder instead of Safety Overrides, it would have synergy with Phase Anchor and it would feel different from the rest of the Phase Ships, without being better than them.
Thematically, could make sense as an "Ill-Advised Modification" because doing continuous fire with a Phase Ship it's a bad idea.

Anyway, the update looks great, the ships with rugged construction are my favorites, really want to test the derrelict drones.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2021, 05:47:39 PM by Rojnaz »
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SonnaBanana

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #331 on: November 14, 2021, 05:43:37 PM »

Any chance the player won't be able to personally govern colonies?
Or piggybacking colony-related benefits onto non-colony skills?
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #332 on: November 14, 2021, 05:51:59 PM »

suddenly noticed a bug in 0.95:
picking skills for admin in OfficerManagerEvent.createAdmin() doesn't check skills' "player_only" tag, will it be fixed in 0.951?

(Forgot to say: thank you, fixed this up!)
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Thaago

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #333 on: November 14, 2021, 06:05:04 PM »

The lack of Energy missiles in the game is...disturbing. Just sayin' :P You really could go wild with them: disablers, slow-moving death balls, chain-effects...the sky is the limit. Even more traditional Energy missiles pose an interesting dilemma: a 2000 damage Energy missile is a moderate hit against both shields and hull but if it also was an Ion hit, I really don't want to get disabled! At least something like that would give the Sabot some competition: depending on ammo, OP, etc.

In my experience from playing with mods torpedoes with an energy damage type are very difficult from a balance perspective because large shot size energy has no weaknesses, and torpedoes are by nature very large impacts. Something like a 2000 damage energy missile will strip the armor of cruisers in a single shot: the only effective defense against them is shields, no ship in the game wants to take that kind of hit to armor! But they do double the damage the damage vs shields than an HE torpedo does, so blocking them with shields is half as effective.
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Caymon Joestar

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #334 on: November 14, 2021, 06:13:06 PM »

Any chance the player won't be able to personally govern colonies?
Or piggybacking colony-related benefits onto non-colony skills?

wat? Why would you want this?
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SonnaBanana

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #335 on: November 14, 2021, 06:26:26 PM »

Any chance the player won't be able to personally govern colonies?
Or piggybacking colony-related benefits onto non-colony skills?

wat? Why would you want this?

1: Plenty of arguments why, see this thread - https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=22294.0

2: To provide more ways of buffing colonies through skills without increasing the number of skills
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Deshara

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #336 on: November 15, 2021, 04:08:26 AM »

I wonder if part of it is once a ship's shields are down or it's overloaded, it's weapons are no longer firing being disabled, it feels more like a chore than a fight, despite perhaps taking an equal amount of time compared to a more mobile and/or shielded enemy.  It's like the Monitor - next to impossible to kill, but unable to actually do any harm, and thus can be considered annoying in the opposing fleet.

Someone suggested disabled weapons still being able to fire at half rate or whatever. I think that would help a lot both for fighting tough ships and to make it suck less when your own weapons get disabled.

Engines could probably do with a similar thing - flamed out ships still having a few engines.

prey did this, had weapon durability but when your weapon's reaches 0 it doesn't break, it just jams every time you fire it after it fires, turning all guns into single-shot manually operated guns.
which i really, really, really liked.
i could see SS rotating something similar onto itself; instead of weapons getting disabled or engines flamed out by enemy damage (barring catastrophic hits), they get put into an "unstable" state. Using an unstable weapon causes it to become disabled temporarily, & using an unstable engine causes it to flame out after a delay. So instead of being rendered unable to do things by the enemy's actions -- which can be not-great, you are rendered only able to do 1 thing by the enemy's actions -- which can be compelling. In a sort of, having to make a leap of faith by picking a direction u think ur gonna want to be going for the next 4-12 seconds & giving it a burn until the engines flame out leaving u coasting in the direction u picked, kind of way.
So instead of taking a stray shot to the aft while approaching an enemy Onslaught in ur frigate causing you guarenteed death, that shot to the engines instead leaves your engines unstable, allowing you to use what gas is left in the burner to try & halt your approach & leave yourself coasting away from the gigantic death-monster instead of towards like u were when u took the hit


The lack of Energy missiles in the game is...disturbing. Just sayin' :P You really could go wild with them: disablers, slow-moving death balls, chain-effects...the sky is the limit. Even more traditional Energy missiles pose an interesting dilemma: a 2000 damage Energy missile is a moderate hit against both shields and hull but if it also was an Ion hit, I really don't want to get disabled! At least something like that would give the Sabot some competition: depending on ammo, OP, etc.

In my experience from playing with mods torpedoes with an energy damage type are very difficult from a balance perspective because large shot size energy has no weaknesses, and torpedoes are by nature very large impacts. Something like a 2000 damage energy missile will strip the armor of cruisers in a single shot: the only effective defense against them is shields, no ship in the game wants to take that kind of hit to armor! But they do double the damage the damage vs shields than an HE torpedo does, so blocking them with shields is half as effective.

plus any energy torpedo that does have its damage balanced against its utility winds up feeling really bad as a torpedo. Energy torps have 2 textures to them; they hit way too hard for what they are, or they hit way too not-hard for what they are. The sort of damage alpha that a torpedo calls for doesn't work well with universal damage type. It's best to specialize them so u have an excuse to make them heinous.
What I really want to see is a frag torpedo. A lot of missiles are listed as finishers but I want to see a finisher; a MIRV full of cluster bombs that doesn't start firing until after it's entered an enemy ship (as in, it doesn't "impact" like a normal missile, it flies thru the ship like a fighter but invisible to the player as it does, dealing damage (which the player can see in the form of explosions) as it goes & "impacts" the armor on the far side of the ship when it attempts to exit the target & blows up instead of overshooting. The sort of thing you can sink into an Onslaught thru a gap in its armor & watch it get hollowed out. The sort of thing that turns a flamed-out Hound into a cloud of dust & echoing screams
« Last Edit: November 15, 2021, 04:16:05 AM by Deshara »
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FooF

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #337 on: November 15, 2021, 05:04:22 AM »

The lack of Energy missiles in the game is...disturbing. Just sayin' :P You really could go wild with them: disablers, slow-moving death balls, chain-effects...the sky is the limit. Even more traditional Energy missiles pose an interesting dilemma: a 2000 damage Energy missile is a moderate hit against both shields and hull but if it also was an Ion hit, I really don't want to get disabled! At least something like that would give the Sabot some competition: depending on ammo, OP, etc.

In my experience from playing with mods torpedoes with an energy damage type are very difficult from a balance perspective because large shot size energy has no weaknesses, and torpedoes are by nature very large impacts. Something like a 2000 damage energy missile will strip the armor of cruisers in a single shot: the only effective defense against them is shields, no ship in the game wants to take that kind of hit to armor! But they do double the damage the damage vs shields than an HE torpedo does, so blocking them with shields is half as effective.

All true. But a hypothetical 2000 damage energy torpedo is half as powerful as a Reaper against armor and twice as good against shields, and we deal with Reapers all the time. The balancing levers you pull are ammo, OP cost, delivery methods, ease to shoot down, etc. The damage itself isn’t the only factor to consider. Honestly, if you do take a hit on hull, this torpedo does less damage than any other finisher except a Harpoon. So, even when it does hit, you’re not getting the same “oomph” as the others. The trade off is that the shield hit might cause an overload.

As long as the other balance levers are in place, an energy torpedo (to me) is no better or worse than an HE one: it has its own pros and cons.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2021, 05:57:24 AM by FooF »
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #338 on: November 15, 2021, 05:25:33 AM »

My 2 cents on a few raised points:
Commerce was the best industry slot for making money by a factor of 2.5 or more, but it doesn't supply any goods for reducing maintenance and has that stability penalty. I'm not sure if 25% is too harsh or not, it depends on how the item and upgrades are changed as well.
My guess, too harsh on its own without upgrades, but not harsh enough after it is thrice upgraded with SP, Dealmaker, and Alpha Core.
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #339 on: November 15, 2021, 07:25:11 AM »

All true. But a hypothetical 2000 damage energy torpedo is half as powerful as a Reaper against armor and twice as good against shields, and we deal with Reapers all the time. The balancing levers you pull are ammo, OP cost, delivery methods, ease to shoot down, etc. The damage itself isn’t the only factor to consider. Honestly, if you do take a hit on hull, this torpedo does less damage than any other finisher except a Harpoon. So, even when it does hit, you’re not getting the same “oomph” as the others. The trade off is that the shield hit might cause an overload.

As long as the other balance levers are in place, an energy torpedo (to me) is no better or worse than an HE one: it has its own pros and cons.

I'll point out a hypothetical 2000 energy damage torpedo is theoretically 1/4 as powerful as a Reaper against armor since 4000 high explosive * 2 = 8000 (2000 vs 8000), not half.  However, Reapers are ludicrous overkill against any armor in the game, even a fully kitted Onslaught XIV with officer.  Any ship taking a Reaper to armor will have 0 armor left in that spot.  As Thaago said, 2000 armor damage will pretty much leave any cruiser not named Dominator with 0 armor in a single hit, along with half the capitals.

A 2000 energy damage torpedo is equally good against shields as a Reaper since 4000 high explosive * 0.5 = 2000 (2000 vs 2000), not double.  It is also equally good as a single Sabot (200 kinetic*5*2 = 2000), but given the 3 to 1 ammo and no non-linear effects against shields, makes it about 1/3 as good (probably less if it's a true unguided torpedo) as a typical set of 3 Sabots. 

So, we've already hit the first balancing point, which is what job is a  single 2000 damage energy torpedo filling?  It's straight up less effective than a Reaper if there's a 1 to 1 correspondence in ammo for these things (armor penetration is essentially equal since nothing in the game has 5000 armor, hull is half, shield is the same).  So do we field them like Hammers? 2 to 1 ammo?  Then when considered in aggregate, said energy torpedo two pack is essentially twice the armor penetration, same hull damage, and twice the shield, at the very first adjustment to ammo.  So ammo perhaps a too coarse balancing knob.

Do we make them not torpedoes and turn them into some kind of guided munition like Atropos with 1 to 1 ammo correspondence with Reapers?  That's also is pretty coarse balancing point, since as soon as these become guided, you run into the mass Harpoon style situation - but fired at the start of combat instead of when something gets overloaded. 

You're basically down to how hard this thing is to shoot down or dodge as your balancing point, which is difficult and somewhat nebulous.  Overall it sounds like something hard to balance to me.  Not impossible, but really hard as you're trying to find some use case that doesn't lead to simply replacing Reapers, Sabots or being strictly worse than either.   We've already got Reaper vs Hammer in the unguided armor opening space.  Single big hit sabots were considered too strong at 750 kinetic (21 times less penetration than a Reaper) and split into the current EMP + split shot version with 80 times less penetration.

My experience with guided energy missile equivalents to Harpoons (even with damage significantly reduced from 750 energy) in tournament is they're openers, whose punishment for not taking it on the shield is it's a finisher.  They really are mostly competing with Sabots.  And ships on the receiving end either overload due to being forced to take it on shield, or take hull damage immediately because their armor is gone.  Or more usually, 10 of these come in and the ship overloads and blows up, since the excess beyond shield overload isn't wasted at all when it hits armor and hull.  Just spam one missile type until dead.  Or they get toned down the point where 10 of these don't overload shields.  Again, the hard to balance issue.
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FreonRu

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #340 on: November 15, 2021, 09:03:21 AM »

Good day. I apologize in advance for using google translate.

All the changes are interesting and can't wait to try it out. Is there a chance that the update will be released before the new year?
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #341 on: November 15, 2021, 09:05:57 AM »

I mean, antimatter SRM is already in the game at 1000 energy damage with unlimited ammo, and while it's a borderline OP omega weapon, I don't think it's so far unbalanced from the rest of the weapons in the game that you couldn't balance it down to non-omega weapon level. It's worth noting that adding a flux cost to fire is a reasonable balance lever that has already been used.

Also, 2000 damage is a quite high damage level, there's a ton of balance space below that where a hypothetical energy torpedo would be significantly less effective.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2021, 09:55:07 AM by intrinsic_parity »
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Grievous69

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #342 on: November 15, 2021, 09:16:25 AM »

All the changes are interesting and can't wait to try it out. Is there a chance that the update will be released before the new year?
I mean there's a chance but that's not really saying anything. If it's any consolation this should be the majority of patch notes, and since Alex has entered the playtesting phase, it should be pretty Soon™-ish. I'd say there's a 80% chance of the release happening this year.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #343 on: November 15, 2021, 09:47:39 AM »

So far, whenever patch notes drop like this (after months of blogs), release is relatively imminent.
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Zakaluka

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #344 on: November 15, 2021, 10:20:52 AM »

Something I have not seen asked (sorry if I missed it, only skimmed the 23 pages of comments)

Added slipstreams to hyperspace
   New slipstream systems form in hyperspace twice per cycle
   Can drastically speed up travel and cut fuel use
   Loosely follow certain patterns that can be figured out


Will slipstreams affect colony accessibility? I mean, if you get favorable slipstreams it seems like our accessibility bonus for "proximity to other colonies" should go up, and if the slipstreams are useless the bonus/penalty should remain as is now.

Thoughts?
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