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Author Topic: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 248896 times)

SafariJohn

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #270 on: November 12, 2021, 06:56:40 PM »

I wonder if part of it is once a ship's shields are down or it's overloaded, it's weapons are no longer firing being disabled, it feels more like a chore than a fight, despite perhaps taking an equal amount of time compared to a more mobile and/or shielded enemy.  It's like the Monitor - next to impossible to kill, but unable to actually do any harm, and thus can be considered annoying in the opposing fleet.

Someone suggested disabled weapons still being able to fire at half rate or whatever. I think that would help a lot both for fighting tough ships and to make it suck less when your own weapons get disabled.

Engines could probably do with a similar thing - flamed out ships still having a few engines.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #271 on: November 12, 2021, 08:47:06 PM »

So I've only read about 9 pages worth of posts but I'm surprised two changes didn't get more attention.
1) Commerce: reduced base income bonus to 25% (was: 50%)
Please, PLEASE tell me that this includes a shift from it being an industry to a structure. This nerf in combination of the already severe -3 stability, all to gain access to some income and a place to sell seems way WAY too much! What was the reasoning behind this? This is already considered one of, if not the worst industries in the game due to the current stats.
In my mind, I would have it so that it was +25%, a structure and at MOST -1 stability. Something that takes up such a precious slot should not be so punishing to the player.

2) Cryoblaster: Reduced damage to 1250 (was: 1600)
I don't see the reason behind this either. Before it was a 4 OP more expensive, rare weapon that was a bit more flux efficient than the Heavy Blaster (1.25 Flux/Damage for anything that is not stripped armor  versus 1.44 F/D for the HB) with the minor bonus effect of doing more damage to the enemy as their armor wore down. With the changes, it puts this well below the the HB in efficiency (1.6 vs. 1.44 for the HB)  and the "effect" is too rare to happen in my mind that it would make any difference. Combine that with the fact that this is a limited amount, "you might not get any at all or only one" kind of weapon and you have something that was alright if not a bit good to get, to something that is pretty much trash in my mind.
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DaShiv

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #272 on: November 12, 2021, 09:28:03 PM »

Someone suggested disabled weapons still being able to fire at half rate or whatever. I think that would help a lot both for fighting tough ships and to make it suck less when your own weapons get disabled.

Engines could probably do with a similar thing - flamed out ships still having a few engines.

I feel that there are so many (stackable!) ways to increase weapon/engine hp/regeneration, decrease EMP impact, decrease damage taken by components, etc, that further diminishing the actual disabled effect itself would be overkill, especially for EMP weapons. Consider that Armored Weapon Mount will be more popular now with its recoil bonus, and that's already a full +100% weapon durability.

That said, similar to the overly-large fighters bonus for Point Defense, I feel that the +100% bonus on Elite Target Analysis makes it too trivial to take out weapons/engines using spammy, non-EMP weapons like Hurricanes, or even just using random damage in general. I would rather have that bonus reduced to +50% and instead add an additional bonus for EMP weapons, like perhaps larger EMP impact radius, or allowing EMP arcs to affect a 2nd target (considering how many arcs are wasted on already-disabled targets), etc. - something that's not a raw damage effect. Or alternately, a second completely different Elite bonus altogether.

2) Cryoblaster: Reduced damage to 1250 (was: 1600)
I don't see the reason behind this either. Before it was a 4 OP more expensive, rare weapon that was a bit more flux efficient than the Heavy Blaster (1.25 Flux/Damage for anything that is not stripped armor  versus 1.44 F/D for the HB) with the minor bonus effect of doing more damage to the enemy as their armor wore down. With the changes, it puts this well below the the HB in efficiency (1.6 vs. 1.44 for the HB)  and the "effect" is too rare to happen in my mind that it would make any difference. Combine that with the fact that this is a limited amount, "you might not get any at all or only one" kind of weapon and you have something that was alright if not a bit good to get, to something that is pretty much trash in my mind.

I do agree with Alex (and general consensus) that the damage reduction was necessary since Cryoblaster's hull damage output was rather extreme, but reducing only damage puts Cryoblaster's new efficiency (1.6) rather close to Mining Blaster (1.71) which is... not a great comparison for such a rare/OP-intensive weapon, even without considering how its higher OP cost effectively worsens flux inefficiency. The Cyroblaster could use a flux reduction of maybe 25-50 per shot, which would make it still less efficient than Heavy Blaster for off-damage types.

Also, consider that Cryoblaster is already being double-nerfed by the new reduction-over-500-damage skill, unlike Heavy Blaster/Plasma Cannon. Along the same vein, Mining Blaster can probably use a small flux reduction as well.
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JUDGE! slowpersun

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #273 on: November 12, 2021, 09:45:15 PM »

1) Commerce: reduced base income bonus to 25% (was: 50%)
Please, PLEASE tell me that this includes a shift from it being an industry to a structure. This nerf in combination of the already severe -3 stability, all to gain access to some income and a place to sell seems way WAY too much! What was the reasoning behind this? This is already considered one of, if not the worst industries in the game due to the current stats.
In my mind, I would have it so that it was +25%, a structure and at MOST -1 stability. Something that takes up such a precious slot should not be so punishing to the player.

I suspect at least part of the reason commentary regarding the change to the Commerce industry hasn't been debated as much here is because a similar discussion more or less came up organically on a general discussion thread that coincidentally dropped just before the patch notes dropped.  See the following:

As for commerce, have you missed the big fat "+50% money" modifier it slaps on your colony?
No, I didn't miss that, I had just assumed it was a placeholder for a better system to come later.  Seems a pretty lazy bonus to tack onto an entire industry slot, no?
Better than +1 stability it originally gave, at least for the player's colonies.

The main problems with Commerce today is...
1) Went from terrible (+1 stability) to must-have (+50% or more income), especially with items that boost income from Commerce more.

2) Kills stability (-3).  Really hurts some core worlds (those with both Free Port and Commerce), and player cannot fix those worlds he does not own.  Player needs two colony improvements to partially offset the stability tax (+2 vs. -3) from the Commerce industry tax for his worlds.  Player still wants 10 stability for fleet quality and size (to hopefully avoid babysitting his colonies personally).
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SCC

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #274 on: November 12, 2021, 11:31:16 PM »

Someone suggested disabled weapons still being able to fire at half rate or whatever. I think that would help a lot both for fighting tough ships and to make it suck less when your own weapons get disabled.

Engines could probably do with a similar thing - flamed out ships still having a few engines.
I suggested for elite IM effect that weapons and engine repairs should never stop, only maybe do so at half rate when attacked, to make it harder for weapons to go out from just fighting. EMP and damage spikes would still work.

This is already considered one of, if not the worst industries in the game due to the current stats.
If anything, I've seen most often people call it the best building and sometimes even mandatory. If it was called the worst, it's probably because of how obviously good it is, so much it's too good.

Amoebka

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #275 on: November 13, 2021, 04:00:51 AM »

2) Cryoblaster: Reduced damage to 1250 (was: 1600)
I don't see the reason behind this either. Before it was a 4 OP more expensive, rare weapon that was a bit more flux efficient than the Heavy Blaster (1.25 Flux/Damage for anything that is not stripped armor  versus 1.44 F/D for the HB) with the minor bonus effect of doing more damage to the enemy as their armor wore down. With the changes, it puts this well below the the HB in efficiency (1.6 vs. 1.44 for the HB)  and the "effect" is too rare to happen in my mind that it would make any difference. Combine that with the fact that this is a limited amount, "you might not get any at all or only one" kind of weapon and you have something that was alright if not a bit good to get, to something that is pretty much trash in my mind.

In my mind it was already the only omega weapon worth using, won't be after the nerf. Super-special limited edition endgame weapons are supposed to be gimmicky downgrades to market ones, I guess.
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Caymon Joestar

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #276 on: November 13, 2021, 04:09:42 AM »

So I've only read about 9 pages worth of posts but I'm surprised two changes didn't get more attention.
1) Commerce: reduced base income bonus to 25% (was: 50%)
Please, PLEASE tell me that this includes a shift from it being an industry to a structure. This nerf in combination of the already severe -3 stability, all to gain access to some income and a place to sell seems way WAY too much! What was the reasoning behind this? This is already considered one of, if not the worst industries in the game due to the current stats.
In my mind, I would have it so that it was +25%, a structure and at MOST -1 stability. Something that takes up such a precious slot should not be so punishing to the player.

2) Cryoblaster: Reduced damage to 1250 (was: 1600)
I don't see the reason behind this either. Before it was a 4 OP more expensive, rare weapon that was a bit more flux efficient than the Heavy Blaster (1.25 Flux/Damage for anything that is not stripped armor  versus 1.44 F/D for the HB) with the minor bonus effect of doing more damage to the enemy as their armor wore down. With the changes, it puts this well below the the HB in efficiency (1.6 vs. 1.44 for the HB)  and the "effect" is too rare to happen in my mind that it would make any difference. Combine that with the fact that this is a limited amount, "you might not get any at all or only one" kind of weapon and you have something that was alright if not a bit good to get, to something that is pretty much trash in my mind.

Are we playing the same game? In what universe is Commerce considered bad? Maybe back in 0.9.1 it was but in 0.9.5, It's one of the best buildings. It's hella easy to get stab back and throw in the industry's item and your colony is gonna be printing money.

2) Cryoblaster: Reduced damage to 1250 (was: 1600)
I don't see the reason behind this either. Before it was a 4 OP more expensive, rare weapon that was a bit more flux efficient than the Heavy Blaster (1.25 Flux/Damage for anything that is not stripped armor  versus 1.44 F/D for the HB) with the minor bonus effect of doing more damage to the enemy as their armor wore down. With the changes, it puts this well below the the HB in efficiency (1.6 vs. 1.44 for the HB)  and the "effect" is too rare to happen in my mind that it would make any difference. Combine that with the fact that this is a limited amount, "you might not get any at all or only one" kind of weapon and you have something that was alright if not a bit good to get, to something that is pretty much trash in my mind.

In my mind it was already the only omega weapon worth using, won't be after the nerf. Super-special limited edition endgame weapons are supposed to be gimmicky downgrades to market ones, I guess.

Minipulse? Rift Lance? Anti matter SRM? Cyroflamer? Disintegrator? Particle Driver? Cascade Beam? Rift Torpedo?

Are we just ignoring those Good Omega weapons?
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Amoebka

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #277 on: November 13, 2021, 04:16:43 AM »

Your definition of good seems to be unreasonably generous. All those weapons have glaring issues and are not worth using over standart human ones. The fact that they all have gimmicks AI is utterly incapable of using properly doesn't help. Have fun watching your ships dump all antimatter SRMs into fortress shields at the first opportunity.

Yes, the game doesn't crash to desktop when you fit one of those on your ship. By that definition they are usable.
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Grievous69

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #278 on: November 13, 2021, 04:24:09 AM »

Minipulse? Rift Lance? Anti matter SRM? Cyroflamer? Disintegrator? Particle Driver? Cascade Beam? Rift Torpedo?

Are we just ignoring those Good Omega weapons?
There's maybe 2 good weapons there, everything else is "oh cool, this has a neat effect / visuals" and then go back to using standard weapons. I agree that Omega weapons shouldn't be brokenly good so that they're always the best choice in every scenario but come on, so much are downright detrimental to your ships unless you pilot it yourself.
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SonnaBanana

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #279 on: November 13, 2021, 06:00:46 AM »

No mentions about the lack of Atropos buffs?
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Ruddygreat

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #280 on: November 13, 2021, 06:49:44 AM »

1) Commerce: reduced base income bonus to 25% (was: 50%)
Please, PLEASE tell me that this includes a shift from it being an industry to a structure. This nerf in combination of the already severe -3 stability, all to gain access to some income and a place to sell seems way WAY too much! What was the reasoning behind this? This is already considered one of, if not the worst industries in the game due to the current stats.
In my mind, I would have it so that it was +25%, a structure and at MOST -1 stability. Something that takes up such a precious slot should not be so punishing to the player.

commerce is far an away the best industry in the game, this nerf is deserved
being able to pull from 50% to 150% extra income out of nowhere is insane and actively removes choice (by being the best 4th industry pick a solid 90% of the time) from the already incredibly boring vanilla colony gameplay loop (seriously, you just sit on a box until you suddenly have more money than god)

Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #281 on: November 13, 2021, 06:56:34 AM »

So I've only read about 9 pages worth of posts but I'm surprised two changes didn't get more attention.
1) Commerce: reduced base income bonus to 25% (was: 50%)
Please, PLEASE tell me that this includes a shift from it being an industry to a structure. This nerf in combination of the already severe -3 stability, all to gain access to some income and a place to sell seems way WAY too much! What was the reasoning behind this? This is already considered one of, if not the worst industries in the game due to the current stats.
In my mind, I would have it so that it was +25%, a structure and at MOST -1 stability. Something that takes up such a precious slot should not be so punishing to the player.
I would not mind less income provided there are other tweaks (like less stability penalty).  If not, all this means is player needs to spend SP to improve it, then look for the Dealmaker item to crank it up high.  If player does not care about cells and H, the alpha core for more income.

If I had to choose a nerf, then colony improvement the improves stability instead so that the penalty is -2 instead of -3, and holosuite giving less income and less pather interest (+2 instead of +4).

Or... have the stability penalty vary by the bonus income given by Commerce, maybe -1 stability per +25% income on Commerce (although that is a bit on the punitive side if min-maxed).

Commerce costs a lot to build, and has upkeep, so I would not want to build it unless it will be on the colony a long time, and the colony makes a lot of money (or I killed all of the core worlds and need all the income multipliers I can get).  I tend to build commerce as my fourth industry, after I get everything I need and no longer need to pay hazard pay.  Commerce is part of the late-bloom power of colonies, not something to be built early.

+25% income with no other changes?  Yes, it seems severe, maybe too punishing for early use and only encourages player to hit peg-leg Wirt the historian for the Dealmaker items and grab every booster.

Quote
Minipulse? Rift Lance? Anti matter SRM? Cyroflamer? Disintegrator? Particle Driver? Cascade Beam? Rift Torpedo?

Are we just ignoring those Good Omega weapons?
Rift Lance is mediocre, inferior to Tachyon Lance except maybe at ranges where it is better to use plasma cannon.  If Rift Lance cost 20-22 OP and/or was more efficient than Tachyon Lance, it would be good.  As it is, it is more of a flux hog than lance and costs more OP, all for a weapon that might do a bit more damage up close.  Alex mentioned he wanted a weapon that gets better at close range, but it is beyond me why he chose to put it on a tachyon lance clone - a sniper weapon!

After experimenting with it, I would never use it if I can use tachyon lance and/or plasma cannon instead because both weapons are better in any case.  A shame because the weapon is flashy.

No mentions about the lack of Atropos buffs?
They were okay when they did 1200 damage, but (and this is a guess) because of Daggers and Tridents that use it and Atropos being too strong for them, the damage is lower and they feel too weak.  It does not help that they are short-ranged and cannot be used point-blank, which gives them an annoyingly narrow effective range for lackluster performance.  I rarely use Atropos.

commerce is far an away the best industry in the game, this nerf is deserved
being able to pull from 50% to 150% extra income out of nowhere is insane and actively removes choice (by being the best 4th industry pick a solid 90% of the time) from the already incredibly boring vanilla colony gameplay loop (seriously, you just sit on a box until you suddenly have more money than god)
I rather see the +100% bonus from other effects tweaked and not the base effect.  +25% instead of +50% is a big deal.  +125% instead of +150%?  Not so much.  Rather see the range tightened, not screw over those limited to the stock industry.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2021, 06:59:29 AM by Megas »
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IonDragonX

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #282 on: November 13, 2021, 09:06:32 AM »

  • New industry skill, personal: Ordnance Expertise
    • +2 flux dissipation per ordnance point spent on weapons
    • Elite: +20 flux capacity per ordnance point spent on weapons
You're joking?! Right?! This is a typo??
Uran92 also agrees with me here...
Unless, this doesn't affect the fleet but only the piloted ship? Its important to say which it is.
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SCC

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #283 on: November 13, 2021, 09:23:13 AM »

  • New industry skill, personal: Ordnance Expertise
    • +2 flux dissipation per ordnance point spent on weapons
    • Elite: +20 flux capacity per ordnance point spent on weapons
You're joking?! Right?! This is a typo??
Uran92 also agrees with me here...
Unless, this doesn't affect the fleet but only the piloted ship? Its important to say which it is.
Dunno man. Hard to tell.

Thaago

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #284 on: November 13, 2021, 10:09:42 AM »

My 2 cents on a few raised points:
Commerce was the best industry slot for making money by a factor of 2.5 or more, but it doesn't supply any goods for reducing maintenance and has that stability penalty. I'm not sure if 25% is too harsh or not, it depends on how the item and upgrades are changed as well.

Atropos is a sidegrade to the harpoon but a useful one: it does slightly less theoretical damage per magazine (2000 vs 2250) in a shorter time and more reliably, with better tracking, slightly faster speed, higher projectile hitpoints, and better penetration value. Its main downside is being shorter ranged so you can't stack backline ships' Atropos from 2000 units away together, which is a big factor, but for brawlers its a superior missile (if you want to use missiles and not reapers).
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