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[Megas]

Perhaps i overvalue the QOL and repairs, but to me the d mod repairs along with how easy it is to salvage ships will net you overall more combat power vs dedicated combat skills. Automated ships is likely equally as good, simply because the radiant is absurdly strong. In the current build even with AI mistakes etc, you still almost never actually lose a ship, especially because any time you get intercepted and think you cant reasonably win, you just press your 1 sp get out of jail button. Even if you lose a ship, you likely already have something to replace it anyways. IMO, just mothballing a ship as it repairs as you fly around and do everything else seems way to easy, id like to see a middle ground between this and the absurd credit cost of normal restoration.

In early 0.9, when there was Loadout Design 3 and no s-mods, the middle ground was simply building a new ship with Orbital Works at relatively cheap credit cost, but that does not work now in 0.95 because the new ship does not have the s-mods the old ship had.  If you rebuild the ship (or buy a new one from the core worlds), you pay story points to replace the s-mods to old ship had.  If you restore the ship, you keep the s-mods and remove the d-mods, but you pay way too much money to do it.  That leaves Field Repairs, but it takes two months to remove a d-mod.  That is slow when your fleet (and any new enemy ships you loot) have multiple d-mods each.  Still, Field Repairs is the only cheap option we have.

Alex wrote that in the next release, scuttling ships with s-mods you paid story points to install (with less than full bonus xp) will be refunded with bonus xp, so maybe rebuilding new ships with Orbital Works will be a viable option again, provided the fleet is made out of ships player can build (and the player is a combat junkie to farm bonus xp fast enough).

Perhaps i overvalue the QOL and repairs, but to me the d mod repairs along with how easy it is to salvage ships will net you overall more combat power vs dedicated combat skills.

There is a trope for that:  Boring but Practical.

People like to maximize combat power (stacking as many combat skills as possible), or take flashy special abilities or powers (something like the top-tier tech skills).  Recovery skills do not do any of that, but it improves quality-of-life when things go wrong - when and not if.  In theory, having too much combat power might prevent the player from losing ships, but the AI is too stupid not to die at times, and player will not become so strong that he can solo everything (with possible exception of Doom or Ziggurat with the right skills).

Also, easy recovery and ship acquisition does not raise maximum combat power (and it is not flashy or pretty), but it makes things much easier to gather some power to get even with the enemy after the player wipes and does not reload (or gets sick of reloading too much for the flawless win combat rewards tend to be balanced towards).

* * *

Moving on...

Lowering the range where they split and increasing the spread of the pellets would be a step in the right direction I think.

This was tried in the second version of the sabot years ago, and enemy ships dropped shields and armor tanked about half of the sabot (with the rest completely missing off to the side) for minimal damage every time, making the Sabot useless except against an incompetent playership.

First and third versions was a single 750 slug which was good against everything.  Who cares about half damage (against armor) when it still put a big hole in armor and an even bigger hole in hull, and it was more reliable than a Harpoon (because PD could not stop second stage).

The current iteration is a decent compromise.  It is not too great against armor, but it is still a decent hull crusher and better against shields.

* * *

(Incidentally, Nexerelin fixes Sindria's High Command being an absurd fuel hog by putting a gamma core on it. Although why do Military Base and HC have such high resource demand (size+2 and +3 respectively), anyway?)

I tried to build colonies that would not rely on nanoforge and synchrotron, but the requirements of Military Base make that impossible.  There may be one other building that also has crazy high supply and/or fuel requirements, I guess either Megaport or Waystation.  Player must have synchrotron and nanoforge (ideally pristine) to be self-sufficient.

[Warruk]

As a mostly low-tech player, very glad to see the Legion and Dominator both get some buffs.  I was going to write a longer post on the Dominator, as it's been my main ship to pilot for most of my time playing and I have some thoughts, but I didn't do so in time to beat all this patch.

All the buffs it gets are great, but I don't normally have issues with the Dominator on OP, dissipation, or longevity.  The fact that the two large ballistic weapon slots are hardpoints and spaced widely, coupled with its low maneuverability, really defines the ship and provides some challenges in how to outfit it and use it.  I found that for normal enemies all the way through high level bounties, it was a good ship and grew well along with the rest of the fleet.  It's usefulness fell off pretty hard with [Redacted], though, and I think point out two issues that plague the ship most.

First, it normally shines when duking it out with capitals.  The Dominator can't rotate quickly and its main damage dealers (missiles and large ballistics) are hardpoints, so something that is large or moves slowly will stay in its crosshairs.  It can't win a solo flux war with a capital, but it can with some help, and then pound in some damage as the ship tries to retreat.  Against a Radiant, though, the Dominator can not take much of the damage to shields, and has to armor tank pretty quickly.  That's fine, it's made for that, but its main weapons are routinely knocked out of commission as it does that, so then it can't fight back.  I think this is a general weakness of armor tanking vs. shield tanking, but I suspect the Dominator struggles with that more than a Legion or Onslaught as its main weapons are all along its front and located close together.  When fighting a Radiant, I find my normal role is to take that damage and let the other ships take the Radiant down.  It works, but not a lot of enjoyment in it.  What fun is it to get hammered on with no chance of launching a reaper (or three!) in something's face when it gets fluxed out?

Second, the Dominator does not excel close-in fighting with even semi-agile opponents, which the [Redacted] very much try to utilize (specifically, groups of Fulgents/Glimmers). Their typical style is to pelt you from a few angles, swooping into and out of range as they take shield damage.  I can pressure one of their shields with the turreted mediums (H Needlers) and sabots, but it's tough to convert that pressure to hull damage as I normally can't spin fast enough to use the larges to hit them.  Also, even if I can turn fast enough to hit that weakened ship, the close range will make only one of the two large hardpoints usable...the other is firing into space.  Again, I can tie up a decent number of enemies for a while, enough time for the rest of the fleet take things down, but I take damage and don't do much in return. 

I'd humbly request two things.  First, some kind of way to make the impact of damage to weapons less brutal.  Losing most of your DPS in a few moments is tough to plan around, and not much fun for a low-tech fleet relying on armor tanking.  Perhaps a Hullmod where instead of a weapon becoming unusable when it runs out of HP, it just reduces to 50% of normal rate of fire?  Or maybe a 50% chance to become unusable instead of 100% when it runs out of HP? 

Second, I really think the ship needs some way to deal damage at brawler range, either by converting the fixed missiles and LB to turrets (even a small amount of movement would provide a lot of good), or perhaps with another turreted medium ballistic (with no additional dissipation to power it) if the fixed nature of the craft is an important point.  With its crazy-low speed and maneuvering, the Dominator cannot dictate terms for exchanges...it's got to have a way to be effective at multiple ranges.  It's too easy to just rush it down and make the LB's and missiles semi-useless, and the two mediums just are not enough.  The Enforcer has more than that. 

[Amazigh]

Beyond that, Sabots still only do mostly temporary damage, and e.g. removing the EMP component would make it possible to make firing them mostly a waste by just turning shields off.

HE missiles can just as easily be wasted into PD or shields. I think that sabots are the outlier in that they are very difficult to waste.

I completely agree with inrinsic here, firing almost any HE missile (besides reapers) into shields has barely any effect unless you shoot a lot of missiles, or you're shooting a frigate. On the other hand, sabots either raise flux by a large margin, or emp all the weapons, because they are impossible to shoot down! The main annoying part of sabots is that they hit the ship they are fired at 90% of the time! Lowering the range where they split and increasing the spread of the pellets would be a step in the right direction I think.

I had a feeling someone would mention this

The thing is, firing HE missiles like this into shields or PD is a piloting error. Except for when it's not, i.e. when you're trying to achieve an overload by forcing shields to stay up, let's say. And in that scenario, maybe they'll be shot down (though Sabots also face that possibility vs at least *some* PD), but it's not as trivial to nullify as it with Sabots.

With Sabots, a primary use case is firing it into the shields of a relatively fresh, and almost certainly not overloaded, opponent. If they can be almost completely neutralized in that case by simply turning the shields off, that's a much, much different situation from that which HE missiles face.

HE, you're either firing enough to overwhelm PD with acceptable missile losses, or you're firing at an overloaded/venting target. Or you messed up. With Sabots, instead of "you messed up" it'd very often just be "opponent right-clicked when you were hoping they wouldn't". There'd be some window of opportunity to use Sabots, still - paired with HE damage to keep shields up, perhaps? But it feels like it would be quite narrow. On the other hand, with EMP damage, they generate *some* kind of opening regardless.

The thing that makes sabots so good (imo) is how unlike HE missiles, if you have no chance to dodge or intercept the shot, then there is no "good" option on how to take the hit.
Taking it on shield will build up a bunch of flux, and taking it on armour will still cause a significant EMP impact that will likely disable something.

Speaking from personal experience, if it's not enough to overload me, I will in 95% of instances prefer to take a Sabot on shields rather than hull, because that sudden spike of EMP will more than likely disable a not insignificant portion of my weapons.
The sudden loss of player agency from having a bunch if weapons disabled is not fun and in my opinion is worse (both in feel and practical terms) than having to cope with a higher flux level.

[SonnaBanana]

At the minimum, there should be another fleetwide carrier/fighter skill
Between officers/piloted skills and fleetwide skills, there are just too many ways to boost weapons/officered ships and not enough for fighters/unofficial carriers.

[Alex]

Spoiler

As a mostly low-tech player, very glad to see the Legion and Dominator both get some buffs.  I was going to write a longer post on the Dominator, as it's been my main ship to pilot for most of my time playing and I have some thoughts, but I didn't do so in time to beat all this patch.

All the buffs it gets are great, but I don't normally have issues with the Dominator on OP, dissipation, or longevity.  The fact that the two large ballistic weapon slots are hardpoints and spaced widely, coupled with its low maneuverability, really defines the ship and provides some challenges in how to outfit it and use it.  I found that for normal enemies all the way through high level bounties, it was a good ship and grew well along with the rest of the fleet.  It's usefulness fell off pretty hard with [Redacted], though, and I think point out two issues that plague the ship most.

First, it normally shines when duking it out with capitals.  The Dominator can't rotate quickly and its main damage dealers (missiles and large ballistics) are hardpoints, so something that is large or moves slowly will stay in its crosshairs.  It can't win a solo flux war with a capital, but it can with some help, and then pound in some damage as the ship tries to retreat.  Against a Radiant, though, the Dominator can not take much of the damage to shields, and has to armor tank pretty quickly.  That's fine, it's made for that, but its main weapons are routinely knocked out of commission as it does that, so then it can't fight back.  I think this is a general weakness of armor tanking vs. shield tanking, but I suspect the Dominator struggles with that more than a Legion or Onslaught as its main weapons are all along its front and located close together.  When fighting a Radiant, I find my normal role is to take that damage and let the other ships take the Radiant down.  It works, but not a lot of enjoyment in it.  What fun is it to get hammered on with no chance of launching a reaper (or three!) in something's face when it gets fluxed out?

Second, the Dominator does not excel close-in fighting with even semi-agile opponents, which the [Redacted] very much try to utilize (specifically, groups of Fulgents/Glimmers). Their typical style is to pelt you from a few angles, swooping into and out of range as they take shield damage.  I can pressure one of their shields with the turreted mediums (H Needlers) and sabots, but it's tough to convert that pressure to hull damage as I normally can't spin fast enough to use the larges to hit them.  Also, even if I can turn fast enough to hit that weakened ship, the close range will make only one of the two large hardpoints usable...the other is firing into space.  Again, I can tie up a decent number of enemies for a while, enough time for the rest of the fleet take things down, but I take damage and don't do much in return. 

I'd humbly request two things.  First, some kind of way to make the impact of damage to weapons less brutal.  Losing most of your DPS in a few moments is tough to plan around, and not much fun for a low-tech fleet relying on armor tanking.  Perhaps a Hullmod where instead of a weapon becoming unusable when it runs out of HP, it just reduces to 50% of normal rate of fire?  Or maybe a 50% chance to become unusable instead of 100% when it runs out of HP? 

Second, I really think the ship needs some way to deal damage at brawler range, either by converting the fixed missiles and LB to turrets (even a small amount of movement would provide a lot of good), or perhaps with another turreted medium ballistic (with no additional dissipation to power it) if the fixed nature of the craft is an important point.  With its crazy-low speed and maneuvering, the Dominator cannot dictate terms for exchanges...it's got to have a way to be effective at multiple ranges.  It's too easy to just rush it down and make the LB's and missiles semi-useless, and the two mediums just are not enough.  The Enforcer has more than that.

[close]

I appreciate the detailed write-up! Hmm. Impact Mitigation, Damage Control, and Automated Repair Unit (and Armored Weapon Mounts!) are all intended means to counteract weapons getting disabled, and to bring them back online faster. Resistant Flux Conduits also help reduce EMP damage taken. In the next release, Polarized Armor will also help by reducing EMP damage by up to 50% when flux levels are high, and having a bit more ordnance points will let you take advantage of more of the other options, too. It feels like there is a large number of options here, and they'll be broadened somewhat. You're right that due to how the ship is, its weapons are more exposed (though the larges can actually avoid a lot of fire due to being offset, it's really the medium missiles that suffer the brunt), but I think that's just the breaks for this specific ship.

For engagement range, the changes to Burn Drive should help it be able to dictate range more. But the trouble it has with faster attackers that get close is very much part of its intended design, a weakness that's meant to be compensated for with allies on its flanks.

I think if it ends up brawling with a Radiant... you just kind of have to expect that it'll have some trouble. That *is* a battleship, after all! But, just trying it for a bit now, with a focus on using these options, its weapons get remarkably resilient.

The thing that makes sabots so good (imo) is how unlike HE missiles, if you have no chance to dodge or intercept the shot, then there is no "good" option on how to take the hit.
Taking it on shield will build up a bunch of flux, and taking it on armour will still cause a significant EMP impact that will likely disable something.

Speaking from personal experience, if it's not enough to overload me, I will in 95% of instances prefer to take a Sabot on shields rather than hull, because that sudden spike of EMP will more than likely disable a not insignificant portion of my weapons.
The sudden loss of player agency from having a bunch if weapons disabled is not fun and in my opinion is worse (both in feel and practical terms) than having to cope with a higher flux level.

That's fair. But it's also not permanent damage you've taken, and the opposing ship expended a limited resource. And you do have options - either the one you describe, or indeed taking the hit on armor and backing off if stuff gets disabled. The options aren't amazing, but again, the downsides are temporary unless the other side can follow through.

That said, though, if someone has a loadout in mind that demonstrates how the Sabot is much too strong that isn't a Falcon (P) (or, I suppose, a Gryphon, though that's a different ball of wax), then I'd love to have a closer look!

[Wyvern]

Personally, I don't think that sabots need any adjustments.

What I would like to see, though, is better endurance from harpoon pods. Three shots is just... well. That's what you get for spending a small slot on harpoons. I actually liked harpoon pods better at two missiles per salvo. If they're not going to go back to that... give them a few more missiles, please? >.>

[Histidine]

I don't think Sabot is necessarily mega OP or anything. It's just the default choice because it's always useful and "always works" (where a Harpoon, the other general purpose missile, is likely to get wasted by PD, miss its target, or hit a shield without significant flux increase). That latter consideration is especially important when a rack costs 4 OP for only three shots.

If I'm not already in the thick of things, sabots on armor feels like an acceptable choice for me (possibly because I run Resistant Flux Conduits on most things), it's not pleasant but you can usually afford to back away and/or hide behind your shield for a bit while the weapons repair.

Personally, I don't think that sabots need any adjustments.

What I would like to see, though, is better endurance from harpoon pods. Three shots is just... well. That's what you get for spending a small slot on harpoons. I actually liked harpoon pods better at two missiles per salvo. If they're not going to go back to that... give them a few more missiles, please? >.>

I wouldn't mind the trade of Harpoon pods having a smaller throw (three missiles per volley instead of four) in exchange for a significantly deeper magazine. Would make them last longer while also being less 'force-feed an overloaded target 12 Harpoons at once and make it explode'.

[TaLaR]

Simplest 'counter' to Sabot is just back off a bit. 1st stage is very slow and doesn't inherit launcher's speed. Of course, if the other ship just tried to get a breather, they've got what they wanted.

But as offensive weapon Sabots are only useful because AI is not smart enough to back off when it should, or when you have decisive speed advantage to launch them close enough that backing off is impossible.

[Undead]

"Kite (S) now has 30 ordnance points"

Operations center kite is on the menu, boys!

[SCC]

The fact that the two large ballistic weapon slots are hardpoints and spaced widely, coupled with its low maneuverability, really defines the ship and provides some challenges in how to outfit it and use it.

Dominator is designed around overwhelming frontal firepower that isn't actually overwhelming enough to justify the frontal focus. As an AI ship, it's more often a time waster than anything, and as a player ship, it's too cumbersome to bother. Just use a Champion that not only is more manoeuvrable, its design is also less dependent on its mobility in the first place.

For engagement range, the changes to Burn Drive should help it be able to dictate range more. But the trouble it has with faster attackers that get close is very much part of its intended design, a weakness that's meant to be compensated for with allies on its flanks.

Majority of the time it's keeping the enemy at bay that's the issue, not closing in, though burn drive not being a trap is a positive change anyway.

[BreenBB]

About modding suggestions, I think good idea is expand .skin files, add ability to set style for ship itself, and ability to override stats like Flux Vents\Cap, HP, armour and speed. Also I'd like to have ability to change ship OPs through hullmod too.

[bobucles]

Should Cybernetic Augmentation give bonuses to raids/marines?

Should it?

Yes 
No need to be major bonuses

Cybernetics are rarely used on healthy humans, but make a great way to extend the careers of casualties. It may be cool to have a simple reduction in the number of marines lost in raids. Tactical drills could lose the casualty bonus, and instead get a marine XP buff (which makes more sense for intense training imo).

[BaBosa]

My thoughts on Hyperion and it’s system, giving it a single charge with a long recharge and the assumption that the player or officer will have system expertise could balance it. That’ll just let it do hit and runs which is a core part of the ship but the delay time to regain two charges should reduce the *** to acceptable amounts. Could make it so that 0flux bonus increases recharge rate by 3-4x so that SO builds still get to use just as much teleportation.
Trying to use flux to balance hasn’t worked well.
Giving it a bunch of charges (like 8?) but no recharge as they would force players/officers to be prudent but still allow for some fun insanity.
Another possibility is to give it a long wind up time during which shields are turned off. That would let it have no cool-down or charges. Though this way would make it tactically similar to burn drive.

[Warruk]

Spoiler

As a mostly low-tech player, very glad to see the Legion and Dominator both get some buffs.  I was going to write a longer post on the Dominator, as it's been my main ship to pilot for most of my time playing and I have some thoughts, but I didn't do so in time to beat all this patch.

All the buffs it gets are great, but I don't normally have issues with the Dominator on OP, dissipation, or longevity.  The fact that the two large ballistic weapon slots are hardpoints and spaced widely, coupled with its low maneuverability, really defines the ship and provides some challenges in how to outfit it and use it.  I found that for normal enemies all the way through high level bounties, it was a good ship and grew well along with the rest of the fleet.  It's usefulness fell off pretty hard with [Redacted], though, and I think point out two issues that plague the ship most.

First, it normally shines when duking it out with capitals.  The Dominator can't rotate quickly and its main damage dealers (missiles and large ballistics) are hardpoints, so something that is large or moves slowly will stay in its crosshairs.  It can't win a solo flux war with a capital, but it can with some help, and then pound in some damage as the ship tries to retreat.  Against a Radiant, though, the Dominator can not take much of the damage to shields, and has to armor tank pretty quickly.  That's fine, it's made for that, but its main weapons are routinely knocked out of commission as it does that, so then it can't fight back.  I think this is a general weakness of armor tanking vs. shield tanking, but I suspect the Dominator struggles with that more than a Legion or Onslaught as its main weapons are all along its front and located close together.  When fighting a Radiant, I find my normal role is to take that damage and let the other ships take the Radiant down.  It works, but not a lot of enjoyment in it.  What fun is it to get hammered on with no chance of launching a reaper (or three!) in something's face when it gets fluxed out?

Second, the Dominator does not excel close-in fighting with even semi-agile opponents, which the [Redacted] very much try to utilize (specifically, groups of Fulgents/Glimmers). Their typical style is to pelt you from a few angles, swooping into and out of range as they take shield damage.  I can pressure one of their shields with the turreted mediums (H Needlers) and sabots, but it's tough to convert that pressure to hull damage as I normally can't spin fast enough to use the larges to hit them.  Also, even if I can turn fast enough to hit that weakened ship, the close range will make only one of the two large hardpoints usable...the other is firing into space.  Again, I can tie up a decent number of enemies for a while, enough time for the rest of the fleet take things down, but I take damage and don't do much in return. 

I'd humbly request two things.  First, some kind of way to make the impact of damage to weapons less brutal.  Losing most of your DPS in a few moments is tough to plan around, and not much fun for a low-tech fleet relying on armor tanking.  Perhaps a Hullmod where instead of a weapon becoming unusable when it runs out of HP, it just reduces to 50% of normal rate of fire?  Or maybe a 50% chance to become unusable instead of 100% when it runs out of HP? 

Second, I really think the ship needs some way to deal damage at brawler range, either by converting the fixed missiles and LB to turrets (even a small amount of movement would provide a lot of good), or perhaps with another turreted medium ballistic (with no additional dissipation to power it) if the fixed nature of the craft is an important point.  With its crazy-low speed and maneuvering, the Dominator cannot dictate terms for exchanges...it's got to have a way to be effective at multiple ranges.  It's too easy to just rush it down and make the LB's and missiles semi-useless, and the two mediums just are not enough.  The Enforcer has more than that.

[close]

I appreciate the detailed write-up! Hmm. Impact Mitigation, Damage Control, and Automated Repair Unit (and Armored Weapon Mounts!) are all intended means to counteract weapons getting disabled, and to bring them back online faster. Resistant Flux Conduits also help reduce EMP damage taken. In the next release, Polarized Armor will also help by reducing EMP damage by up to 50% when flux levels are high, and having a bit more ordnance points will let you take advantage of more of the other options, too. It feels like there is a large number of options here, and they'll be broadened somewhat. You're right that due to how the ship is, its weapons are more exposed (though the larges can actually avoid a lot of fire due to being offset, it's really the medium missiles that suffer the brunt), but I think that's just the breaks for this specific ship.

For engagement range, the changes to Burn Drive should help it be able to dictate range more. But the trouble it has with faster attackers that get close is very much part of its intended design, a weakness that's meant to be compensated for with allies on its flanks.

I think if it ends up brawling with a Radiant... you just kind of have to expect that it'll have some trouble. That *is* a battleship, after all! But, just trying it for a bit now, with a focus on using these options, its weapons get remarkably resilient.

Sorry about the wall of text, it swear it didn't appear as long when I wrote it. 

I currently use IM, DC, and armored mounts (along with solar shielding), so I'm trying to keep the guns firing with the tools that are available.  My experience has not been the same as what you are describing, and I do find it's difficult to keep the mounts working well (in particular the missiles which often have only a limited time to use).  I appreciate you trying it out.

To be clear on the close range weakness, my issue isn't that close-range flanking won't be painful...it is and that feels fair.  It's that the fixed nature of the weapons really limits the damage you can deal back in those cases.  That's true even if you have a partner to avoid flanking; if your target moves laterally at close range, it will really reduce your effectiveness.  The best counterexample is the Legion XIV, which I found to be surprisingly strong in my LT fleet.  With 5 turreted heavy needlers and two hurricanes, it can flux out attackers from a number of angles and then pursue them with missiles, all while being slower than the Dom. 

Related to the various comments on Radiants and close attackers, I think you are hinting at what I see as the Dom's identity crisis.  Against those end-game enemies, what is it supposed to be good at?  Not really tackling a Radiant when it is the target, and not attacking faster-moving enemies that close distance.  I find it's just got a small list of cases where it works well against Redacted.  It's a shame, as it's a pretty decent ship against non-Redacted fleets that respect range a little more, but struggles with the transition to the major leagues. 

[Thaago]

I find Dominators to be slightly underperforming, but not extremely, so I'm happy to see buffs but I'm also glad they aren't too large. I find them to perform best vs non-mobility destroyers, cruisers, and capitals due to the issues that others have pointed out, but its DP efficient in that role. Its weak against extremely mobile small ships that hug it close, which wouldn't be so much of a problem except thats the exact play style of the boss ships that are also very strong stat wise.

One thing I like about them is that I can really pack on ranged kinetic firepower compared to other ships: Mk IX's in the hardpoints are really good because being hardpoints their recoil is reduced. A mostly kinetic (say 2x Mk IX, 1 HVD 1 Mauler, maybe 2 railguns to support the HVD/Mauler combo in close range vs frigates) dominator is quite good vs all Remnants except their frigates. They do lose vs Radiants 1v1, but thats 25 DP going up against 60 with an alpha core, so its not really a sign of a bad ship, just an outmatched one.