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Author Topic: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 250509 times)

SafariJohn

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #765 on: December 17, 2021, 07:59:29 PM »

The exact amount of flagship skills you can get doesn't really matter - the point remains that it is way better than simply +1 officer.
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SonnaBanana

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #766 on: December 17, 2021, 08:04:38 PM »

https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=23146.msg347613#msg347613
Support Doctrine's DP reduction doesn't apply to ships with Neural Interface/Integrator, this is intentional
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Thaago

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #767 on: December 17, 2021, 09:59:14 PM »

You really, really underestimate how important officers are. Support Doctrine only gives the 3 least important skills to ships. It's much better to just field larger ships and fill all your DP with officered ships. Support doctrine is only good for full degen spam strategies, in which case you will combine it with Derelict Ops and enjoy your 50% discount on fighter bays and missile slots.

Helmsmanship: Not a high power skill, but useful for ships that need to turn to stay on target or have high base speed. With Combat endurance, the total bonus comes to +15%. For an Omen (which is kind of my standard escort frigate and a good use case for the skill) that comes to 23 extra speed, almost the same as unstable injector only without the downside and it stacks.

Combat Endurance: +15% CR is an excellent bonus (and yes this makes the leadership that gives +15% to the whole fleet one of if not the best skill in the whole game). 5% offense, defense, speed, better autofire accuracy (surprisingly important), 5% faster refit times for carriers, and deploying more. Then +60s peak performance time for frigates/destroyers and -25% tickdown rate means you can run them in endgame battles. Almost like Hardened Subsystems that stacks (less PPT, same tickdown). (Also its aesthetically pleasing for ships to be at 100% CR.)

Damage Control: Not a high power skill, but useful because these ships are expendable and expected to be outmatched if they get focused. The -25% hull damage that stacks with the -5% damage overall stacks for 40% more hull... like reinforced bulkheads. The 50% faster repairs is quite good because it keeps these ships firing and flying - they are probably meant to be either extra support firepower or distractions, and they can't do that role without engines/guns - and is like automated repair unit. The -50% crew casualties is mostly a ribbon, but its like blast doors. So this skill gives Reinforced Bulkheads, Blast Doors, and Automated Repair Unit for free (and stacking) to every unofficered ship.

So while none of these bonuses are amazing on their own, I don't think its right to discount them entirely.

Oh and -20% deployment costs too!
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SCC

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #768 on: December 17, 2021, 10:17:50 PM »

In previous release, I ran out of DP sooner, than out of officered ships when fighting Remnants. I suspect it's going to be similar in this patch, but I can't say for sure. Maybe SD is meant to be stacked with Derelict Operations and Electronic Warfare?

Amoebka

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #769 on: December 17, 2021, 10:27:13 PM »

The issue is that these skills almost always go on frigates/destroyers (cruisers and capitals get your officers if you aren't crazy).

Hull damage reduction and faster weapon repairs don't do much on ships that evaporate in a second once the shield is down. They only become meaningful on bigger ships, preferably when stacked with other defensive boosters, like heavy armor, actual reinforced bulkheads, or officer skills.

Similarly, speed is of less value when the ship is already faster than everyone except frigates. +10% only really matters on speed 60-70 ships, in my experience. So, useful for some destroyers, but not for the kind of stuff that I want to spam.

Combat Endurance is a weird one. It's definitely good on frigates and destroyers, but at the same time it doesn't do enough by itself. Just the skill is too little, the skill with hardened subsystems is overkill.

I feel like it's one of those things that are good on paper, but in reality there are a lot of small annoying flaws that make it impractical.
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DaShiv

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #770 on: December 17, 2021, 10:35:03 PM »

Since there are no longer officer skills for carriers anyway, Support Doctrine + Derelict Operations is an effective way to spam a lot of fighter bays very cheaply to achieve critical mass with fighters. And free Combat Endurance stacked with Crew Training means that all of those fighters have maxed 100% CR. This is the new Drover spam strategy (except not with Drovers anymore obviously).
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Lucky33

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #771 on: December 17, 2021, 10:40:12 PM »

I'm not sure where 48 is coming from.  If I have 240 points, and my ships go from costing 20 to 16 (20*0.8 ), I go from 12 to 15 ships on the field.  15*20 = 300.  So I'm curious, is it necessary for a player to get a full +60 DP bonus, for the skill to be worth a skill point?  Having not played around with uneven deployments all that much, I'm not actually sure.  It seems really strong to me though.

Is being able to deploy, say, 255 (+15 DP) already a sufficient benefit for a tier 5?  +15 would be like a straight up 6% fleet strength buff, plus additional skills on more ships.   A 25% overall fleet strength buff 60/240) for 1 skill point (even as a tier 5) sounds like too much.  I don't think any of the other tier 5s really come close to that, do they?

As a more concrete example, I could imagine an 8 officer build (with the +1 to officer level skill) running 9 Furies (8+player), for 180 DP, then still having 60 DP more for frigates without officers.  That would be an example of Thaago's "wide" build.   I feel going from 7 Scarab/Tempests to 10 is a non-trivial bump, plus also adding peak performance and speed to each of those frigates is a non-trivial bonus.  All it takes is a little bit of out numbering for the AI the start having problems with being able to back off and vent.

How much a fleet multiplier would one expect from a tier 5 skill, and how does that compare to the currently existing ones?  Neural Link is like +1 officer.  That's maybe a 12% increase in officered ships, which doesn't quite translate to raw fleet power?  Automated ships perhaps gets you a 60 DP ship really worth, say, 75?  A Radiant certainly isn't worth 100 DP, for example.  Best of the Best is perhaps an 8% OP buff (imagine 315 OP capital, getting two s-mods worth 30, then another worth 30, so 30/375 = 0.08), which doesn't equate to a raw 25% stronger fleet.  Hull Restoration is +10 to +15% CR, so a +5% multiplier perhaps? Derelict operations is a bit harder to estimate since you need to include a bunch of d-mods decreasing individual ship effectiveness.

It is coming from the other side of how you can view this problem. It is 20 percent of the full deployment. Obviously one can count the points gained just as you did. The problem is what you have to lose for that. Because there is no straightforward fleet buff unless you have no officers to field.

You are not really limited by the number of the officers. You have 10 of your own, mercs and AI cores. In your case it will be 7 Scarabs with officers of up to lvl6 and fleetwide officer-only bonuses against 10 ships with the fixed set of three skills. This is the actual trade-off and not some "free ships".

I expect a clear bonus. Even Derelict Operations doesn't require you to have combat level d-mods to gain the deployment point reduction. And even with them there is a room for certain combos like Degraded Shields - Shield Shunt what provide a win-win solution.
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Amoebka

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #772 on: December 17, 2021, 10:40:21 PM »

Yeah, I did the support + derelict Mora spam. It's "good", but not at all satisfying to play. Pure cheese strat.
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SonnaBanana

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #773 on: December 17, 2021, 10:44:36 PM »

Support Doctrine does synergize well... with Wolfpack Tactics  :P

On a more serious note, I'd like to hear your opinion if 8 skillpoints (5 in tech, 3 in combat) is considered too costly for one additional non-automated ship with the performance of a level 5 officer.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2021, 10:53:23 PM by SonnaBanana »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #774 on: December 17, 2021, 10:52:58 PM »

Yeah, you're definitely not supposed to take support doctrine with the +2 officers skill when you're putting your officers in capital ships. Clearly you will not get much value out of it in that case.

You should probably take the +1 officer skill +1 elite skill option, and then focus small ships with wolf pack tactics. Something like use your officers for 1 or 2 capitals, a few light cruisers and a bunch of scarabs, and then have a bunch of unofficered frigates (omens, tempests, scarabs) to use up the remaining DP.

Theoretically, you could use support doctrine to get combat endurance on remnant ships if you didn't use cores too. You could spam like 4-5 decent CR radiants :P.
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Amoebka

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #775 on: December 17, 2021, 10:59:55 PM »

Remnant ships aren't really that good. AI officers are their only selling point.
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Arthur Revan

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #776 on: December 17, 2021, 11:02:17 PM »

Hey Alex, love the game, a true spiritual successor to "Space Rangers".
I have 1 feedback and 1 suggestion:

"Remote Survey" is too high on the skill tree.

* It's 1 of 3 unlocked skills, and while the first 2 can be received through campaign or "Navigation" and "Sensors", which are both level 1 skills, the "Rem. Survey" is locked behind 3 points.

* I think it should be part of sensors or the new level 1 skill "Survey".

* It also doesn't fit logically. Why the ability to make supplies from junk ( "Makeshift Equipment" ) is required to control remote probes and getting info from scanners,
   because that what remote serve is basically - the atmospheric analysis.

* "Remote Survey" is also only useful as the time-saver, it doesn't produce data or anything of value to justify spending 3 points.


The high cost bothers me this much, because I mostly play as an Admiral, meaning I dump almost all points into the "Leadership".
But with a new skill system that means 8 points to "Leadership", 2 points to "Tech" for "Navigation" and "Sensors", 3 points to "Industry" for "Remote Survey",
and that leaves me with only 2 points to "Combat".

That makes me absolutely useless in battle compared to combat-focused officers.

So this is my suggestion: :)
https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=23300.0
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SCC

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #777 on: December 17, 2021, 11:03:11 PM »

Support Doctrine does synergize well... with Wolfpack Tactics  :P
Doesn't WT require an officer in the ship for bonuses to apply?

Hiruma Kai

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #778 on: December 17, 2021, 11:03:32 PM »

The exact amount of flagship skills you can get doesn't really matter - the point remains that it is way better than simply +1 officer.

Well, I admit was trying to do an on average estimate of the skill in isolation.  Neural link, by itself, with no other skills selected, feels like 1 extra officer (on a capital perhaps) to me.  Sure, if you optimize it with other skill selections, it can be far more effective, but that's true of many skills (multiple armor tanking skills comes to mind).  Neural link also comes with some minor disadvantages (25 less OP on two capital ships if you want to leverage the "officer" bonus portion the most, no +15% CR from Combat Endurance, no +100% missiles from Missile Specialization).  But at that point it comes down to comparing full builds and opportunity costs.

The problem I have in evaluating it is a huge portion of Neural link's potential strength is tied up in player skill, which is something I can't really account for when discussing general benefit.  Some players just hit auto-pilot on their flagship, at which point they're getting no benefit from jumping between ships, and some players can probably use it do some disgusting maneuvers (perhaps with phase ships or coordinated missile strikes).

Having used it in my current run, it's fun, but the delay when jumping between capitals kills a lot of potential of well timed coordinated maneuvers for me.  You have to already been in the ship if you're trying to do anything at all that has delicate timing.  I get no real benefit from the skill when jumping between Odysseys, for example.  At least the way I fly Odysseys which often involves plasma burns followed by short vents.  I can kind of dance against a 5x Autopulse Radiant that way, but if I need 4 seconds to transfer, the Odyssey in that case is dead by the time I arrive.  I'd rather have the 25 OP back on the ship, and be better on that single Odyssey.

I've started a General discussion topic on Neural link, and would love to hear about how people have leveraged it in actual play there.  Or discuss the value of the skill, to avoid derailing this announcement post too much.

You really, really underestimate how important officers are. Support Doctrine only gives the 3 least important skills to ships. It's much better to just field larger ships and fill all your DP with officered ships. Support doctrine is only good for full degen spam strategies, in which case you will combine it with Derelict Ops and enjoy your 50% discount on fighter bays and missile slots.

There is some value in simply having more ships on the field than the opponent.  Depending on fleet composition, it may or may not be worth it over converting a bunch of frigates into a single capital, for example.  While I haven't used it, it looks mostly like an escort frigate support skill to me.  For frigates, it gives two solid skills (Combat Endurance and Helmsmanship).  Depending on the ships, a +50% maneuverability can reduce actual hits on small, fast frigates.   Damage control admittedly is less impressive, but does have some minor benefit against things like Thunders and Ion beams, which can be problematic for frigates, as when they lose their engines, they're basically dead. 

I do find the AI really starts having issues when it is significantly outnumbered locally, as it often makes it hard for it to retreat and vent.  A squad of 4 capitals can have a lot of trouble with 30 Scarabs/Tempests, as an admittedly extreme example.

In 0.95a, in my low tech run, I was ended up running 6 unofficered Lashers to act as escorts to my officered capitals and carriers.  That fleet had 8 level 6 officers plus player piloting 2 Onslaughts, a Legion XIV, 2 Mora, 4 Enforcers.  I also had unofficered 2 Condors and the 6 Lashers.  The Lashers did a ton of work keeping flanks clear, especially against phase ships.  I was actually struggling in some cases when I didn't have frigates deployed, so they certainly felt like they were pulling their weight, more so than perhaps an officered Legion that I might have replaced them and the Condors with.

Would I take Support Doctrine over Best of the Best for such a low tech setup?  Probably not, as Best of the Best feels like +1 skill to me for all ships I spend the extra story point on.  But I might imagine doing it if I were a zero personal combat skill build, and had already gone 7 deep in Leadership doubling up on the two officer skills.  Only 3 DP for a triple s-mod, fully restored Luddic Path Lasher with Combat Endurance and Helmsmanship sounds good to be honest.    Slapping 20 of those as filler in a fleet at that point is only 60 out of 240 DP.  Then 10 officer ships hits 30 ship fleet cap, at an average 18 DP per officer ship.  Say two Onslaughts, a Legion XVI, and 6 SO Hammerheads.  Or 6 Furies and 4 Hyperions.

It's certainly not a general use skill, but I can see there might be some application to wide fleets.  As everyone points out, you can hit 240 DP with 8 officers. 4 Capitals and 4 Cruisers, 240 DP is no problem.   But, that's not a wide fleet.  That's the same number of ships everyone else is playing, 8+1 or 10+1.  The skill looks to be trying to enable a different play style which explicitly plays differently than what everyone seems to be used to.  I mean, what if a player wants to have fun by putting 30 ships on the field?  Which skill should they take to do that?  They take Support Doctrine, as no other skill is going to help the 20-22 other ships (most likely cheap frigates) as much.

Is it balanced enough for that, I dunno, as I haven't tried it.  But making it apply to ships with officers or simply saying you should only ever use 8 or 10 ships with officers, I think is missing the point of the play style the skill is trying to enable.
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SonnaBanana

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Re: Starsector 0.95.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #779 on: December 17, 2021, 11:12:06 PM »

Support Doctrine does synergize well... with Wolfpack Tactics  :P
Doesn't WT require an officer in the ship for bonuses to apply?
That's the point, you put all your officers in frigates/destroyers for massive damage.
While unofficered Cruisers and Capital enjoy the benefits of Damage Control and large DP reductions.
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