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Starsector 0.95.1a is out! (12/10/21); Blog post: Uniquifying the Factions, Part 2 (04/30/22)

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Author Topic: [0.95.1a] Ore Refinery v0.65 - 03/10/22  (Read 29189 times)

Dazs

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Re: [0.95a] Ore Refinery v0.4 - 11/08/21
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2021, 03:37:47 AM »

Something is wrong with the valuations in my game - the refined rare material, palladium, is only valued at 2k on the market tabs (F1). Interestingly, despite the most expensive market listing it for 2200, I was able to sell it on Cruor for 3k. Still, though, a far cry off from the value of the combined ores listed in the OP.

Platinum is working just fine. Love the concept and am having actual fun as a miner now.

I am so glad you like the overall concept and it really makes me happy to bring joy to another mining enthusiast! :)

I did some quick testing on two stations in different parts of the sector and found the valuation much higher than what that market tooltip (F1) shows. I have found the market to be a rough guide for single pricing and not really accurate because it bases it's value as if you were selling 300 units of a commodity.

This is Palladium out in the wild:
Spoiler
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Palladium at station 1:
Spoiler
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Palladium at station 2:
Spoiler
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So in my game Palladium is at a base value of 4800 (pic1 top left) But you can see that in Pic 2 & 3 that price ("Sells for" price on the top left of the tooltip) does differ between the two stations from different star systems. The market values in all three pic are way off which goes to my point of it not being all that useful as a guide.

I have all three of the custom recourses set to mimic the market price of the ore used. It does lower the valuation a little because I also factor in the cost of the heavy machinery. The following is the math behind my calculations for Palladium which is representative of all three custom commodities.
 
A bit of a peek under the hood but I put it in spoilers because I know how popular a subject math calculations can be :)
Spoiler
The first three lines are from Starsector's core files Commodities.CSV. The last three lines are from the mod's Commodities.CSV:


This taken from the mod's configurations settings at data/config
"MF_OreConversionRate": 10,
"MF_OreCost": 185,
"MF_RARE_OREConversionRate": 10,
"MF_RARE_ORECost": 62,
"MF_ORGANICSConversionRate": 10,
"MF_ORGANICSCost": 95,      
"MF_HeavyMachineryCost":1,

Now referring to the charts found on the OP, you can see the breakdowns of each commodity that matches the above conversion numbers.

So that being said, let's take the Palladium conversion as an example: Rare_Ore is set by starsector at 75. I have Palladium set at a base price of 75. Now multiply that by the Utility of 64 which gives it a conversion price of 4800. Now this does effect market demand because the game sees this 1 product as 64 rare ore. I originally had the custom commodities set as their own demand class non-econ commodity but as was pointed out by slowpersun it did not convert properly so I changed the conversion to use the demand class of the originating ore. This replicates the bulk value (which is always lower) of the rare ore sold at a station versus a 1 v 1.

[key HM=Heavy Machinery]

Now back to the OP charts vs the mod's configurations settings I have the RARE_ORECOST set to use 62 versus the the above UTILITY of 64 from the Commodities.CSV. The 2 difference accounts for the HM cost (HM cost 150 vs Rare ore cost 75 x2 =150). The downside of this is that HM has it's own demand and market fluctuations. I can not factor that in because I cannot do split demand classes so that fraction of the overall that represents HM does account for some loss in overall value of the Palladium.

Now the only factor I can see maybe effecting the price is that I lowered the price variability by 1 in the mod's CSV vs the game's CSV. The variability affects how price fluctuates with demand. I don't remember the exact formula, but it factors into an exponent somewhere. Variability 0 means no price variation at all. Variability 10 is something like 16x the price when no demand is met, and a comparably sharper dropoff after all demand is met. So by lowering the variability I lowered the variance fluctuation but that my not be working as intended because math is hard and I suffer from dumb brain.
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Now if you read the above spoiler, OMG I give you props for your inquisitive brain! Bottom line: I do my best to take the game's algorithms and smash them with my inexperience and do my best to line them up. I am currently working on another new mod but I will pause that and look into this further and get back to you.   

As always, thank you for helping me make this mod the best it can be!


Jaghaimo

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Re: [0.95a] Ore Refinery v0.4 - 11/08/21
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2021, 04:59:58 AM »

> I did some quick testing on two stations in different parts of the sector and found the valuation much higher than what that market tooltip (F1) shows. I have found the market to be a rough guide for single pricing and not really accurate because it bases it's value as if you were selling 300 units of a commodity.

You should change your unit size (18th column in `commodities.csv`) to be more representative of the actual use. E.g. if you sell only a few dozens at a time, a unit size of 10 is good.

Also, if you want a QUICK breakdown of the prices - use my mod (Stellar Networks), and go to Commodities tab :)
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Dazs

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Re: [0.95a] Ore Refinery v0.4 - 11/08/21
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2021, 05:51:07 AM »

Ahh thank you. To be sure, are you referring to econUnit which is currently set to 300 in the mod. I see the correlation in the 300 that shows in the tooltip so I am making an assumption here that if I set it to 10 the tooltip will now show a market value as if a player was selling 10 units rather than the 300 I have it set to now.

I am so thankful for the help, I spend a lot of time searching through forum posts and internet searches trying to piece it all together and I could not find any documentation of what that column meant so I left it set to 300 which is the amount set for the base mining commodities. D you know by chance what the "economy Tier" column represents? I find zero documentation regarding that so again, I left it at the base value. I wonder if that is effecting the selling price.

Ontheheavens

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Re: [0.95a] Ore Refinery v0.4 - 11/08/21
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2021, 06:16:50 AM »

I am so thankful for the help, I spend a lot of time searching through forum posts and internet searches trying to piece it all together and I could not find any documentation of what that column meant so I left it set to 300 which is the amount set for the base mining commodities. D you know by chance what the "economy Tier" column represents? I find zero documentation regarding that so again, I left it at the base value. I wonder if that is effecting the selling price.

Don't know the answer to this question, but I gotta say that you should definitely go check out Discord... That would make your modding endeavors a hundred times easier. Help there is much more readily available.
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Dazs

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Re: [0.95a] Ore Refinery v0.4 - 11/08/21
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2021, 06:32:35 AM »

Heh I have spent so many hours going over the unofficial discord and it was a great help when I made my faction mod but it seems that most modders are more concerned about other topics than commodity pricing :) I will give it another go and I thank you for the tip!

cardgame

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Re: [0.95a] Ore Refinery v0.4 - 11/08/21
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2021, 08:51:11 AM »

I think it must be the 'valued at 300 units' messing up the market prediction - because the base value is so high, 300 units worth is significantly lower price through wholesaling, than what is actually true of the market for smaller quantities. I'll try to find some more rares to test with.
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Dazs

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Re: [0.95a] Ore Refinery v0.4 - 11/08/21
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2021, 10:38:28 AM »

Oh I set it to 10 on my end and it does increase the market price on the tooltip. I am looking into something else atm but Ill have a new version uploaded tonight.

JUDGE! slowpersun

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Re: [0.95a] Ore Refinery v0.4 - 11/08/21
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2021, 01:35:56 PM »

I took your comment regarding valuation to heart and changed the commodity category or all three abilities to match the raw resource category they are made from.

Forgot to mention this in my last post, but since you have switched the underlying valuation to be pegged to the original commodity category, perhaps you should change the new unique resources to just be generically named "enriched [whatever]," like enriched uranium?  Should be able to keep using the unique inventory item/graphic, but I guess it's just the naming that I have an issue with.  But do whatever, it's your mod!  I guess I can always to do a personal fork if it annoys me enough. 
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I wasn't always a Judge...

Dazs

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Re: [0.95a] Ore Refinery v0.4 - 11/08/21
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2021, 01:54:43 PM »

V0.6 released - minor fix see changelog for details.

@slowpersun You got me just as I was posting an update :)

I apologize for picking annoying item names but I try to have a consistent lore or theme in my mods. When I made the commodities I tied them into real world items that:
1) could be derived from their game equivalents
2)Have real world increased valuation

I am not locked in to those names and icons, least not a hill I am willing to die on :) If anyone has some suggestions on naming conventions and icons I could change them but its a bit of work to keep it all consistent so it's a change I'd only want to do once or twice.

If you want to change the names on your end go to commodities.csv in data/campaign and only change the first column "Name". Note. that would only change the name of the item in your inventory however if you want the tooltips to reflect that change you would have to change the name fields in all the scripts that call for them by their id.

5ColouredWalker

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Re: [0.95a] Ore Refinery v0.5 - 11/11/21
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2021, 07:35:53 PM »

Thanks for doing this!
Any chance these resources count as Metals/Transplutonics/Organics or Ore/Rare Ore/Organics for solving shortages?

Downloading anyway because it means finding a mining station or doing my own mining is no longer worthless unless I've got a bunch of bulk haulers following me, but it being able to do so might be useful.
The only way I can think to do it would be to have a script that fires on sale to convert them into the resource, however you'd end up loosing out on the demand price modifier. Also, not a modder/programmer so no clue how feasible that'd actually be.
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Dazs

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Re: [0.95a] Ore Refinery v0.5 - 11/11/21
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2021, 03:37:05 AM »

@ 5ColouredWalker Hi and welcome to the party!

Mining stations are the main reason I added the bioforge. So many organics left alone to float aimlessly in the sector just upset me more than the thrill of finding one.

You make an interesting suggestion with a reverse method of breaking down the custom resources back to their base. When this was part of my faction mod I was asked if I could tie the custom commodities into the game as a demand commodity for industries. I do have a planet industry in my faction mod (Junk Yard Dogs) that breaks down ship hulls (the commodity not actual hulls) into base resources but I do not see a way to add an industry that does similar with the Palladium Platinum and Biophotovoltaics.

I can maybe add another toggle ability to this mod that does a reverse effect but the downside however would be a substantial loss in the cost of heavy machinery and not very profitable otherwise it would be a cheat and you may as well use console commands to poof it into your cargo. I will look into both ideas and tinker under the hood and see what I can come up with without going outside of the scope of this mod.

Dread Lord Murubarda

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Re: [0.95a] Ore Refinery v0.5 - 11/11/21
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2021, 12:03:31 PM »

thank you so much for this mod!!
it was so annoying that you couldn't set up temp refining somewhere.
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Dazs

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Re: [0.95a] Ore Refinery v0.5 - 11/11/21
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2021, 04:27:47 PM »

That really makes my day. To know that I can fill an unspoken need is the best feeling.

mkire

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Re: [0.95a] Ore Refinery v0.5 - 11/11/21
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2021, 09:56:45 PM »

wanted to pop back in and say thank you very much for adding the organics/rare ore converters as well. so thanks
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Dazs

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Re: [0.95a] Ore Refinery v0.5 - 11/11/21
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2021, 03:18:08 AM »

Hiya,

Thank you for suggesting it, it was something I wanted to do but your request kicked me into gear to figure it out :) I think the mod does what I set out for it to do but I am always open to suggestions to improve it, keep em coming!
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