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Author Topic: Efficient fleet to kill pirate/luddic bases?  (Read 4428 times)

Revolve

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Efficient fleet to kill pirate/luddic bases?
« on: October 15, 2021, 10:09:20 AM »

I've been having a lot of fun running a wolfpack fleet which has been able to smash fleets and is very satisfying to play. I'm running 7 tempests, a hyperion and 2 Omens at the moment.

I'm starting to have a couple of issues with my colonies getting targeted by pirates and luddic cells quite a bit and I want to destroy the bases but I know my frigate fleet definately won't have the survivability to deal with a station.

I've got an Odyssey I've built that I can use as my flagship but I'm guessing I need some other bigger ships to help it tank and I'm wondering what people recommend.

I've got blueprints for Legion, Onslaught, Doom, Aurora, Apogee, Champion, Heron, Falcon (P version also) and Fury which I could use to build a station killing fleet but since I've mainly played with frigates I'm not sure what would be worth building.

Any suggestions? I'd also appreciate loadout suggestions since I'm pretty overwhelmed with how many options there are.

Thanks
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Warruk

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Re: Efficient fleet to kill pirate/luddic bases?
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2021, 06:00:20 PM »

Revolve,

I am toward the end of my first play through right now, and I recall that divide between a fleet that could take on other fleets and one that could take on bases.  I have only used low tech ships and have not attempted any kind of wolfpack tactics, so YMMV, but I find that frigates and destroyers don't do well.  When the bases target them, mine did not have enough shield or dissipation to stand up, and frequently got overloaded and damaged.  I focused on trying to clear out the enemy fleets using my entire fleet without being in range of base, then engaging just the base with only capitals or cruisers.

I found that 3 Dominators with the proper hullmods could take on just about any base.  Probably two Onslaughts could do the same.  I am extremely partial to Onslaughts (XIV battlegroup if you can find one) as a capital ship.  Other ships may be better, but nothing is more fun than watching an Onslaught take on multiple enemies from all angles, tanking hits and keeping guns blazing the whole time.  It's like a bull in someone else's china shop!

Here are the two threads that I used to pick my load outs: https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=21786.0, https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=22178.0.  Onslaughts are great as even if you don't want to invest any story points, they have a large amount of OP for weapons and hull mods.  Annihilator pods are great all-purpose missiles for the medium slots, but for base busting, I'd consider putting using reapers.  Bases are massive stationary targets, and Onslaughts will flux them out and make them open for some good hits.

Good luck!

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MajorTheRed

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Re: Efficient fleet to kill pirate/luddic bases?
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2021, 08:00:21 PM »

I commonly use a balanced fleet against bases:
-A handful of frigate to attract fire, missile and fighters during the first few critical minutes (when you try to get close to the station)
-2-3 destroyers to keep the protecting fleet occupied or to act as late reinforcement
-Mainly heavy cruisers. Some for fluxing the station (Eagle + autocannons) and some others for tanking (dominator)
-carriers for doing the heavy lifting. A cruiser-size carrier (Mora or the midline one) with 3 Piranhas wings is cheap and surprisingly nasty. Another carrier for providing fleet support (guided torpedo bomber, Kopesh + broadsword, etc...) as a multi role unit.
As a flagship, I commonly pilot a Dominator with 3x reapers launchers + Large Kinetic + lots of flak. If possible, I focus on wing modules firsst which are commonly loaded with missiles and drive the allied AI (and me) insane...
Because of the limitation of IA against missiles and fighters, I've never actually tried assaulting a star fortress.
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Jo Jo

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Re: Efficient fleet to kill pirate/luddic bases?
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2021, 01:25:16 PM »

Visit the bases first to see what you're up against if you want to save supplies and fuel. Most I've encountered are one-star bases, and some are only 2/3 of a three-part base. Even in later games I still see mostly one-star.

Three apogees plus something to tank (dominator) and a couple of cruiser carriers (three flights of bombers) with torpedoes is more then enough, unless you find you're up against a larger fleet that jumps into the battle with the base at the last minute.

An apogee fit with the small missile launcher designed to take out fighters plus expanded missile racks or a captain with the skill will do an amazing job taking out all the fighters and smaller ships that may accompany a base defense. I don't think I've ever lost an apogee during a base raid, though I don't use them on the largest three to four star bases. Good luck!
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Kanjejou

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Re: Efficient fleet to kill pirate/luddic bases?
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2021, 06:38:05 AM »

Carriers with Kopesh flash or pyranha do quick work of stations. usually 4-6 wings are enough

Then a big shield cruiser unit with PD to take care of the tanking, or a couple of high shield efficiency destroyers Or if you have one a capital ship equiped for tanking.

After that usually a lot of kinetic even simple mahcine guns or autocanons and some hard hitting guns for the armor and its in the bag
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Zonk

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Re: Efficient fleet to kill pirate/luddic bases?
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2021, 08:51:55 AM »

A single Paragon with 2 plasma cannons in the front and 2 tachyon lances in the turrets is all you need. No other weapons besides maybe a few PD lasers in the rear mounts; put the rest of your OP into flux stats/mods and shield efficiency. Give it an eliminate order on the station and go get a cup of coffee while it does its job. Any officer with Shield Modulation is a good fit for a ship like this. Pirate base stations are very weak (do they ever become as big as a Battlestation?) and often only have 2 out of 3 modules as Jo Jo said.

This ship might struggle if there's a particularly large defense fleet accompanying the station, so your frigates could do a good job screening the Paragon while it trashes the station. Or you could lure the defending fleets away; even at max character level I have never seen a pirate base defense fleet with more than a a few cruisers and destroyers. I find that many of the NPC stations I've fought have weapon loadouts which produce more flux than they can dissipate, so they are susceptible to being fluxed out if you deal even a moderate amount of DPS to them and prevent them from dropping shields.

Edit: just realized you don't have the Paragon BP! My bad. If you can't source a Paragon (open market or black market at any Tri-Tachyon station, or salvaging a battle between a TT fleet and another one) then a Legion is your next-best bet.

Here's my station-killing legion, which I've used with Paragons to take down star fortresses:

2x Gauss Cannon (stupid high hard flux shield DPS, high hit damage also destroys armor)

5x Annihilator pods (pressure to keep shields up, huge armor DPS when shields are down, overwhelms station PD)

Vulcans in all the small projectile slots for ridiculous PD short range DPS

Don't bother putting fighters or bombers on your Legion besides maybe Wasps; it's not a very good carrier and fighters cost a lot of OP and die fast to station guns

Max your vents first (so you can continually fire gauss Cannons) and then add whatever of the hullmods below interest you. Put the remaining OP (if any) into caps but understand that as a low tech capital you will be frequently dropping shields under fire (but not venting, as that shuts down guns and PD) and vents reduce the amount of time you need to have shields down

For hullmods, in descending order of importance to take: Integrated Targeting Unit (+60% range on 1200 base range gauss cannons is silly), Expanded Missile Racks (hugely increased missile ammo), Reinforced Bulkheads (survivability), Heavy Armor (big armor increase and also raises minimum armor value after it is destroyed), Armored Weapon Mounts (hugely increased ability to drop shields and take heavy shots without weapons getting destroyed, vital on a low tech ship with bad flux stats), or finally Blast Doors to increase hull HP and massively cut crew losses

Another fun ship is Aurora with the following:
Tactical lasers in every forward-facing small slot
2x Graviton Beams in the medium turrets
1x ion beam in the forward med synergy hardpoint
Hullmods: ITU, front Shields, hardened shields
Max vents, put remaining OP into PD or capacitors

You get nutty range with this setup and a 360-degree shield with sub-0.5 flux to damage ratio. Each graviton beam is flux efficient and does 200 shield DPS for 400 total, the 7 tactical lasers contribute 500+ DPS, and the ion beam punishes anything that tries to drop shields. The low flux use and high efficiency of beam weapons gives this fit flux to spare. I don't often use this as it's 30 DP and the Legion above is only 10 more, but if you don't want to haul around capitals for economical reasons an Aurora is basically a mini Paragon.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2021, 12:02:53 PM by Zonk »
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imperialus

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Re: Efficient fleet to kill pirate/luddic bases?
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2021, 03:56:17 PM »

If you already have an Odyssey it really should be all you need.  Give it a squall, some harpoons and sabot launchers, an autopulse laser plus something else in the other large energy. Tactical lasers in the broadside mounts and pd lasers on the other side.  Your interceptor of choice to help swat down the station fighters and hardened shields to tank like a mofo.  Go counterclockwise, kill the fighter launch bay first, then the missile platform, save the gun platform for last, just stay out of the line of fire or plasma burn out of the way if you do need to withdraw and vent.
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datamancer

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Re: Efficient fleet to kill pirate/luddic bases?
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2021, 11:27:11 AM »

1x Flagship Onslaught, configured for PD and shields/flux.
2x Apogee, Locust + Tachyon

These three get in the front and take up space. Apogees with locusts and tachyons will be handling all your anti-fighter/frigate needs, while the Onslaught clears the missile spam.

4x Herons + Bombers. I happen to like the Khopesh for dealing with fixed targets, but even piranhas will do. You need all 12 wings to saturate station PD reliably.

If you need to be able to keep the enemy fleet off your case while the main fleet goes to work, SO Champions with Hammer Barrages and Plasma Cannon are IMO some of the best bang for the buck out there, particularly if you can get an aggressive missile/shield/readiness officer in place.
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Wyvern

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Re: Efficient fleet to kill pirate/luddic bases?
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2021, 11:51:06 AM »

This will vary some with your personal skills (and your character's skills), but in my experience the best anti-station option is to go in heavy with lots of missiles; a fully-intact station is murderous to fight, but a station that's missing even just one major segment is vastly easier to kill.

It's also worth knowing that Pather stations will be much more dangerous than Pirate stations - they tend to have larger supporting fleets, as well as being higher level. If you need to take out a Pather station, it is frequently worthwhile to lure fleets away from the station before engaging.

My personal favorite for anti-station work is a Legion XIV with dual hammer barrages, mostly-khopeshes, and a mix of flak-or-dual-flak and low-flux-cost kinetic weapons; using that as your flagship (the AI isn't quite aggressive enough about just burning through ammunition) it's possible to burn in and take out most of an enemy battlestation very nearly on your own - the hammer barrage doesn't have a ton of staying power, but what it does have over every other large missile system is raw DPS while its ammo lasts.

Given the blueprints you listed, though, I'd recommend using some mix of Legion/Champion/Falcon-P - the regular Legion is a solid ship, if not capable of quite the same burst DPS as the XIV version.
Plus your choice of flagship - the Odyssey you've got might work okay (as would a Legion), but a tanky Fury variant can be pretty good for keeping enemy guns off your main ships, and the Doom could be a good choice too.

I'd advise against bringing in an AI-controlled Fury or Odyssey, though. The AI loves to use their mobility systems to ram stations, which tends to end poorly for them.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Thaago

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Re: Efficient fleet to kill pirate/luddic bases?
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2021, 12:27:31 PM »

Giving another specific example from what Wyvern was saying about missiles: Enforcers are surprisingly good against stations (as part of a pack, not alone). Either 50/50 sabots/reapers or 25/75 gives them the up front punch to help knock out a module or two fast. They can also survive getting pounded by a station's guns for a while if they get out of position, until allies can get in and help.
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Toxo

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Re: Efficient fleet to kill pirate/luddic bases?
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2021, 05:07:10 PM »

I'm currently using 2 Paragons +
Spoiler
the ziggurat
[close]
+ 14 Wolf's
Both Paragons have a hard flux loadout, with IP Pulse Lasers, Pulse Lasers, and Autopulse Lasers. Lasers for days. Their Universal slots are filled with Heavy Needlers and add nicely to these Bullethell Generators.
I use just these 2 bad boys in every initial encounter, and against the bases, since their combined firepower and areal denial shreds absolutely anything, including fighter craft.
Whatever manages to flee from the battlefield will be chased down by my wolf pack. 7 deployed to the left, 7 deployed to the right.
The Wolfs are loaded with 2x Sabot SRM's, 3 Tactical Lasers, and a Ion Beam. They have inbuild auxiliary thrusters, advanced optics and hardened shields.
They will find their prey, encircle it, and light it up like a new sun.
Spoiler
The Zigurrat
[close]
is just in there for *** and giggles, and fitted with a colorful assortment of
Spoiler
ultratech
[close]
weaponry, salvaged from
Spoiler
the anomalies guarding the coronal hypershunts
[close]

Civilian Ships consist of 4 Atlas Freighters, 2 Prometheus Tankers, 3 Salvage Rigs and 2 Valkyries.
Especially the later two are important, since I use them to raid every pather / pirate base I come across, for supplies and fuel, before I blow them up and salvage the rest.

All in all, fun and very cost-efficient so far.
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ubuntufreakdragon

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Re: Efficient fleet to kill pirate/luddic bases?
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2021, 12:51:47 PM »

A station is immobile, so it can't push highflux enemies.
This leads to my preferred tactic field some shield tanks like Apogee in groups so they can vent behind each other.
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Maethendias

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Re: Efficient fleet to kill pirate/luddic bases?
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2021, 01:29:11 AM »

a few tips for fighting trashtech (ludd/pirates)

hightech is more efficient, since high tech fleets are faster on the campaign than low or mid tech, skirmishing and long range is also really good against trashtech overall

for most trashtech bases you usually only need 1 or 2 apogees for tanking, throw in some long range destroyer or cruiser support and you wont have many problems with stations

dont use bombers, despite trashtech being quite fragile, its acutally better to bring fighters to hunt down frigates and destroyers (they are way more dangerous than trashtech cruisers or capitals)
the reason why you dont use bombers is trashtech utilizes an overwhelming amount of pd compared to other factions, and scrapnell bombers (things like piranhas that just fill the area with munitions)

dont overrely on missiles, trashtech has lots of flares

before you attack a trashtech base, raid it first, allows you to stock up on fuel and  supplies you wouldnt get if youd just blow up the base (you also cant raid after the fight, since the station gets destroyed, and you wont get nearly as much salvage as youd have gotten from raiding it)

important: if you are switching from wolfpack tactics (which you shouldnt, you can still use them) and utilize bigger ships against trashtech, be carefull not to get surrounded... again, friggates and destroyers are the big threats, ironically (reapers, hammers and athropods are scary, and the small fries can quickly overload a shield tank if one isnt carefull)

talking about shield tanking... despite high tech being really good against trash tech, low tech armor tanking is suprisingly effective too if you have enough pd to cover missile spam, since most weaponry trash tech utilize is VERY anti shield.

all in all, when considering these tips, you shouldnt have a problem with trashtech at all... for fleet composition id suggest 2 apogees (best fitted with missiles and plasma cannon) to crack stations, 1 or 2 escort carriers to fighter screen, and the rest can be skirmishing, i have had great experiences with mining blaster shrikes (they are really good at overloading pirate and ludd shields), you really dont need to bring more... like, paragons are absolute overkill, you can make do with 1 apogee, if you bring the rest of the fleet later
« Last Edit: December 02, 2021, 01:33:40 AM by Maethendias »
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