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Author Topic: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts  (Read 16816 times)

AcaMetis

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Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2021, 01:24:32 PM »

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Starting with the obvious, slipstreams make fleets inside them go fast – we’re talking in the area of burn level 40, which is about double what can be achieved normally. Maximum speed is achieved near the center of the stream. Narrower sections are faster, while wider sections slow down considerably. This is all indicated by the movement of the particles in the stream, so is easy to get the hang of.
Is that flat, or dependant on the burn speed of the fleet? Basically does the slipstream give 2× burn or does it light a fire underneath your engines and tell you to get going?

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Overall, I think that provides enough options and considerations to stay engaged. And besides, going really fast is just fun! And that brings us to another point.
Let it be known that I approve of precisely all of this...for what that's worth ::).

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As far as generating a slipstream layout – I think here I’ll just talk about how it works and what effect that has/is intended to have, rather than talking about how it got there. So! First off, slipstreams are dynamic – there isn’t a single fixed layout. Instead, a new layout is generated twice per cycle, and the player only sees as much of the slipstream system on the map as they’ve explored – though unlike with sensors, merely getting near enough for it to show up on your radar is sufficient to “see” it and have it be remembered on the map.
How are slipstreams going to interact with mods that change sector size? Are they going to have to limit slipstreams to just where they would be in vanilla (assuming the core even lines up) or even disable them entirely, or can they be changed/modded/added/etc.?

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One might ask, “but why is slipstream flow synchronized with the Domain cycle, which is an arbitrary human construct?”. I could say that the wizard did it. Or, perhaps, that it’s a good question with terrible implications. But, instead – let’s just say that this isn’t a fixed state of affairs, but at the current time in the Sector, two otherwise independent cycles have conveniently lined up.
The wizard? Is there a wizard present in the sector that I do not know about :)?

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the mercurial scythe of balance whiffs
Not sure how to interpret that one...
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Alex

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Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2021, 01:34:20 PM »

I think this is a major missed opportunity. IMO, it would be much more interesting if there was an inherent danger to using slipstreams because there was an increased level of traffic near them, and I think it would also just feel much more natural.

I would guess that would require some sort of pathfinding algorithm that would be a significant amount of work, but I really think it's worth doing at some point, even if it is not for this patch.

Ah - the encounter system does this, basically! There aren't *that* many fleets out in hyper beyond the core, anyway, and given how some of that works behind the scenes (RouteManager, spawning things in when near the player, etc) I don't think it'd combine to actually produce a sufficiently increased level of traffic - especially not hostile traffic, with most of that stuff being scavengers. Whereas the encounter system does this explicitly, not trying to rely on that emerging based on other things, if that makes sense.

What transition mechanism are you using for when the slip stream moves?  Fade out/in or some sort of stream movement?

They fade out in bits and pieces (based on some perlin noise type thing) over something less than a month. And then a new set of streams fades in over time, so they don't actually "move".

Well, except for the one that's the wake behind the ghost - though that doesn't move either, it just lays down more slipstream and fades out older segments.

Maybe add a quest that gives the current slipstream map?  Knowledge of the current slipstream layout could really give the player some interesting, time limited choices.

Maybe! Was actually thinking about that very thing, but had to draw the line somewhere :) Still, keeping that one in mind, that could be really fun. And the best part is that it's info you can *keep* giving the player, and it keeps being interesting.

Thanks for making an amazing game even better.

:D

Is that flat, or dependant on the burn speed of the fleet? Basically does the slipstream give 2× burn or does it light a fire underneath your engines and tell you to get going?

The stream has a base speed, and then the fleet's speed is modified by any active-ability modifiers to the fleet's speed (i.e. e-burn, s-burn). I actually forget if tugs increase your in-stream speed or not.

So: flat, but not entirely, and *not* dependent on your slowest ship's burn.

Let it be known that I approve of precisely all of this...for what that's worth ::).

Excellent :)

How are slipstreams going to interact with mods that change sector size? Are they going to have to limit slipstreams to just where they would be in vanilla (assuming the core even lines up) or even disable them entirely, or can they be changed/modded/added/etc.?

The layouts can be modded, yeah. Without any changes, iirc the streams would cover the bigger sector, but would be sparser because of the increased area.

The wizard? Is there a wizard present in the sector that I do not know about :)?

:-X

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the mercurial scythe of balance whiffs
Not sure how to interpret that one...

(Just a round about way of saying that this post did not discuss any nerfs to anything...)
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JUDGE! slowpersun

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Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2021, 01:58:14 PM »

I think this is a major missed opportunity. IMO, it would be much more interesting if there was an inherent danger to using slipstreams because there was an increased level of traffic near them, and I think it would also just feel much more natural.

I would guess that would require some sort of pathfinding algorithm that would be a significant amount of work, but I really think it's worth doing at some point, even if it is not for this patch.

Ah - the encounter system does this, basically! There aren't *that* many fleets out in hyper beyond the core, anyway, and given how some of that works behind the scenes (RouteManager, spawning things in when near the player, etc) I don't think it'd combine to actually produce a sufficiently increased level of traffic - especially not hostile traffic, with most of that stuff being scavengers. Whereas the encounter system does this explicitly, not trying to rely on that emerging based on other things, if that makes sense.

What transition mechanism are you using for when the slip stream moves?  Fade out/in or some sort of stream movement?

They fade out in bits and pieces (based on some perlin noise type thing) over something less than a month. And then a new set of streams fades in over time, so they don't actually "move".

Well, except for the one that's the wake behind the ghost - though that doesn't move either, it just lays down more slipstream and fades out older segments.

Maybe add a quest that gives the current slipstream map?  Knowledge of the current slipstream layout could really give the player some interesting, time limited choices.

Maybe! Was actually thinking about that very thing, but had to draw the line somewhere :) Still, keeping that one in mind, that could be really fun. And the best part is that it's info you can *keep* giving the player, and it keeps being interesting.

Is that flat, or dependant on the burn speed of the fleet? Basically does the slipstream give 2× burn or does it light a fire underneath your engines and tell you to get going?

The stream has a base speed, and then the fleet's speed is modified by any active-ability modifiers to the fleet's speed (i.e. e-burn, s-burn). I actually forget if tugs increase your in-stream speed or not.

So: flat, but not entirely, and *not* dependent on your slowest ship's burn.


Interesting Chutes and Ladders addition, but it neatly fixes some complaints about hyperspace taking forever until storyline finishes, basically.  Seems kinda silly to point out, but slipstreams and currents on Earth are as much a function of gyre movement as fluid dynamics... mostly because Earth's axis is tilted.  Still, making the slipstreams change seasonally is a better use than making it totally random.  But, as you mentioned, entrances and exits are dynamically generated as seasons change.  So are these truly subject to drift over time, or do the entrance/exit only move around a limited geography?  Also, do multiple slipstream "maps" overlap and simultaenously change on the season, or just one at a time?  Because having stuff go "north"/"south" seasonally would be just as easy as "east"/"west" ...

Plus, would be cool to have bounty/quest option to map any particular slipstream early in season and then sell to faction(s).  Even cooler if player can also buy maps off of black market.  Although I guess the level of cool would vary based on whether same slipstream maps are reused, so that even if it changes a little, maps still basically accurate (or not).

Also, what happens if your fleet runs out of fuel in a slipstream?  Do you conserve momentum and just shoot out (and then drift), or do you still have some measure of control?  Or when you get low on fuel, is it better to drop burn level to low and just ride it out to wherever you need to go; basically, what is minimum speed in a slipstream before being ejected due to lack of control?

Finally, can you still add a vectored version of the fluid particle effect to battles in sun corona and solar flares (plus maybe neutron star beams)?  Solar wind baby!
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Grievous69

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Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2021, 01:58:49 PM »

I'm time and time again impressed how you manage to come up with such elegant and fun idea to improve a part of the game I didn't even expect to get looked at in detail. I mean I was aware how some think hyperspace travel is boring and slow, but I didn't see a brand new mechanic coming. Looks really cool and can't wait to try it out in practice to see how much of a difference will it make.

Slightly unrelated, is this then the final "meaty" part of the upcoming update? I know there's still a fair amount of work to be done but I'm curious if we're reaching the final stretch so to speak.
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Voyager I

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Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2021, 02:18:27 PM »

Worth clarifying precisely - are ships in slipstreams protected from hyperspace storms (even if it's only because the two forms of stellar geography can't overlap), or are they protected only from the speed debuff and still liable to the slipstream taking them on a ride through a bunch of lightning strikes?
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Amoebka

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Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2021, 02:35:40 PM »

Now instead of flying into an unseen pirate armada at burn 30 I can do it at 40. Hyperspace just got 33% more exciting.

Hoping at least one of those ghosts is a giant alien amoeba flying around, MoO style.
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FooF

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Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2021, 02:43:41 PM »

Worth clarifying precisely - are ships in slipstreams protected from hyperspace storms (even if it's only because the two forms of stellar geography can't overlap), or are they protected only from the speed debuff and still liable to the slipstream taking them on a ride through a bunch of lightning strikes?

From the blogpost: "(Oh, and worth noting: being inside a slipstream takes precedence over any other terrain your fleet might be in. So, for example, the bonuses/penalties from being in deep hyperspace, or in a storm, and so on, do not apply.)" I interpret that as, yes, you're protected from hyperspace storm strikes.

@Alex

Very cool (and completely unlooked-for). I'm intrigued by the "ghosts" themselves at this point, which of course, you'll say nothing about. The fact that these slipstreams are seasonal is also interesting, both for gameplay and lore reasons. I imagine I'll chart courses depending on whether a slipstream is available or not but I wonder how much I'll wait for one vs. leg it to a far-off location.

I remember some kind of "wave" phenomena from ages ago that I remember thinking "aww, that would have been a real cool way to travel" and lo and behold, we have something quite a bit more refined/focused.

I also think these tunnels are great fodder for hyperspace monsters but I won't hold my breath! :)
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Sly

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Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2021, 02:51:53 PM »

These look like a lot of fun. I would've loved to see this in Star Control 2 way back. Fit real well with the simple inertial mechanics it had.

Ride the wave
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Alex

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Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2021, 03:03:09 PM »

But, as you mentioned, entrances and exits are dynamically generated as seasons change.  So are these truly subject to drift over time, or do the entrance/exit only move around a limited geography?  Also, do multiple slipstream "maps" overlap and simultaenously change on the season, or just one at a time?  Because having stuff go "north"/"south" seasonally would be just as easy as "east"/"west" ...

One "layout" fades away, and then the new one fades in. Otherwise it could get awkward with stream overlaps with going-away streams disrupting the new streams, etc. So the 6th/12th month of the cycle are when the current set of slipstreams fades away.

Plus, would be cool to have bounty/quest option to map any particular slipstream early in season and then sell to faction(s).  Even cooler if player can also buy maps off of black market.  Although I guess the level of cool would vary based on whether same slipstream maps are reused, so that even if it changes a little, maps still basically accurate (or not).

Could be very cool, yeah!

Also, what happens if your fleet runs out of fuel in a slipstream?  Do you conserve momentum and just shoot out (and then drift), or do you still have some measure of control?  Or when you get low on fuel, is it better to drop burn level to low and just ride it out to wherever you need to go; basically, what is minimum speed in a slipstream before being ejected due to lack of control?

Some momentum, but you lose control - it's as if you were constantly trying to move out of the stream and into the nearest gravity well. So you'll get carried along some, but not a lot.

Finally, can you still add a vectored version of the fluid particle effect to battles in sun corona and solar flares (plus maybe neutron star beams)?  Solar wind baby!

Hmm, probably not, honestly - I don't know that adding something "busy"-looking to a combat background is a good idea. Might have a look at some in-combat nod to it at some point, but right now there isn't anything.

I'm time and time again impressed how you manage to come up with such elegant and fun idea to improve a part of the game I didn't even expect to get looked at in detail. I mean I was aware how some think hyperspace travel is boring and slow, but I didn't see a brand new mechanic coming. Looks really cool and can't wait to try it out in practice to see how much of a difference will it make.

Slightly unrelated, is this then the final "meaty" part of the upcoming update? I know there's still a fair amount of work to be done but I'm curious if we're reaching the final stretch so to speak.

Hah, thank you! Hope it works out well. And yeah, it's the last "meaty" part, though there is indeed a bunch of polish-type stuff still left.

Worth clarifying precisely - are ships in slipstreams protected from hyperspace storms (even if it's only because the two forms of stellar geography can't overlap), or are they protected only from the speed debuff and still liable to the slipstream taking them on a ride through a bunch of lightning strikes?

From the blogpost: "(Oh, and worth noting: being inside a slipstream takes precedence over any other terrain your fleet might be in. So, for example, the bonuses/penalties from being in deep hyperspace, or in a storm, and so on, do not apply.)" I interpret that as, yes, you're protected from hyperspace storm strikes.

Very cool (and completely unlooked-for). I'm intrigued by the "ghosts" themselves at this point, which of course, you'll say nothing about.

Indeed :)

The fact that these slipstreams are seasonal is also interesting, both for gameplay and lore reasons. I imagine I'll chart courses depending on whether a slipstream is available or not but I wonder how much I'll wait for one vs. leg it to a far-off location.

I'd imagine you *probably* wouldn't wait for one very often? But deciding which direction from core to go on an expedition in, where to take bounties, and so on - that could well take on a seasonal aspect. It'll be really interesting to see exactly how it pans out, though.

I remember some kind of "wave" phenomena from ages ago that I remember thinking "aww, that would have been a real cool way to travel" and lo and behold, we have something quite a bit more refined/focused.

Yeah! I remember that one; the class was even called "Slipstream"... something or other, in the code.

I also think these tunnels are great fodder for hyperspace monsters but I won't hold my breath! :)

(I'll say, I'm very partial to the concept, so you never know. If I could think of a way to get a really nice 2-D amoeba going...)


Now instead of flying into an unseen pirate armada at burn 30 I can do it at 40. Hyperspace just got 33% more exciting.

Haha! Indeed. On the bright side, you know exactly where to expect this. And in the (fairly limited) testing so far, going dark a little ways out from a break is pretty effective.


Hoping at least one of those ghosts is a giant alien amoeba flying around, MoO style.

:-X


These look like a lot of fun. I would've loved to see this in Star Control 2 way back. Fit real well with the simple inertial mechanics it had.

Ride the wave

(Ah, yeah, that would've been neat! Quasi space was pretty cool, though, and played kind of a similar role design-wise, didn't it.)
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Killian

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Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2021, 03:37:52 PM »

I, for one, welcome our new hyperspace toobs. It'll be nice to have some interstellar terrain that isn't just "you go slower" or "you can go a little bit faster if you do it right but if you don't you'll get yeeted off course instead"... ;D

Curious to see what modders will do with this too. I could see entirely-custom sector maps with static slipstreams being a thing for TC-type mods, as well as colony or stable-point structures to artificially generate a stable slipstream between two specific systems.
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SonnaBanana

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Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2021, 05:54:21 PM »

Do colonies get accessibility bonuses from system proximity to slipstreams?
Since hyperspace travel is now more economical and enjoyable, are larger sector maps now more manageble?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2021, 06:07:09 PM by SonnaBanana »
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Alex

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Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2021, 07:04:55 PM »

Curious to see what modders will do with this too. I could see entirely-custom sector maps with static slipstreams being a thing for TC-type mods, as well as colony or stable-point structures to artificially generate a stable slipstream between two specific systems.

Hmm, yeah! I've thought about the latter, by the way - that could be a really interesting special item to give the player at some point, some kind of ... "Hyperstream Anchor", I don't know.

(My secret wish is for a race track, complete with other fleets competing, for prizes - and glory!)

Do colonies get accessibility bonuses from system proximity to slipstreams?

Nope! Since those are randomized, and you don't always know where they are, and they don't last, that'd be essentially a random bonus, I think.

Since hyperspace travel is now more economical and enjoyable, are larger sector maps now more manageble?

Possibly? I feel pretty happy with the size of the map in vanilla, though.
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FooF

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Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2021, 07:23:41 PM »

Yeah, I haven't wished for a larger map. By the time I have endgame fleets, the fuel cost is stupid-high to go more than halfway across it and back. A more "varied" map might be on my wishlist but it's not like you can create distinct biomes or quadrants without really killing the suspension of disbelief. After all, at the end of the day, all space is is clusters of gas and orbiting rocks (of various sizes). 

I suppose a little civilization out among the stars is kind of what I crave, and not just the ruined kind. Fringe independent colonies that clash with pirates out away from the Core are something I've always would have liked to see (especially if, with some missions/coaxing, you could get them to join you and add a colony to your faction) but again, I'm not holding my breath. Ruins, orbital habitats, and the like tell me that such stuff once existed but everything has been in a state of decay since the Collapse. Size 3 worlds just scratching a living in random places doesn't sound too far-fetched to me, though. Or heck, and it would have to be story-related, a system cut off but with pristine Domain technology or even an alien world of some sort. Maybe none of this is in the vision/scope of the game but discovering these things (and fighting them!) would be a fun experience.
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Sly

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Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2021, 08:40:54 PM »

Hmm, yeah! I've thought about the latter, by the way - that could be a really interesting special item to give the player at some point, some kind of ... "Hyperstream Anchor", I don't know.

(My secret wish is for a race track, complete with other fleets competing, for prizes - and glory!)

That would also make having distant colonies a lot more palatable. Assuming you can colonize close to the core, then slipstream out somewhere (or back) to a colony in a local or adjacent constellation at the terminus.

Hosting a race on a static slipstream(s) for the major factions would be a pretty fun one-off event. Aside from the racing itself, all the politics, backstabbing, and straight up open combat. Merchandising, MERCHANDISING! Come see the fastest in the Sector compete for Prestige and Bragging Rights! Reliable Hegemony engineering vs. Tri-Tachyon's bleeding edge! Daredevils from the League vs. Diktat discipline! Proselytizing pilots from Gilead squaring up with the predictably treacherous Pirates (naturally, Kanta greased a few wheels to enter). And the wild card (INSERT PLAYER FACTION HERE), the dark horse for the event. Who can say what the consequences would be for outshining the Sector's biggest names? Would it be worth it for taking the grand prize, and winning admiration across the Sector?

All bets are final!

No one invite the Pathers, though, they hate fun. Unless??? ;)

Naturally, it'd be fun to just race for low stakes as well.
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Sundog

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Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2021, 08:45:33 PM »

Awesome. I love everything about this!
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