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Author Topic: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts  (Read 6863 times)

Alex

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Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
« on: September 24, 2021, 10:53:40 AM »

Blog post here.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2021, 10:55:36 AM by Alex »
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Tartiflette

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Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2021, 10:56:15 AM »

 :o
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Alex

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Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2021, 10:59:24 AM »

Me too, me too.
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Tartiflette

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Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2021, 11:13:51 AM »

Very interesting, I feel this is a perfect time to dig up my old suggestions about having a more scattered colonization layout with small outposts away from the core worlds, because it would make a hell of a lot of sense for the major powers to maintain a security presence at the ends of those slipstreams. Maybe there are a couple ideas in there and the replies that could be worth revisiting?

https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=13377.0

Also, I hope scavenger fleets make a heavy use of those slipstreams, so that I can setup a toll secure those trade-lines for the greater good.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2021, 11:17:52 AM by Tartiflette »
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RustyCabbage

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Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2021, 11:18:21 AM »

Slipstreams look extremely cool, and I love reading about the technical details behind implementing them. Also hooray: hyperspace remnants. :p

Cyan Leader

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Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2021, 11:20:53 AM »

Well that came out of nowhere. Thank you for making the exploration content more engaging, looking forward to trying it out!
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megabot

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Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2021, 11:24:21 AM »

this is poggers indeed, though i do not completely understand - what was that at the start about sensor ghosts being the inspiration?

also apologies for asking butwhen could the update be, maybe?
aside the  fact that this ferature needs to be finalized some(like the skills) are still not completely done

also as a side note, maybe the skill to aquire the instantly jump into hyperspace(forgot what it was called) and the neutrino detector could maybe gain a buff from their respective skill, considering that you can get them for free so the skill essentially "offers less"
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TheLaughingDead

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Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2021, 11:40:39 AM »

Something brought up in the blog post is that the Domain cycles are an arbitrary human concept that coincidentally coincides with two independent seasonal cycles of the slipstream (at this current point in time). Couldn't it be explained that seasonal slipstream cycles actually do follow the Domain calendar because they influenced the creation of the Domain cycle calendar? Unless humans came up with the Domain calendar before they discovered hyperspace and slipstream seasons, it could make more sense that they might create/organize their interstellar empire's calendar according to something a bit more applicable to living across thousands of stars than the rotation of a single planet (Earth) around a single star (The Sun).

Then again, I have no clue about any of the lore of the game, I don't really keep up with that side of the game very much. Anyone know more about the Domain cycle calendar and when it was introduced? I seem to recall something about it being the number of years since the player's sector split from the Domain.
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Vanshilar

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Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2021, 11:47:00 AM »

Hmm...when you were reading up on fluid dynamics, did you consider modeling the flow of a fluid inside of a pipe? It turns out that (due to boundary conditions -- flow is assumed zero where the fluid meets the walls of the pipe) you naturally get a nice effect where the flow rate is parabolic (fastest in the middle, going down to zero at the walls), at least for laminar flow. I'm sure there are some good fluid-in-pipe software and papers out there to make it easier to render, plus, that may be a nice approximation for the speed bonus that you get when inside the slipstream; that the bonus speed you get (beyond your normal speed) is parabolic, with the peak when you're in the middle of the slipstream.

Along with this, there should also be a lot of resources for modeling fluid flow inside a curved pipe. Unfortunately, I don't remember much about this in my undergrad days, other than 1) the pressure on the outside part of the "knee" or bend is higher than the pressure on the inside, since that's basically what makes the fluid curve around, and 2) one homework assignment involved doing a finite element simulation of the fluid flow in a 90 degree bend in a pipe. Everybody except me did it in Matlab since it was just a (relatively) few short lines of code. I didn't know Matlab, so I ended up doing it in...Excel. That's right, a finite element fluid flow simulator written up in Excel for a homework assignment. Sigh.

It seems like the slipstreams are essentially a bunch of curves in a 2-D plane. In which case, it may be computationally easier to model the fluid flow that way (as fluid flow inside a curved pipe), so that the velocity curves are basically pre-computed (i.e. easily determined from a few input parameters). If I remember correctly, the faster fluid flow is actually on the outside part of the knee, not on the inside, which raises an interesting decision for the player: they go faster when they're fairly close to the outer boundary, but if they go too close, then the velocity bonus decays very rapidly. So there's a natural risk vs reward decision in that case.
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Nextia

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Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2021, 11:47:49 AM »

The slipstreams look wacky as hell and real fun at the same time, looking forward to zipping across the sector in them  :D
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Manually applicable D-Mod-like-hullmods, for when blowing ships to hell isn't fast enough

michail

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Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2021, 11:54:27 AM »

Do these just boost the speed if the fleet is moving in the right direction, or do they actively push the fleet (like pulsar beams do)?
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Thaago

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Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2021, 12:08:37 PM »

Looks neat! I like how the different movement modes have advantages and disadvantages in terms of speed vs following the stream (and of course sensor profile).
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Alex

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Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2021, 12:12:38 PM »

Very interesting, I feel this is a perfect time to dig up my old suggestions about having a more scattered colonization layout with small outposts away from the core worlds, because it would make a hell of a lot of sense for the major powers to maintain a security presence at the ends of those slipstreams. Maybe there are a couple ideas in there and the replies that could be worth revisiting?

https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=13377.0

Ah - these are dynamic, right, so the location of "at the ends" changes over a small timescale.

It's an interesting suggestion, and I saw it back when you posted it! ... and, ah, looks like I replied, and I think that sums up my current feelings about it, too.

Also, I hope scavenger fleets make a heavy use of those slipstreams, so that I can setup a toll secure those trade-lines for the greater good.

Not particularly, no. Fleet AI isn't really aware of these, though its natural behavior I think works reasonably well anyway - you can get some nice chases inside slipstreams, that sort of thing.

Slipstreams look extremely cool, and I love reading about the technical details behind implementing them. Also hooray: hyperspace remnants. :p
Well that came out of nowhere. Thank you for making the exploration content more engaging, looking forward to trying it out!
The slipstreams look wacky as hell and real fun at the same time, looking forward to zipping across the sector in them  :D

:D


this is poggers indeed, though i do not completely understand - what was that at the start about sensor ghosts being the inspiration?

Quote from: blog post
The idea, in this case, was that I wanted a certain type of sensor ghost to leave behind it a wake that made it easy to follow.

Ah - maybe you missed this line in the blog post?

also apologies for asking butwhen could the update be, maybe?
aside the  fact that this ferature needs to be finalized some(like the skills) are still not completely done

When it's ready/soon(tm) :)

also as a side note, maybe the skill to aquire the instantly jump into hyperspace(forgot what it was called) and the neutrino detector could maybe gain a buff from their respective skill, considering that you can get them for free so the skill essentially "offers less"

I wouldn't say that; these skills are balanced without considering that they offer an active ability; it's just an "extra".

Something brought up in the blog post is that the Domain cycles are an arbitrary human concept that coincidentally coincides with two independent seasonal cycles of the slipstream (at this current point in time). Couldn't it be explained that seasonal slipstream cycles actually do follow the Domain calendar because they influenced the creation of the Domain cycle calendar? Unless humans came up with the Domain calendar before they discovered hyperspace and slipstream seasons, it could make more sense that they might create/organize their interstellar empire's calendar according to something a bit more applicable to living across thousands of stars than the rotation of a single planet (Earth) around a single star (The Sun).

Then again, I have no clue about any of the lore of the game, I don't really keep up with that side of the game very much. Anyone know more about the Domain cycle calendar and when it was introduced? I seem to recall something about it being the number of years since the player's sector split from the Domain.

I mean, that would be possible! But the Domain cycle is pretty clearly based on the Old Earth year - months, days in month, etc.


Hmm...when you were reading up on fluid dynamics, did you consider modeling the flow of a fluid inside of a pipe? It turns out that (due to boundary conditions -- flow is assumed zero where the fluid meets the walls of the pipe) you naturally get a nice effect where the flow rate is parabolic (fastest in the middle, going down to zero at the walls), at least for laminar flow. I'm sure there are some good fluid-in-pipe software and papers out there to make it easier to render, plus, that may be a nice approximation for the speed bonus that you get when inside the slipstream; that the bonus speed you get (beyond your normal speed) is parabolic, with the peak when you're in the middle of the slipstream.

Along with this, there should also be a lot of resources for modeling fluid flow inside a curved pipe. Unfortunately, I don't remember much about this in my undergrad days, other than 1) the pressure on the outside part of the "knee" or bend is higher than the pressure on the inside, since that's basically what makes the fluid curve around, and 2) one homework assignment involved doing a finite element simulation of the fluid flow in a 90 degree bend in a pipe. Everybody except me did it in Matlab since it was just a (relatively) few short lines of code. I didn't know Matlab, so I ended up doing it in...Excel. That's right, a finite element fluid flow simulator written up in Excel for a homework assignment. Sigh.

It seems like the slipstreams are essentially a bunch of curves in a 2-D plane. In which case, it may be computationally easier to model the fluid flow that way (as fluid flow inside a curved pipe), so that the velocity curves are basically pre-computed (i.e. easily determined from a few input parameters). If I remember correctly, the faster fluid flow is actually on the outside part of the knee, not on the inside, which raises an interesting decision for the player: they go faster when they're fairly close to the outer boundary, but if they go too close, then the velocity bonus decays very rapidly. So there's a natural risk vs reward decision in that case.

Ah - fluid dynamics got chucked pretty early in the process! It's really simple to have whatever function you want provide a speed multiplier based on how off-center the fleet is, you know? No need to bother with something more complicated.


Do these just boost the speed if the fleet is moving in the right direction, or do they actively push the fleet (like pulsar beams do)?

They carry the fleet along, so it's more like pulsar beams, though you have a bit more control, and particularly when near the edges. But, for example, if you try to cross one going perpendicular to it, unless you e-burn, you'll likely get carried along for a light-year or two before you get to the other side. If you do e-burn, you'll still get carried some ways downstream, just not as much. And of course this depends on how fast the stream is at that point, too.


Looks neat! I like how the different movement modes have advantages and disadvantages in terms of speed vs following the stream (and of course sensor profile).

*thumbs up*
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2021, 12:29:02 PM »

Quote
Not particularly, no. Fleet AI isn't really aware of these, though its natural behavior I think works reasonably well anyway - you can get some nice chases inside slipstreams, that sort of thing.
I think this is a major missed opportunity. IMO, it would be much more interesting if there was an inherent danger to using slipstreams because there was an increased level of traffic near them, and I think it would also just feel much more natural.

I would guess that would require some sort of pathfinding algorithm that would be a significant amount of work, but I really think it's worth doing at some point, even if it is not for this patch.
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Nick XR

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Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2021, 12:33:44 PM »

What transition mechanism are you using for when the slip stream moves?  Fade out/in or some sort of stream movement?

Maybe add a quest that gives the current slipstream map?  Knowledge of the current slipstream layout could really give the player some interesting, time limited choices.

Thanks for making an amazing game even better.
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