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Author Topic: Weird AI fleet behavior defending a station.  (Read 1466 times)

geminitiger

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Weird AI fleet behavior defending a station.
« on: September 18, 2021, 11:05:44 PM »

I can't help but notice that when I go in to assist my TT buddies defending their corporate interests namely a battle station of some variety that the AI does a peculiar thing (and not just them). It clumps ships half way between the bottom and the station out of range of the action. Often about half the ships end in in this clump and could be of any size or role. Besides the frustration that these ships are taking up deployment spots they also get in the way of rushing up to defend the station before it gets popped by a zerg rush.

Anyone else notice this? I seem to recall this has been happening since at least version .91, if this is caused by a mod, my humblest apologies.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2021, 11:22:16 PM by geminitiger »
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SCC

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Re: Weird AI fleet behavior defending a station.
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2021, 11:35:59 PM »

It's intended, even if stupid. Alex makes AI put a rally order there, so not all ships go fight with the station so it doesn't become crowded or something.

sqrt(-1)

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Re: Weird AI fleet behavior defending a station.
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2021, 03:17:00 AM »

geminitiger: Yes, I completely agree and this not caused by mods. Allied AI ship deployments when defending a station are entirely broken.
Since this happens with small and larger allied fleets alike, made up claims that this is necessary to avoid congestion, are just absurd.
It has also been reported multiple times for years that allied fighters have a deployment bug, where they spawn far away from the station at the East and West around the vertical center of the station.


It's intended, even if stupid. Alex makes AI put a rally order there, so not all ships go fight with the station so it doesn't become crowded or something.
Surprise surprise, here you go again making up or parroting nonsensical excuses for an entirely absurd behavior, resulting that another perfectly valid complaint of a long lasting issue gets drained down into the "that's just the way it is because it's supposed to be this way" gutter.

« Last Edit: September 19, 2021, 03:43:32 AM by sqrt(-1) »
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SCC

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Re: Weird AI fleet behavior defending a station.
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2021, 04:03:19 AM »

Ah - this is not actually a bug. The station defenders have a "Defend" order behind the station. If they all try to escort the station it gets too crowded around it, and if they just engage, they're too easy to pick off without much support from the station. So what happens is they'll trickle in reinforcements to escort the station as the current ships escorting it take losses.

I do have a TODO item to look at setting up two defend orders that are a bit more spread out, though; that should produce better results.

sqrt(-1)

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Re: Weird AI fleet behavior defending a station.
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2021, 04:38:48 AM »

Ah - this is not actually a bug. The station defenders have a "Defend" order behind the station. If they all try to escort the station it gets too crowded around it, and if they just engage, they're too easy to pick off without much support from the station. So what happens is they'll trickle in reinforcements to escort the station as the current ships escorting it take losses.

I do have a TODO item to look at setting up two defend orders that are a bit more spread out, though; that should produce better results.
Adding another defend point order in the middle of nowhere will obviously not solve the issue. The problem is that the entire concept around it is a mistake.

That the allied fleet, which should already be in the middle of engagement before the player joins the fight, is made to have had a vision of the future that the player will join and thus waits idle in the middle of nowhere, just to create space for a clumsy player, is conceptionally ill-conceived.

Not the allied fleet already in battle should be made to do absurd things for the case that a bad player will shake his fist when his ships of his oversized deployment and the ships of the allied fleet are blocking each other, but the player should appropriately adjust to the battle he is joining.
The player should be rewarded (effective allied and player ships) for making the right decision (e.g. attacking the flanks) and be punished (ships blocking each other) for making a bad decision (a clumsy command to let his entire fleet go where allies are already fighting).

Well, doesn't this sound familiar to a very recent subject of complaint about a broken mess with contradictory concepts, because an AI mechanic is designed to safeguard poor player decisions, causing broken consequences, adding pointless and inconceivable complexity and taking away means to do the right things in a straightforward manner?
« Last Edit: September 19, 2021, 09:50:36 AM by sqrt(-1) »
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geminitiger

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Re: Weird AI fleet behavior defending a station.
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2021, 06:05:04 AM »

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this is crazy AI.


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JAL28

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Re: Weird AI fleet behavior defending a station.
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2021, 06:58:31 AM »

If anything the AI should form the battle lines they do enjoy to employ in normal engagements, but try to incorporate the station around them such that they can still benefit from it while not being useless/undermining the presence of the station entirely
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Alex

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Re: Weird AI fleet behavior defending a station.
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2021, 08:47:38 AM »

I've actually adjusted this in the dev build to use a pair of angled defend points, and it's both working and looking much better!

(FWIW, this behavior - either with one, or with two defend points - did ultimately improve AI performance in testing. I completely agree that it looks funky with the one defend point, though.)


Surprise surprise, here you go again making up or parroting nonsensical excuses

This is not acceptable behavior on this forum. It's getting into personal attack territory and a number of your recent posts are well into running afoul of the toxicity rule. Please make sure you're familiar with the forum rules, and treat other posters with respect. This is an official warning.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2021, 08:49:59 AM by Alex »
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Helldiver

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Re: Weird AI fleet behavior defending a station.
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2021, 09:40:22 AM »

and treat other posters with respect. This is an official warning.

Strange, that doesn't seem to apply to you, since you have no issues dismissing most feedback about the game's failed AI with answers that insult the end users' intelligence, implying that they are too stupid to know what good AI is from playing other games that don't have such issues (including ones that are more complex, and came out long ago on weaker hardware).

You're even using Blizzard/Riot Game's patented "toxicity" word now. Learning from the "best".
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Thaago

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Re: Weird AI fleet behavior defending a station.
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2021, 09:52:47 AM »


Strange, that doesn't seem to apply to you, since you have no issues dismissing most feedback about the game's failed AI with answers that insult the end users' intelligence, implying that they are too stupid to know what good AI is from playing other games that don't have such issues (including ones that are more complex, and came out long ago on weaker hardware).

You're even using Blizzard/Riot Game's patented "toxicity" word now. Learning from the "best".

This is also not acceptable behavior and is a personal attack. This is an official warning.
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Yunru

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Re: Weird AI fleet behavior defending a station.
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2021, 11:39:33 AM »

What about a more granular four rally points?

Histidine

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Re: Weird AI fleet behavior defending a station.
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2021, 06:39:36 PM »

Two defend points, one on each side and slightly behind, is also what I use when my fleet supports a station. The player ships get flank shots on enemies trying to encircle the station, while remaining in its support reach.

More points aren't desirable (except maybe two closely spaced points if one is getting too cramped, but you shouldn't be deploying that many ships in a station defense battle); the station should be taking the brunt of the attacks and you don't want your ships getting too far away from it.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2021, 06:46:16 PM by Histidine »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Weird AI fleet behavior defending a station.
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2021, 07:05:57 PM »

One point behind the stations for carriers and missile support could be useful, but I think it still needs to be a bit closer than the current point which is way too far back. I agree that flank points are the most generally useful for combat ships, and that is the strategy I use when defending my stations.
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geminitiger

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Re: Weird AI fleet behavior defending a station.
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2021, 08:43:14 PM »

I've actually adjusted this in the dev build to use a pair of angled defend points, and it's both working and looking much better!

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sqrt(-1)

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Re: Weird AI fleet behavior defending a station.
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2021, 07:05:05 AM »

Two defend points, one on each side and slightly behind, is also what I use when my fleet supports a station. The player ships get flank shots on enemies trying to encircle the station, while remaining in its support reach.

More points aren't desirable (except maybe two closely spaced points if one is getting too cramped, but you shouldn't be deploying that many ships in a station defense battle); the station should be taking the brunt of the attacks and you don't want your ships getting too far away from it.
Defend point group orders for >3 ships either cause useless piles that are just a hindrance for the player (now two instead of one) if they are out of engagement reach, or cause chaotic fleet spreading if the enemy gets within engagement range.
This is aggravated by AI flaws like the initial falling back bug that is initiated with the first enemy contact.

So the planned change is generally going to worsen congestion. And since I suspect that the positions will still be in conservative rear positions, they still won't get involved into the engagement plenty of times.

The only genuine solution would be:
  • Allied frigates should be deployed in flanking positions like in attacks against retreating fleets.
  • Allied non-frigate ships should be deployed in the front left/right position of the station, with a long overdue and countlessly often requested implementation of an "approach and hold in formation" command (simplest solution would be a line-up perpendicular to the center north vector).
  • The representation of battle progression for the elapsed time till player intervention should involve allied ships.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2021, 08:06:44 AM by sqrt(-1) »
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