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Author Topic: Build Two Items into new Paragon  (Read 8558 times)

Jo Jo

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Re: Build Two Items into new Paragon
« Reply #45 on: September 19, 2021, 08:05:28 PM »

Just be aware that bigger battle size means the enemy can deploy more forces at once as well. It can help, but isn't guaranteed.

It seems like you have the basics down so improvements are going to start being harder, especially as you don't pilot. Fine tuning builds is part of improving combat performance, as is overall fleet composition. I personally do not like cruisers very much for endgame and prefer capitals + frigates and/or destroyers depending on tech level and build (low tech doesn't use frigates, mid tech likes unofficered tough filler frigates + destroyers, high tech might not use destroyers because their frigates are so good and benefit from wolfpack so much and might use their destroyers as unofficered ships rather than their frigates). For me the reason is that, in general, cruisers have a lower ratio of offense/DP than the other ship classes, the truly offensive cruisers do much better in player hands and at that stage capitals are a better player amplifier, the 'anchor' role is better done by capitals, and there is a lot of value in just having more ships on the board than the enemy (or at least not be outnumbered so badly!).

Oh, and if you aren't using lots of missiles: use lots of missiles. :D

I guess it depends on what Cruisers you're talking about. Any Cruiser that can't be highly specialized does become a liability in the end game but I find that Champions and Furies (of all things) still do well in the end while more middle-of-the-road Cruisers like Falcons/Eagles/Dominators are much less useful. The AI isn't aggressive enough with Auroras so that 30 DP cost is much better spent on 2 Furies and the Doom...well, that's another beast entirely. Champions really are the Platonic ideal of what a late-game line Cruiser should be, able to punch-up while still maintain some speed advantage over Capitals. I'm hoping that the Dominator buffs bring it back into the fray as a reliable line cruiser but at present, it's not there. If it becomes a better brick, I'll load up with double Mk. IXs against Remnants and spam Harpoons.

As for Destroyers, the only Destroyers I might even consider in endgame are Sunders, Medusas, and Harbingers. Sunders can at least match range with larger ships and can bring a heavy weapon to bear for just 11 DP. Medusas can escape and still bring enough firepower to do something and Harbingers are the ultimate interference ship. Hammerheads, Enforcers, Shrikes and the like are great in smaller battles but their lack of range and relative firepower makes them pop against any kind of Capital. I'd rather have a Wolfpack Tempest/Scarab or Hyperion than any of those Destroyers.

Thanks for the info. The Champions are quite an expensive ship to replace and they die pretty quickly in my games. Maybe I'm doing something wrong? I went with the Assault fit as one of the four choices and I gave it a five point aggressive pilot with the shield modulation skill. Maybe this is a better support ship similar to a much more durable Apogee?

I sure appreciate the info on the destroyers not playing a significant role in late game with the current build. There is also quite a bit of talk about the Wolfpack Tactics skill and using more frigates, which is not something I have tried. I dislike the uncertainty of having to salvage ships and dealing with more d-mods, thus I tend to favor more durable ships or ships with longer ranged weapons.

It's funny that you and other veterans with much more experience steer away from the Dominator heavy cruisers. Of all the cruisers, outside of 15 point Fury which I love, these have been quite good for me. They are tough and they can deal quite a bit of damage to larger ships with the Mark IX Autocannon + Heavy Mauler + Annihilator Rocket Pods and a captain with extra missiles. These cruisers really made the difference in my last encounter with two huge Hegemony fleets I was forced to take on at the same time. The Champions (I had two) ran in and died quickly, while the Dominators stayed and took out an Onslaught XIV nearly by themselves. It took three Dominators, but they did it without any of them being destroyed.

Edited: I confused Aurora with Fury. They have a similar shape. The paragraph above reads correctly now.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2021, 08:07:40 PM by Jo Jo »
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Locklave

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Re: Build Two Items into new Paragon
« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2021, 01:35:26 AM »

Definitely s-mod in Hardened Shields.  It will be one of your more expensive hullmods on Paragon.

My other pick would be Augmented Drive Field (40 OP), but others do not care about burn speed or do not mind having four or more tugs in their fleet.  If you do not care about ADF, pick the other most expensive hullmod you always use on Paragon.  You probably have some other hullmod worth at least 25 OP on it.

Wow, four tugs. That's taking up quite a few of the limited (30) slots. Maybe the ADF is a good choice. Thanks!

If you are using Paragon(s) you can afford 4 slots for tugs. It's not like you'd be lacking in Firepower without them.
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Megas

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Re: Build Two Items into new Paragon
« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2021, 05:00:58 AM »

If you are using Paragon(s) you can afford 4 slots for tugs. It's not like you'd be lacking in Firepower without them.
But the fleet may lack burn speed.

Of course, if player does not use Navigation, he needs four tugs WITH Augmented Drive Field (to boost burn 7 caps) to reach burn 20, and without the skill that reduces fuel (which was Navigation last release, now some Industry skill today), four tugs was a noticeable fuel drain.  Without Navigation and without ADF, fleet needs SIX tugs to reach burn 20, and that is too many.  (I think four is too many already.)
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JAL28

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Re: Build Two Items into new Paragon
« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2021, 05:48:48 AM »

Putting ADF on Paragons or other combat capitals would be okay if you had the finances to easily or at least comfortably afford another one. But if it was something otherwise not easily replaceable I’d probably put my OP into hull mods that would actually help it in combat. It might turn out to be a decision you’ll come to regret by wasting a valuable s-mod slot on a hull mod that may not work on your build.
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Megas

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Re: Build Two Items into new Paragon
« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2021, 07:20:12 AM »

ADF is probably the most expensive hullmod for Paragon, aside from Heavy Armor (which I normally do not use, due to mobility malus).  If I have ADF on it at nearly all times (and I frequently take long distances trip with one), it makes sense to s-mod that, which costs 40 OP, instead of something else that costs only 25 OP.

That said, in my last game, I only had a single s-mod on Paragon - Hardened Shields.  I made do with ADF (paid 40 OP for it) and I had no other s-mods because I was hoarding story points for colony improvements (thanks 2^n costs).  If I added a second s-mod on Paragon, it would have definitely been Augmented Drive Field for being the most expensive hullmod on the ship.  Of course, I consider burn 20 a must, and I do not want to clog my fleet full of tugs.  If I want to clog my fleet full of something, it would be Dooms (for maximum cheese) or Phantoms (for raiding power).  Phantom is MVP this release because of its Advanced Support Package (if I have 200 marines per Phantom), good for stealing rare items or lots of vendor trash without the need to bring lots of marines.

Story points is the Vespene Gas of Starsector.

P.S.  Main reason I did not double s-mod my ships was because I wanted to see if I really needed them.  I was doing fine crushing named bounties flawlessly with phase fleet plus Radiant (or Paragon when raiding for blueprints because Ziggurat cannot stealth raid.)  Only when I started fighting Ordos with multiple Radiants is when things got hard, but by then I did not play much longer (and I used Dooms to cheese the fights with Radiants.)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2021, 07:29:49 AM by Megas »
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Jo Jo

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Re: Build Two Items into new Paragon
« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2021, 07:27:17 AM »

Thank you for your thoughts on the importance of speed in the game. I'm still working on navigating hyperspace and avoiding the storms so the slower 16 speed fits my needs for now. Good to know there are options to bring speed back up to 20 as I reach that stage of my game play. :)
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Megas

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Re: Build Two Items into new Paragon
« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2021, 07:32:18 AM »

Thank you for your thoughts on the importance of speed in the game. I'm still working on navigating hyperspace and avoiding the storms so the slower 16 speed fits my needs for now. Good to know there are options to bring speed back up to 20 as I reach that stage of my game play. :)
Keep in mind not everyone thinks or agrees that burn 20 is critical.

If you want burn 20, Navigation is a must, which is +2 to burn when Sustained Burn is on.  Each tug adds +1 burn to the fleet.  If your fleet's lowest base burn is 8, you need Navigation and two tugs to reach burn 20.  With burn 7, you need Navigation and four tugs.
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SCC

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Re: Build Two Items into new Paragon
« Reply #52 on: September 21, 2021, 08:27:34 AM »

I don't really bother with tugs myself. Navigation I still get, but it's because it's in the way towards Automated Ships. My burn speed is whatever it happens to be and I don't really care about the particular number. About the only situation where it matters is when trying to separate Ordos, and even that can be done with burn level lower than that of Remnants.

Jo Jo

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Re: Build Two Items into new Paragon
« Reply #53 on: September 21, 2021, 09:50:29 AM »

I don't really bother with tugs myself. Navigation I still get, but it's because it's in the way towards Automated Ships. My burn speed is whatever it happens to be and I don't really care about the particular number. About the only situation where it matters is when trying to separate Ordos, and even that can be done with burn level lower than that of Remnants.

Great to know! BTW, what is their burn level? My ships travel at speed 16. Is that fast enough? Thanks!
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Ribencortez

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Re: Build Two Items into new Paragon
« Reply #54 on: September 21, 2021, 10:01:51 AM »

i have a burn of 18 with navigation and 2 tugs and i think it's manageable this way, i haven't found an ordo capable of catching me, also keep in mind that you can find and claim nav boui,..nav boy,..nav bouy...merde! >< the thing that boost the burn lvl by 3.
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Jo Jo

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Re: Build Two Items into new Paragon
« Reply #55 on: September 21, 2021, 11:00:30 AM »

i have a burn of 18 with navigation and 2 tugs and i think it's manageable this way, i haven't found an ordo capable of catching me, also keep in mind that you can find and claim nav boui,..nav boy,..nav bouy...merde! >< the thing that boost the burn lvl by 3.

Yes, genius! It does boost all your faction speeds in system by +3. Darn good to know! Thanks. :)
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Yunru

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Re: Build Two Items into new Paragon
« Reply #56 on: September 21, 2021, 11:54:36 AM »

You can also build makeshift ones yourself for a +2, even if you don't have a colony in the system.

Jo Jo

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Re: Build Two Items into new Paragon
« Reply #57 on: September 21, 2021, 02:01:47 PM »

You can also build makeshift ones yourself for a +2, even if you don't have a colony in the system.

Even without a colony? Thanks!
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Ribencortez

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Re: Build Two Items into new Paragon
« Reply #58 on: September 21, 2021, 02:17:37 PM »

You can also build makeshift ones yourself for a +2, even if you don't have a colony in the system.

Even without a colony? Thanks!

you only need a stable location 100 metals, 10 transplutonics, consumed,  and some heavy machineries but are not consumed if i'm correct.
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Jo Jo

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Re: Build Two Items into new Paragon
« Reply #59 on: September 21, 2021, 02:35:56 PM »

You can also build makeshift ones yourself for a +2, even if you don't have a colony in the system.

Even without a colony? Thanks!

you only need a stable location 100 metals, 10 transplutonics, consumed,  and some heavy machineries but are not consumed if i'm correct.

Nice. It's been a while since I built one of those. I'll be sure to bring some supplies with me when I head out that direction, probably far in the future. ;)
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