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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: 0-flux speed boost question about realism  (Read 1956 times)

CorsairZero

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0-flux speed boost question about realism
« on: September 08, 2021, 04:41:20 PM »

I ain't no rocket scientist or physicist.
Is there an in-universe or non-fictional explanation for the 0-flux speed boost being a flat s.u. bonus rather than a percent bonus?
Alternatively, I'll take posts/threads where the Devs discuss the 0-flux speed boost's design/mechanics/development in detail, if there are any.
I understand that flat instead of percent is good for QoL/enjoyment from a gameplay perspective. Additionally, I understand SS is a video game, and  doesn't seem to be going for a strong simulation/realism approach in general.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2021, 11:30:35 AM by CorsairZero »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: 0-flux speed boost question about realism
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2021, 08:08:16 PM »

Any limit on speed in space is fictional.
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CorsairZero

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Re: 0-flux speed boost question about realism
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2021, 09:21:05 PM »

Any limit on speed in space is fictional.

We could have a hypothetical acceleration/decceleration mechanical system instead, no max speed limits, and dealing with potentially absurd directional momentum even after you stopped pressing a movement key that no speed limits could bring. And forward + side + reverse thrusters on ships.

But even with that hypothetical system, I'd still question why flat values were used over percentages.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2021, 09:22:54 PM by CorsairZero »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: 0-flux speed boost question about realism
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2021, 09:40:04 PM »

To go faster, you add more thrust, so the extra speed would be related to whatever generates that thrust. IDK, maybe you could say zero flux boost is converting extra energy that had been used for something else (shields maybe?) into thrust, so it is a flat value based on how much extra energy you have? Why would a percentage make more sense to you? A percentage of what?

At the end of the day, the game is basically naval combat re-skinned in space. It's like starwars re-skinning atmospheric combat in space. It's not even vaguely realistic, so there's no point in picking through the minutia.
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JAL28

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Re: 0-flux speed boost question about realism
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2021, 11:16:21 PM »

If that would be true you could probably cause a Maairath by running an SO Tempest and flying it straight down into a planet

(or even better yet prometheus lol, cause mass extinction)
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SCC

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Re: 0-flux speed boost question about realism
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2021, 04:19:34 AM »

Mmm, relativistic kill vehicle. So simple, yet so effective!
Anyway, don't try to find realism in Starsector. It's not that kind of game.

CorsairZero

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Re: 0-flux speed boost question about realism
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2021, 10:11:33 AM »

To go faster, you add more thrust, so the extra speed would be related to whatever generates that thrust. IDK, maybe you could say zero flux boost is converting extra energy that had been used for something else (shields maybe?) into thrust, so it is a flat value based on how much extra energy you have? Why would a percentage make more sense to you? A percentage of what?

At the end of the day, the game is basically naval combat re-skinned in space. It's like starwars re-skinning atmospheric combat in space. It's not even vaguely realistic, so there's no point in picking through the minutia.

1. In Star Trek, when they want their ship to move faster they divert (all) power to the engines from the weapons/shields. SS's flux system, including the 0-flux boost, reminds me of that.

2. Although I'd be looking at acceleration in a system with no max speed, SS has max speed, so I would instead use +percent max speed, like Helmsmanship's level 2 effect.

3. Good analogy to Star Wars and reskining atmospheric combat, haven't hear that one before. For SS, I've heard "tanks on ice", and naval combat (but more maneuverable) and phase=submarines. The existence of hyperspace storms further supports the naval combat reskin argument.

4. As for picking apart and analyzing the internal workings of works of high fantasy or "video-game logic" being a fool's errand, I've found it's important to understand why a designer designed their system/product a certain way if your intent is to (criticize or) modify that system/product. Not necessary, but often useful enough for me to be a worthwhile endeavor in the pursuit of (criticism or) modification.

5. Thinking about the in-game descriptions more, travel occurs mainly in hyperspace with occasional hyperspace (deep) along with the existence of the hyperspace storms, rather than in standard space, so there's already an in-universe catch-all for the non-standard mechanics of interstellar travel. I'd assume this is why systems and planets take so little time to travel between. Because the fictional characters found out about hyperspace's existence, and how to enter it from what I'm assuming is standard space, and because travel is so much faster in hyperspace, people only re-enter standard space when needing to interact with planets. As in SSeth's Cowboy Bebop analogy, which may be a weak analogy because Bebop has a lot of non-hyperspace combat.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2021, 11:15:34 AM by CorsairZero »
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CorsairZero

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Re: 0-flux speed boost question about realism
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2021, 10:37:23 AM »

Anyway, don't try to find realism in Starsector. It's not that kind of game.

I disagree, but I understand that many people see this as a fool's errand.

I highly desire internal consistency, including within works of fiction.
And it can be important to understand why/how something works if one intends to modify it.

Although I would describe SS as work of fantasy and/or science fiction, I don't find its design to be leaning so heavily into the high fantasy sphere, like Star Trek/Star Wars, that I have stopped enjoying mentally engaging with the fictional setting and thinking critically about it's internal workings. Including the advanced DRM and 3d printers and hyperspace, which are all plausible enough for me.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2021, 11:16:17 AM by CorsairZero »
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hydremajor

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Re: 0-flux speed boost question about realism
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2021, 10:42:11 AM »

Far as I'm concerned the whole flux thing has me completely indifferent

its just a overheat mechanic like Battletech's/Mechwarrior's to try to push the whole "sim" angle a little harder

As far as the "science" thats supposed to be backing it up, the only explanation I can think of is that the more juice a ship reactor pumps out, the more plasma builds up inside of the reactor

More plasma = more juice
however that plasma radiates energy, that radiation builds up in the reactor core and forms an EMP charge, said charge can be drained into batteries or dumped out into space

engine rant: (probably how ship engines function, by dumping that plasma out it is used to feed somekind of magnetic anomaly/device at the rear of the ship that in turn pushes the ship forward/sideways/backwards)

Once the reactor core containing the plasma reaches a critical point, the reactors are rigged to automatically dump dangerous quantities of EMPs BEFORE they can inflict irreversible damage to the ship and its systems or even fry the crew alive from the sheer voltage...

TL:DR

0 flux boost occurs when ship reactor is running as intended, excess stress/power output causes automated safeties to kick in to ensure maximum safety of reactor operation...


KEEP IN MIND that is me trying to make (at least scenaristic) sense of something that was CLEARLY NOT thought of when the game was being made
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CorsairZero

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Re: 0-flux speed boost question about realism
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2021, 10:49:07 AM »

If that would be true you could probably cause a Maairath by running an SO Tempest and flying it straight down into a planet

(or even better yet prometheus lol, cause mass extinction)

There are additional factors/mechanics to consider when an object, such as an SS spaceship, enters a planet's atmosphere from space which could prevent it from doing much damage as a bullet/bomb. Things like deceleration and damage and extreme temperature changes from things like friction, air/gas resistance. The kind of things that cause asteroids to burn and break apart in Earth's atmosphere before they can hit the surface.

But, in addition to not being an aerospace engineer or spending a significant amount of my time trying to understand the underlying mechanics of the matter and energy and forces of the non-fictional universe or whatever, I also ain't no professional scientist.
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CorsairZero

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Re: 0-flux speed boost question about realism
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2021, 11:12:27 AM »

TL:DR

0 flux boost occurs when ship reactor is running as intended, excess stress/power output causes automated safeties to kick in to ensure maximum safety of reactor operation...

KEEP IN MIND that is me trying to make (at least scenaristic) sense of something that was CLEARLY NOT thought of when the game was being made

My issue wasn't that at 0 flux a space ship in SS receives a speed boost. (Or trying to figure out why a speed boost occurred in the first place.)
My issue was that at 0 flux a space ship in SS receives a flat speed boost of 50 s.u. instead of a speed boost based on a percentage of the ship's max speed (since SS's hyperspace has max speed), or a percentage of the ship's max acceleration (if the ships were in normal space, where there shouldn't be gameplay-effecting limitations on speed, unless it's really close to a source of gravitational pull).

But the game's spaceship combat takes place mainly (or always?) in hyperspace, not standard space, so I consider my original question (self-)answered or close to null.
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SCC

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Re: 0-flux speed boost question about realism
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2021, 11:15:00 AM »

But the game's spaceship combat takes place mainly (or always?) in hyperspace, not standard space, so I consider my original question (self-)answered or close to null.
You never fight anything when in system? I don't think I've ever fought anyone in hyperspace in this release yet.

hydremajor

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Re: 0-flux speed boost question about realism
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2021, 11:19:03 AM »


My issue was that at 0 flux a space ship in SS receives a flat speed boost of 50 s.u.

OOOoooh...

Easy: its for game balance

Its a video game, don't expect common sense, just look at ARMA 3 and its physics....
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Thaago

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Re: 0-flux speed boost question about realism
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2021, 11:26:41 AM »

I always thought the reason for the speed boost being flat was for it to be useful for big slow ships. The 0 bonus was implemented before SO was a thing, so back then the only way to get the bonus was to be completely out of combat. Completely out of combat is boring gameplay, so a speed boost lets ships get back into combat faster, and big ships need a flat bonus rather than a %. The situation has changed a little bit since then with SO and occasional skills that allow it to be used while fighting, but the flat bonus still works for the original purpose.

IMO all speed bonuses should be flat rather than percentage.
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CorsairZero

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Re: 0-flux speed boost question about realism
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2021, 11:28:41 AM »

You never fight anything when in system? I don't think I've ever fought anyone in hyperspace in this release yet.

Most of my combat takes place in-system.
Because it only takes days (instead of months/years) to travel between planets while in a system, I'm assuming the fleets would have to be using hyperspace even while in-system to move that fast between the planets (but we, the player don't have to deal with the normal gameplay elements that brings). If instead, in-system travel is so fast because the ships are just way more advanced than I thought, and most combat does not take place in hyperspace, I'd have to throw my hand up and say SS is high fantasy/goofy BS and stop engaging with it critically, like Doom or Bebop.

And it feels like I'm having to jump through too many mental hoops to make the "it's mainly in hyperspace" model/argument work.

Damn it.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2021, 11:33:25 AM by CorsairZero »
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