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Author Topic: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!  (Read 23238 times)

Grievous69

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Re: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2021, 02:37:53 AM »

I love how people defending Shrikes put the most emphasis on "it's cheap". Well it's not cheap if it dies every second battle. There's not a single scenario where Shrike would be a better pick than a Scarab or Tempest, assuming one has access to all and enough money (it's not even that big of a difference).

@Randaru
Good point about having fresh opinions, I still remember how every time someone mentions Conquest as a horrible ship the thread gets 10 pages of heated discussion. Weapon tier lists probably won't spark the same amount of drama but it can still be amusing.
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isyourmojofly

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Re: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2021, 04:32:31 AM »

Oh, dude, the Lasher is a really decent little frigate! Safety Overrides, MGs and assault guns combine with the accelerate ammo feeder to make this thing a mean little piranha of a frigate. Even without that, it's still a fairly sturdy utility frigate. Lasher isn't as good as the Hi Tech kids, but of course this is compensated in campaign play by it being substantially cheaper and easier to obtain.
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Locklave

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Re: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2021, 04:51:06 AM »

Oh, dude, the Lasher is a really decent little frigate! Safety Overrides, MGs and assault guns combine with the accelerate ammo feeder to make this thing a mean little piranha of a frigate. Even without that, it's still a fairly sturdy utility frigate. Lasher isn't as good as the Hi Tech kids, but of course this is compensated in campaign play by it being substantially cheaper and easier to obtain.

Lasher is only cheaper to obtain then a Tempest, not easier to obtain. Tempest is rather common.
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RustyCabbage

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Re: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2021, 08:07:59 AM »

I love how people defending Shrikes put the most emphasis on "it's cheap". Well it's not cheap if it dies every second battle. There's not a single scenario where Shrike would be a better pick than a Scarab or Tempest, assuming one has access to all and enough money (it's not even that big of a difference).
Just build better Shrikes. 8)
It's still a medium missile/converted hangar platform and plasma burn lets it be competitive with the other two when chasing and punching down, and it has pretty solid shields in all honesty. If you're not running Wolf Pack you're slightly overestimating Tempests and Scarabs.

FooF

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Re: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2021, 08:50:04 AM »

For Shrikes in particular, I don't think they deserve to be in C tier... they have good missiles (high missiles/DP ratio too) and decent guns as long as you don't use a heavy blaster! Heavy blaster on a Shrike is a trap! In cost, burn, and DP they are more "big frigates" than anything else in role, but they are very competent in that role.

Wolfpack Tactics and Gunnery Implants (Elite) really undermine the "big frigate" perception, though. It doesn't gain any of the bonuses similarly DP'd Frigates get by virtue of being a frigate but still operates similarly to one. Prior to .95, I'd say the differences weren't worth mentioning but now? The game really incentivizes Frigates over Destroyers for the same DP.

It's similar to what I've said before in other threads, in a vacuum, the Shrike really isn't that bad but it's just not competitive in the meta-game. I'd rather spend a few more DP for a "real" Destroyer or use a skill point to make my premier frigates better.

« Last Edit: September 03, 2021, 12:18:47 PM by FooF »
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Grievous69

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Re: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2021, 09:19:06 AM »

It's similar to what I've said before in other threads, in a vacuum, the Shrike really isn't that bad but it's just competitive in the meta-game. I'd rather spend a few more DP for a "real" Destroyer or use a skill point to make my premier frigates better.
Pretty much. I also don't think it's horrible but other options are much more reliable that as soon as I find an alternative, I ditch the Shrikes. The thing is, buffs for energy weapons helped ships that were struggling, and also made ships that were decent now very strong. Both Shrike and Wolf have more efficient assault options now but so does everything else.
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Sozzer

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Re: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2021, 09:46:27 AM »

I think that most of this is... "fine" opinions, in that a lot of the ships listed are more matters of taste than of actual raw performance (especially when you're inexperienced, where you'll mostly find that the ships you happen to take better to are the ones you get the most out of barring really strong stuff), but I'll note that the Shrike, Venture, Lasher, Shepherd, and Ziggurat are all ratings I strongly disagree with.

Shrike - In AI hands, a bit too suicidal to be ideal, for sure. But with an experienced player and a good fit, it can punch miles above its deployment weight, even compared to other ships in player hands, and especially considering its relatively easy availability in the earlygame.

Shepherd - Really doesn't deserve to be relegated to C-Tier just because it's not exceptional lategame. Earlygame, it's incredibly cheap, efficient, reliable, the drones are a deceptively handy support to keep shield pressure so the AI makes riskier decisions, and it's just all-around a handy pick.

Lasher - Impressively tough for its size and can dish out some NASTY ballistic firepower. I'd honestly say it's about on par with a wolf if you're using it well, the wolf is just going to be easier to get the most out of thanks to the AI having easy options to escape.

Venture - Yeah, it's never going to be the best brawler. Its killing power on its own is pretty poor at the best of times. But it is an absolutely insane brick. You can absolutely make it into a cheaply-deployed unkillable anchor with armour-per-section comparable to or even exceeding an Onslaught (keep in mind that while it may have a lower base value, it's spread over a smaller area, so it can reach some NASTY values), and it'll eat an ungodly amount of fire without breaking a sweat.

Ziggurat - Honestly, this one's purely a matter of skill. The motes can be immensely dangerous once you get good at using them; it just takes a bit of practice. The armament is also plenty powerful, and the phasing can be used to great advantage if you pilot phase ships more (and, moreover, if you pilot them and play them more directly, rather than playing them 100% around their systems - it'll make it much easier to learn how to use PHASE rather than the specific ships).

Oh, also the Gemini isn't "civilian-turned-military" - Venture is a rugged civilian ship designed to hold up acceptably in a fight, so its inclusion is fair enough, but the Gemini flight deck is frankly just a defensive asset, not something that makes it a carrier.
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Thaago

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Re: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2021, 09:58:00 AM »

...

Venture - Yeah, it's never going to be the best brawler. Its killing power on its own is pretty poor at the best of times. But it is an absolutely insane brick. You can absolutely make it into a cheaply-deployed unkillable anchor with armour-per-section comparable to or even exceeding an Onslaught (keep in mind that while it may have a lower base value, it's spread over a smaller area, so it can reach some NASTY values), and it'll eat an ungodly amount of fire without breaking a sweat.

...

Unfortunately thats not how armor works. Each cell in the armor grid gets 1/15 of the rated armor value, and then the damage from each hit is spread out over neighbors and nearest neighbors at a 2:1 ratio which sums to 15, so damage has to deal with the full rated value. This means that physically larger ships have more total armor, though of course only 1 section needs to fail for a ship to take hull damage and die.
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Sozzer

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Re: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2021, 10:04:35 AM »

snip

Unfortunately thats not how armor works. Each cell in the armor grid gets 1/15 of the rated armor value, and then the damage from each hit is spread out over neighbors and nearest neighbors at a 2:1 ratio which sums to 15, so damage has to deal with the full rated value. This means that physically larger ships have more total armor, though of course only 1 section needs to fail for a ship to take hull damage and die.

Isn't it? I could've sworn it was. It being broken down by 1/15 regardless of size is a bit odd, honestly.
Either way, the point stands for the Venture - I think I have a screenshot somewhere of me managing to get it to... 2328 armour, IIRC? With modded hullmods mind, but even so, it's just got so, so much base armour and barely needs to spend OP on anything but more of that.

EDIT: Yep. 2328 armour, 19250 hull. 750 less hull and 578 more armour than a baseline onslaught.
DOUBLE EDIT: Only 1 modded hullmod lmao. CCH from Vayra's. Otherwise, all Vanilla - Assault Package on a Venture, especially with the skill buff, is just... insane.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2021, 10:07:39 AM by Sozzer »
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Thaago

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Re: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2021, 10:17:20 AM »

Yeah your point about it being an absolute brick when built for it stands :). I was just being pedantic about mechanics!
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SCC

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Re: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2021, 10:38:31 AM »

483 718 HULL POINTS

TLW

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Re: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2021, 11:01:00 AM »

Shrike - In AI hands, a bit too suicidal to be ideal, for sure. But with an experienced player [...]
I think this is part of the disagreements. Really, any such guide "should" be broken down with separate ratings for player and AI control. Otherwise you get person A saying ship X is terrible (because it is, in AI hands) and person B saying ship X is great (because it is, in player hands), and them largely taking past each other because they are both assuming the other person uses said ship in the same manner they do.
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Thaago

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Re: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2021, 11:49:29 AM »

I find AI shrikes to be survivable as long as I don't give them reckless officers and be very careful with eliminate orders. Its shield is strong but narrow, and its hull is paper, so I don't want it to be ignoring other threats when it goes after a target. As long as it doesn't have a heavy blaster (I'm on a personal crusade to remove heavy blasters from every shrike) then its surprisingly decent against fighters as well just because its going to have good turret coverage of high precision weapons and probably an ion cannon as well.
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Daynen

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Re: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2021, 11:59:27 AM »

First off, for one for whom English is not your first language, you're doing pretty damn good with it.  I see nothing worse in your text than I'd see on a typical board or chatroom.  I could correct a few grammatical weaknesses, but you did your best in good faith so I see no need to nitpick here.  Secondly, you put the Atlas mk II in the A-tier.  YOU, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar and I tip my hat to you for recognizing an underappreciated beauty.

You may stay.
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lz14

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Re: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2021, 06:51:16 PM »

Aurora does look poor with only 2 awkward medium energy slots and costing 30dp.

There are no good long range medium energy weapons.
Hence the power of Aurora comes with its speed and short range. Put Safety Overide on it and 4x antimatter blaster on the forward facing small energy.  You'll find it's the fastest killing ship there is. Only Radiant may kill faster. AI also pilots this ship perfectly. 

SO Aurora with NO officer is already S tier.
Doom is only S tier with a system skill officer.
Champion kills much more slowly, if at all in AI hands. No officer skills can bring it up a tier either. It's only A tier.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2021, 07:01:55 PM by lz14 »
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