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Author Topic: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!  (Read 23226 times)

Randaru

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A Noob's Insight on: Ships!
« on: September 02, 2021, 10:21:12 AM »

Intro:

After joining the community and snooping around in Discord channel, I've decided to create a little fun discussion topic on the forum by providing my insight regarding Starsector's balance as a first-time player and an over-analyzer. Forum's community seems to be filled with seasoned Starsector veterans to the brim, so I want to share my newbie's opinion, and compare it to those who probably know better than I do, in this thread. All and all, hopefully, I will be able to spark a discussion and maybe even get some criticism that I (and other readers, too) can use to improve decision making when further exploring possibilities of this game.
For reference, I've only done one playthrough of about 80-100 hours, with some branching savefiles where I tinkered with the files themselves to try out new stuff I wouldn't otherwise get on my main save legitimately. Hopefully, the more biases I have, the more people will come to say how wrong I am and how I should probably uninstall, which I will be more than happy to hear.
Also an obligatory disclaimer that I am not a native English speaker, not have I ever studied it, so I bear no responsibility for any brain damage my gibberish may cause you.


Now that's out of the way, allow me to explain how I wanna do this. This thread is about the core of Starsector gameplay, which is, obviously, ships! So, I've constructed it in a (hopefully) comprehensive ranking order, where I try to rank all the ships within their respective class in a usual manner familiar to pretty much every gamer under the sun - a tier list. Starting with the best S-tier, with exceptional ships, going down to A with solid picks and down the alphabet, ending up with D-tier, filled with outclassed ship hull options.
So, before we start, let's define what makes a ship good. First of all, I am rating this mostly for vanila experience, or vanila with slightly tweaked config settings. So, the main point is value to the player's basic fleet composition: how cheap is it to deploy and how good is it for what it's worth. Second of all, I exclude all the fun factors out of the equasion. There is no "unusable trash tier" in my list, as you can make all but a few of the ships function to an extent, and the player should absolutely play what they find enjoyable first and foremost. Elaborating further on the criteria, we can divide it into distinct sections in which each ship can be evaluated at.

Combat stats: How good the craft is on its own. This includes its weapons and systems, amount of hullmods it can fit, flux and shield stats, speed, and so on. Basically, how good is it against other ships, and how good is it at supporting the rest of your fleet and synergizing with other members of your team, meaning, other ships in your fleet composition. How friendly AI is gonna use the ship also plays a significant role in its placement. This section is obviously the most valuable; to hit an elusive S-rank, the ship must be either good at most, or even all matchups, or be exceptional at what it does when supporting other ships of your fleet, or playing otherwise important role in your victory. Being able to win easy fights good doesn't earn a ship much credit, but punching way above its weight (and numbers) certainly does.

Deployment stats: How cheap is it to deploy, and, to a much lesser extent, how cheap is it to maintain on the global map. Aiming for maximum vanila battle size or slightly higher, this basically means - how many more ships can you deploy after the vessel in question, especially when outnumbered, which is the main purpose of this section, and why it is a close second on this list of values. Basically, costing cheap and punching way above its DP cost earns ship a lot of points in its rating. Being cheap and expendable trash, however, does not, since the player is also somewhat limited by fleet size, so overwhelming the opponent with garbage is a pretty poor strategy in the long run.

Additional combat utility: This is mostly miscellaneous stuff, or very specific scenarios. How well can your big ships fight enemy stations? How well does your ship run down retreating enemies? Does your freighter double as a combat unit(more on that later)? Basically, this is ship's global versatility of what it can do in various combat scenarios. It earns some points if the ship excels at it, but it can also lose ships some ranking if they can't perform various tasks that one would expect them to perform.

Accessibility: Let me clarify two things. Firstly, monetary price has little value in this list (since even if a noob like me is swimming in money, so will more competent and experienced players), unless it's so accessible you can get it pretty much right after starting the game. Secondly, how you find the ship in the world only has any bearing on its rating if it's something exceptionally rare or heavily RNG-dependent. Also, being at earlier stages of the game doesn't change rating much as hull sizes go up, since if you want to go for what's "good" as soon as possible, you can just pick what's best from "Frigates" dollar menu. Also, one of the main points of this section is skills, you and your officers included. If it needs specific skills to function that lock you out of more powerful options later down the line, or if it requires specific officer skills to be good, without providing equally valuable return in other sections - this is a very good way to get knocked down a tier.

Design variation: If there are two designs of the same hull that are more or less equally common, and one outperforms the other in all aspects - the inferior design automatically earns a D-tier, for the virtue of being totally outmatched. Although I do think that you should use XIV designs over stock ones wherever possible, they are exempt from this rule due to them being somewhat RNG-dependent to get, and not having that massive of an advantage over stock for the latter to be overlooked when the former is absent.


Oh, and another thing. I will rate all the dedicated freighters, right now, with a simple rule of thumb: the bigger - the better. Simply slap "Militarized Subsystems", "Augmented Drive Field" and "Efficiency Overhaul" on each of your chonky boys, preferably by building the most expensive ones in, to both have more efficient supply and fuel usage for when you actually start getting your fleet rolling, and to free up some space for valuable combat ships.

Now that's all the rating criteria has been defined, let's jump right in. Starting with capital ships and down the size, I'll rank them all relative to each other, giving my thoughts on each ship's placement on the list - because, again, the whole point of me doing this is having my opinions challenged. So, without further ado...

CAPITALS
Spoiler
S-tier

Radiant: To nobody's surprise, the remnant battleship outclasses everything else in this game combat-wise. Even despite requiring some massive investments in skills just to field a single one of these in your fleet, this is the single best ship you can possibly have. Paragon-level stats and shields, better-than-Paragon weapon slots and layout, with more loadout versatility - and all for only two thirds of Paragon's deployment price. After reading the blogposts on the forum, I began counting days until we're allowed to pilot these bad boys ourselves - let's just hope we aren't getting a severely neutered version in the process. This very ship is the sole reason why every other automated ship is missing from the list entirely: I would have ended up repeating myself over and over on every single entry with "save your automated ship DP for the Radiant".

Astral: This is easily the best thing you can have in your backline. Armed with all anti-shield and anti-armor tools you'll ever need, both fighter-based and missile-based, this ship never has to engage in close combat to pull its own weight in your fleet composition, unlike most other carriers. It's especially good at station-busting, when you have other ships to facetank it for your fighters to be able to get close. Astral is what I think to be the perfect design for a carrier: heavily specialized, but earns its worth back tenfold when you can play around negating its weaknesses with your strategic decision-making skills.

A-tier

Paragon: A staple of a good battleship statline all across the board, with the best range in the game - I'd say, 60DP cost is more than justified. It performs as one-and-half a battleship against 40DP counterparts, as you would expect, but, unlike other battleships, it decimates every smaller class on the battlefield without a chance due to its superior range and precision. I think this is an overall well-designed and well-banalnced "endgame" ship you would give to your officers, that works well both on its own, and in battle line formation.

Atlas Mk.II: You probably didn't expect me to put it here - hell, I certainly didn't. But, hear me out. Despite only working in already well-established battle line due to its poor flux dissipation to sustain its shields and weapon systems to survive on its own, it only costs 24DP to deploy, while providing ranged firepower of almost 40DP capital ship levels due to how its system functions. It also doubles as a missile-heavy warship, which means it can also support a messy frontline formation without needing much of a line of sight or being in a way of their retreat. I've heard people call it "Poor man's Conquest", and, judging by how much it costs to deploy, and how early into playthrough you can get one of these, I couldn't agree more.

Onslaught, Onslaught XIV: This is what overwhelming firepower looks like. This is easily the best rushdown capital-sized spacecraft money can buy. This is also the ship you can just slam your face into keyboard and win almost any 1v1 engagement with. Onslaught combines both shield-breaking and hull-breaking weapons in its arsenal, has decent missile coverage, and comes with a ton of OP (ordinance points) to install every flavor hullmod of your choosing and then some - and that's after you filled every possible weapon hardpoint. Despite its shield being nothing special, its hull and armor are extremely tanky, and being unable to disengage from the fight or track important targets behind its back can be easily countered by good fleet engagement strategies.

B-tier

Conquest: This is a very mobile and very heavily missile-oriented battleship, that's best used in a drive-by approach to make the most use of its speed and broadside layout, while negating its main downside of having easily the worst shield of all "expensive" capital ships. And this is where, I think, Conquest falls flat, earning itself only a B-tier of being mostly decent, but somewhat situational: it's very confusing to the friendly AI that values good statline over what ship was designed for; they either decide that Leeroy-Jenkins-charging an Onslaught face to face with pretty much no chance of winning is a good idea, or that their ship is too weak to do anything and that they'd rather chill in the backline, having 40DP you've spent on deployment go to waste. Also, broadside layout, combined with rather sparse OP pool, makes it somewhat tricky to customize. All and all, this ship can be pretty powerful in prolonged fights when piloted by the player with a good skill build, but when it comes to 40DP capital ships, Conquest's performance is painfully mediocre, especially in the hands of an AI.

Odyssey: -"Is this a broadside gunline ship, a missile ship, or a carrier?" -"Yes." While being a solid craft for taking care of your formation's flanks, Odyssey is versatile to its own detriment. It does have shields and flux stats slightly above average for the class, but mishmash of different weaponry (that all require their own separate skills to be efficient, mind you) slapped on top of a Frankensteinian hull design with a single broadside usable for main weapons is confusing enough for the player, let alone for AI. And it costing 45DP instead of usual 40 is just a cherry of dissonance on top of this confusion cake of a ship.

C-tier

Ziggurat: It's strong, but it's not "75DP, 50%CR" strong. It's good, but it's not "Radiant" good. Its main power is station busting, and it can't even do that proper, since it cannot be used in stealth raids due to being easily recognizable by every faction even when your transponder is offline. And, unlike most phase ships, it requires both phasing skills to even function on a basic level. With all its unique quirks, great close combat bursts and disturbingly good synergy with Omega weapons, if this ship had costed 50DP and 25%CR to deploy, it would have easily been an A-tier candidate. But as it is, Ziggurat's only hope of beating a Radiant (that costs half as many DP, by the way) is that the Radiant isn't armed with any kind of EMP beam, and still that's only because the AI doesn't know how to play around your motes system. Personally, I only whip this bad boy out when it's time to dumpster another pirate station or Luddic cell, or when I specifically intend to hunt down a singular Remnant ordo, since any scenario that involves prolonged use and consecutive deployments is way out of this ship's abilities (but, unfortunately, well within its pay grade). To me, Ziggurat feels more like a collection item, rather than the ultimate flagship a player can get.

Legion, Legion XIV: This ship can survive some punishment, but its fighters certainly won't. And that's the main flaw of this ship's design, earning its place as a resident of C-tier on my list. This is a 40DP capital carrier ship, but, unlike its counterpart hanging up there in S-tier, Legion trades specializing in fighters to being a jack of all trades, having decent amount of fighter bays and also decent main armaments. This raises a simple question: "how exactly are you supposed to use this ship to justify fielding it?"; neither amount of flight decks, nor your ship system can justify using it as a dedicated carrier worth 40DP, but when you throw it in combat, where Legion is fairly mediocre at best, all of your fighters now just get murdered as soon as they get replaced simply by virtue of being close to where everything explodes. This (and somewhat tricky OP pool) make bombers, which dominate among dedicated carriers, a poor choice, which, in turn, makes deploying a Legion over something else in its class, a questionable decision.

D-tier

Prometheus Mk.II: What do you get if you design a ship that becomes useless because there is at least one EMP beam in enemy fleet? That's right, you get this abomination. And I say this as a player who put another "makeshift" design, Atlas Mk.II, way up in A-tier. Prometheus has shields and flux stats on par with Atlas in how underwhelming they are, and weapon layout even worse than that of Atlas. So, it's intended to charge into the enemy battle line with shields up while firing rockets (like, you know, every Luddic Path ship does), where it will quickly lose its shields, then get disabled by an EMP and focused down by other ships due to being fairly squishy. Then why the hell does it cost exponentially more than Atlas to deploy, close to the same bracket where you have ships like Onslaught that will easily wipe the floor with Prometheus before losing a fraction of their shields? That remains mystery to me, while Prometheus Mk.II remains a mysterious stain at the very bottom rank of all capital ships.
[close]
CRUISERS
Spoiler
S-tier

Doom: Again, to nobody's surprise, it's the one, the only, Killer Queen morphed into a ship, at the very top of the S-tier, and my personal favorite. This ship is the staple of how much value a player should get out of going in a non-conventional route in building their skills. It's also the staple of how to make a ship that can have so many different weapon loadouts and still be on top of its game with every single one. Despite a good chunk of its strategic value coming out of AI's interactions with its main ship system, Doom nonetheless turns you into a mastermind with extensive control over the battlefield and general flow of combat, limited only by how well you know your opponents' reaction to both your ship's and your mines' placement. On the side note, I think that this ship's main balancing factor is how non-spammable it is, and how poorly it performs in the hands of an AI unless it's already on the winning side, and reading the latest blogpost has hurt my soul, knowing that such unique playstyle is about to be all gone and forgotten.

Apogee: My second personal favorite ship, two of which, even deep into the lategame and several battle size config tweaks later, I simply refuse to replace in my fleet or remove my best officers from them. Its firepower is on the higher end of the class, but nothing special. However, Apogee's shields are easily the best in its entire class, and its flux is also outstanding. And, best of all, it is one of the cheapest cruisers to deploy, despite already aiming to be one of the most expensive ones. Its quality of life parameters are also noteworthy, with good self-sustaining cargo/fuel/crew compartments, on top of having built-in survey hullmods just for a convenience of packing less supplies for survey expeditions. The only downsides of Apogee that I can think of are its mediocre OP pool which makes it tricky to sustain its main plasma cannon (because what else are you going to mount on this beast), and the AI officer sometimes (rightfully so) decides that they're invincible, and proceeds to charge into a Radiant, surviving for surprisingly long, but blocking your entire fleet from focusing a high value target nonetheless.

Champion: Amazing statline and weapon hardpoints all across the board, with decent speed and maneuverability, plus an above average shield. Has some decent OP to work with, despite weaponry not requiring that much of an investment either, topped off with an adequate DP cost. Champion is, in my opinion, a perfect jack of all trades in Starsector: instead of having all the mechanics in the game mashed together in a chaotic concoction (looking at you, Odyssey), Champion has a well thought out dual energy/missile hardpoint combo with some support weaponry options on top, which ends up universally applicable against all matchups in a single player/officer build.

A-tier

Gryphon: An average cost missile ship with some limited ballistic weaponry that can be used either as long-range fleet support, or heavy-hitting rushdown that can quickly eliminate key targets when piloted by the player. It doesn't do well in prolonged fights, neither it survives for long under heavy enemy fire, but there's something about obliterating a capital ship with heavy explosives within seconds for half its deployment cost that speaks to me on a spiritual level with Gryphon.

Eagle, Eagle XIV: A staple of any rushdown fleet composition, Eagle is used best at singling out and subsequently eliminating enemy ships one by one. Obviously designed with the intention of being equally damaging against freshly shielded ships at zero flux, and exposed overloaded opponents alike, Eagle is a go-to when I want to win quickly even against overwhelming odds. Also, my script wants me to "say something about Safety Overrides", so here you go.

Dominator, Dominator XIV: The opposite of Eagle, and Onslaught's little brother, Dominator is your main gunline cruiser. Heavy armor, heavy guns, heavy hull that will take a while to get where you need it be. It shreds enemy shields and hulls on a variety of engagement ranges, but the ship itself is also poorly defended from harassment or focused fire, with some of the weakest shields in its class, as well as non-existent maneuverability, turn rate and flux dissipation; it is not, however, as helpless at one on one close range engagement as Atlas Mk.II; all and all, when you have its six, Dominator a good addition to your battle line formations.

Heron: A dedicated carrier, with dedicated carrier ship system, and not-at-all dedicated carrier engines that allow you to run away and stay alive against heavier enemy ships. Cheap to deploy and maintain, too. I haven't used this ship much, but I assume your OP pool would prove somewhat tricky to work with if you want to add some firepower to the equation.

B-tier

Mora: Right below the other carrier in this class, both in script and on the tier list, we have Mora, the punching bag of all carriers. Just like its big brother Legion, compared to Heron it trades fighter power and survivability to personal power and survivability. Unlike its big brother Legion, however, for the price of 40DP you can deploy two of these, and get two fighter bays more and higher replacement rate for the same price, so they are actually usable as proper carriers, and not just punching bags for your enemy, hence higher tier placement.

Falcon, Falcon P, Falcon XIV: A lighter Eagle that trades bulkiness and firepower for speed, allowing it to chase down and destroy smaller enemy vessels. Despite not being the primary role of cruisers, should you choose overwhelming smaller crafts like destroyers, or run routing enemy freighters down, with equally fast, but much heavier weight class ships, Falcon is the go-to hull design for you.

Fury: It's practically Falcon, but trades firepower superiority for better shields, while also being faster than Apogee to pull off escort orders. I've got quite some mileage out of one of these in my earlygame and replaced it soon after, but I can see why combining speed with survivability can bring situational value for those moments when you need your frontline reinforced, and you need it NOW. Ship's average, but deployment's cheap, so I have nothing to complain about.

C-tier

Aurora: Only volturnian lobster gods know what stopped me from putting this piece of work into D class. Maybe it's because weapons are at least somewhat decent, albeit they mostly face in completely random directions. Or because you can actually use it as a rushdown ship to quickly dispose of one key target per game, even if it's a capital ship, while getting very little help from your own fleet. All that and nothing more, for the cost of almost two Apogees. For the same price, two Furies will decimate this ship without so much of an effort, considering each one of them have almost the same shields as Aurora does.

D-tier

Venture: This ship was designed to be a piece of crap, and, hey, it succeeds! As a civilian-converted-military vessel, it performs exactly as you would expect it to perform. I've only tried it in a couple of simulations, and haven't seen it actually win against dedicated combat ships of the same deployment cost.

Colossus Mk.II, Colossus Mk.III: If you thought I put too much value on ships being too cheap to deploy, well, here is your proof of the opposite. Yes, I know they are technically different ships; no, I do not care. One is a torpedo ship, the other is a carrier, both are equally worthless meatshields that can barely fend themselves against frigates. If you don't intend to use Fighter Uplink skill, Mk.III variant can be used as a more cargo-oriented substitute for Valkyrie in your fleet with some contraband hiding capabilities, but in a combat scenario, I would never deploy any of these even if I had them in my fleet for whatever reason.
[close]
DESTROYERS
Spoiler
S-tier

Harbinger: Whereas Doom is a ship that has great strategic value in the hands of a competent player, Harbinger is a ship that is completely busted by design, no matter which hands we are talking about. All but the most powerful capital ships with specifically beam weapons have absolutely no counterplay options against this ship's main system. One could argue that this thing can 1v1 literally every other ship in the game, with only a select few specific loadouts that even stand a chance against it. It's not a good gunline ship, nor is it conveniently spammable by the player (albeit very dangerous when spammed by enemy AI), but when 20DP can obliterate practically any "boss" ship of this game without so much of an effort, you know something is wrong with the core design of whatever it is you deploy with them.

Sunder: I actually hated this ship for its performance, until I realized that I expected it to perform on 20DP cruiser levels, and every single time Sunder just barely missed the bar I've set. And this is basically what Sunder is, a cruiser with slightly worse stats, but only for a fraction of a cost. It can't boast insane survivability due to somewhat underwhelming shields even by destroyer standards, but where Sunder doesn't lack, is its weapons. Specifically, its main weapon, since getting a large hardpoint on a destroyer is rather unique; also, on top of having two extra medium hardpoints, Sunder also boasts a motherlode of OP, so deploying the heaviest weapon you can has barely any bearing on hullmods you install on top of it all, as long as your flux can sustain all of that firepower.

Medusa: Rush enemies down, run enemies down, for when you need to combine mobility and sheer burst firepower at close range, Medusa is the best for the job. I didn't expect a skimmer to have such powerful shields, nor did I anticipate it having extra shield-breaking power due to having ballistic slots, yet, here it is. Unless you use a wolfpack fleet build, having a couple of Medusas over half a dozen of frigates in your roster is usually a superior choice for when your "big boy" ship count is already about to reach its limit.

A-tier

Enforcer, Enforcer P, Enforcer XIV: Good medium range burst firepower for only 9DP, however, this ship is pretty bad at surviving, especially in battle lines against bigger crafts. They're very good for progression, you can get these practically everywhere, and they don't cost that much to maintain and deploy for when you need to fill your fleet with something relatively decent.

Hammerhead: When you think "Destroyer", you probably think "Hammerhead". Accessible, cheap, easy to use, easy to outfit, easy to give to an AI pilot, fairly well defended and suited to engage targets at all but longest ranges, and also very self-sufficient when left to its own devices.

Drover: A primary bomber carrier or heavy remnant drone launcher for when you need to hit that Fighter Uplink flight deck softcap without using an Odyssey. Can actually fend for itself against frigates without recalling its fighters, if you give it railguns and Integrated Targeting Unit hull module.

B-tier

Condor: This combination of carrier and support rocket ship is the easiest to acquire and deploy, and the only thing keeping it from being A-tier is the abysmal amount of OP it lets you work with. Still, it allows you to start annoying your enemies with constant bomber+Pilum spam pretty much as soon as you begin your playthrough, so no complaints there.

Mule P: This is another ship I bet nobody expected this high. It's basically a cargo ship that lets you hide contraband for when you still rely on trading, but it's also dirt cheap to deploy, as well as beefy enough to be thrown in as a meatshield in a pinch. It also has enough OP to get it some shield-busting weaponry and missiles, as well as Integrated Targeting Unit, and even some half-decent vents to top it off. I have personally used it up until I literally had no more need to trade, and threw it into combat against everything, even remnant ordos, countless times. If you have no problem with stop-searches, however, I don't recommend having this in your fleet.

C-tier

Shrike: -"What if... *hits blunt* ...frigate, but bigger, slower, more expensive, and can't be used in wolfpack builds?... This is what Shrike, unfortunately, is. Statline and weapons of a mediocre frigate, speed, hull size and deployment cost of a destroyer. Unless you pilot it yourself to get some strategic usage out of that medium missile you get, I don't see why would you decisively include this in your fleet if performance is your only concern.

D-tier

Gemini: Another civilian-turned-military hull with questionable combat capabilities, but this time for destroyer class, and turned into a carrier. Costs a lot to deploy even for an intentionally worthless ship - even more expensive than Colossus Mk.III, which also happens to be more valuable when deployed than this vessel. Has half-decent shields, but not enough flux to support them.

Buffalo Mk.II: Can barely fight against shuttle frigates. Has survivability of a paper plane. Costs accordingly. Doesn't even double as a freighter.

Mule, Shrike P: Outclassed design variants that are as easy to get as their counterparts automatically receive D-tier as per rules of this list.
[close]
FRIGATES
Spoiler
S-tier

Tempest: A clear winner for the meanest wolfpack stack, the closest this ship has to a downside is messing up your Fighter Uplink count with its built-in point defense drones that come completely free of charge. Yes, it's on a more expensive side to deploy, but, firstly, cost doesn't matter in a wolfpack, and, secondly, it probably wouldn't matter in bigger fleets either, since these would be mostly deployed to fight other frigates, and oh boy do Tempests excel at that. I build them mostly for Phase Lance salvos, which allows them to overload any frigate mono-o-mono, or dogpile and quickly dispose of a larger ship, without having to rely on hard flux or attrition strategies.

Brawler, Brawler TT: Better shield-breaking or better overall statline, these two Brawler designs are the heavy lifters of frigate class. They sport destroyer-level weaponry and almost destroyer-level shields, but cost only 6 DP each to deploy. Just like Tempests, they are very good at fighting enemy frigates, but unlike Tempests, they would actually be more valuable outside of wolfpack builds, unless you already have your fleet filled with bigger ships to the brim, and have to allocate all of your frigate roles to a couple of Medusas.

Hyperion: At first, I was going to give this ship only an A-tier, for how much it costs to deploy and especially maintain. Then I've thought it through some more, and concluded that deployment costs aren't a downside to wolfpack fleets at all - and this is what primary role of this ship is, a frigate wolfpack capital ship. And I specify "capital ship" because AI can't use this ship effectively at all, and is better given something less strategic, like a Tempest. Regardless, with this vessel, you get the luxury of both having a statline of a decent destroyer with extremely powerful shields, and having a small and nimble spacecraft that activates all the wolfpack bonuses you can possibly get.

A-tier

Monitor: This is more of a cheese ship, but it's pretty good regardless. Give it slow firing weapons and some shield improvements, and your AI will often flicker its Fortress system off to shoot once, and then turn it back on for the reload, wasting enemy fleet's time on futile attempts to take down this beefy yet nimble target, in turn buying your time to make their ranks thinner for your main engagement.

Wolf, Wolf H: Another ship that buys you precious time by stealing that of your enemies. It pokes and prods slower targets in enemy fleets, forcing them to either take damage, or give chase; both are more than enough value for 5DP, granted you have some space in your fleet for these annoying bastards. Unfortunately, they seem to get snuffed out in an instant when they try to come anywhere near bigger vessels, thus, even more so than any other frigate, they lose their effectiveness as your enemies get bigger.

Brawler LP: I don't know why would you want to use Safety Overrides on a Brawler, but this one has them built in for free, on top of having a more damage-oriented ship system. I still think it's inferior to other two Brawlers, but it's not entirely outclassed, hence a pretty high rating.

B-tier

Vigilance: Despite having some considerable weapons and shields for what it costs, Vigilance, unfortunately, doesn't have any means of using more powerful close-range rockets against bigger targets. Of course, you can go the "funny" route and have them spam Pilums, but, come on...

Afflictor, Shade: Two different, but at the same time pretty similar crafts. If you have phase skills and even officer to use these, they can be extremely annoying to the enemy, but why? Why would you do any of it? Should you find them early on, even without dedicated skills they can make some of the fights much easier, but replacing them as soon as possible seems like a no-brainer to me.

Omen: -"What if... *hits blunt* ...point defense, but a ship?" Look, I know I've already used this joke, but that's what Omen literally is - a small, portable, hard to kill without heavy beam weapons, constantly moving point defense that takes up a ship slot and costs points to deploy. Maybe I would've thought of a higher rating, if it was actually reliable and easy to use as point defense escort for larger ships, but, alas. At later stages of the game, this entire thing will only cost you 7OP to stick into a small energy hardpoint, so that's one way to find a silver lining, I guess.

Scarab: Yes, I've seen older videos about Scarab, and, trust me, this shoebox with guns randomly sticking out of it is nothing like a gunnery monster in those videos. For what it's worth, it's expensive to deploy, and it can fight maybe a Shrike on a sunny Tuesday.

Centurion: Scarab, but from a discount store around the corner.

C-tier

Gremlin, Gremlin P: Like those other phase frigates, but as fleet support; I would probably avoid getting it even at earlier stages of the game.

Wayfarer: A freighter you can actually throw into a frigate combat in early game. Sometimes it even wins.

Shepherd: Looks better on paper than it actually is, since it's practically harmless when it tries to engage the enemy. Salvage bonuses it provides become obsolete very quickly, especially considering there are better salvaging ships for those high-value derelicts.

D-tier

All Kites, all Lashers, all Hounds, all Cerberus's Mercury, Hermes and whatever other shuttles I'm forgetting: To avoid sounding like a broken record, I'll just include them all together, despite there clearly being objectively better and worse options among them, since they're getting into exactly the same tier, and for exactly the same reason: they are all garbage, and are meant to be garbage to get replaced as early as the player possibly can. Unless you specifically aim for challenge/meme value, replace any of these with any of the good frigates as soon as you can, and never look back.

Afflictor P, Shade P, Wolf P, Gremlin LP: Outclassed design variants that are as easy to get as their counterparts automatically receive D-tier as per rules of this list.
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Final words:
And that about concludes my list. I would appreciate opinions and critiques of other denizens of this forum, skilled or not, ho hopefully spark a fruitful discussion or just a lobster meme tirade. Did I place your favorite ship too low, and now you're out to claim my firstborn child? Or did I miss a ship entirely? Let me know!
And, if my thread draws a lot of attention, I might do the same lists for other important aspects of Starsector, be it weapons, hullmods, skills or whatever it is people want to hear an overthinking noob's opinion on.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2021, 08:14:38 PM by Randaru »
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SCC

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Re: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2021, 10:49:42 AM »

I think I'm going to comment only on things that surprised me.

Astral in S-tier? I haven't used it in a while, but is it really as good as death god Radiant? I really doubt it could stand up to Radiant, except maybe with all the skills and player piloted, maybe.
Your description of Ziggurat is a bit confusing me; do you not know that motes can attack ships and EMP them through shields? It makes it the best dueler in the game, since if the other ship isn't shooting at you, you win flux war by walkover. It is a logistic nightmare, though, and merely a bigger Doom.

I'm surprised Fury is just B-tier. I would have easily put it in S-tier; not because it has amazing absolute stats, but because its stats for its DP are indeed brilliant. It's like having 2/3rds of an Aurora for half the price (that's 50% more Aurora per Fury than Aurora per Aurora!). You can make an endgame worthy fleet of just Furies.

I wouldn't put Drover in A-tier, but mostly because its ship system is a fighter replacement suicide button (except maybe with skills and EDC?) and that carriers aren't so good anymore.

Brawler in S-tier? Whoa. It's just a long range distraction. That's decent, but not S worthy.
Wolf in A-tier? Once it runs out of missiles, it's only a distraction. Maybe it's worth something with woofpack tictacs, but Tempest is worth a lot without that, and gets even better with that.
Omen is easy A-tier to me (it's point defence, anti-fighter, EMP, mad efficiency in one ship system! Distraction, cruiser-level shields, support, all in one ship!), since on top of respectable combat capabilities it's useful on campaign layer, too (though that one I can guess you aren't taking into consideration, just the combat capabilities).
I've heard Scarab is about Tempest power level (sometimes better, sometimes worse), but I haven't bothered to try it out.
Wayfarer not in the bottom tier? lol

Randaru

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Re: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2021, 10:56:42 AM »

Your description of Ziggurat is a bit confusing me; do you not know that motes can attack ships and EMP them through shields? It makes it the best dueler in the game, since if the other ship isn't shooting at you, you win flux war by walkover. It is a logistic nightmare, though, and merely a bigger Doom.
As I've said, it has nothing on Radiant while costing almost twice as much, and it struggles against Paragon that also costs less. I've mentioned motes and that the AI doesn't seem to know what to do about them, but even if the player was to spam their system between an empty space and the enemy ship to deploy them as quckly as possible, keeping all of the systems disabled at all times looks like an impossible task. Meanwhile, one second of getting clipped by an EMP beam and all of your weapon systems are disabled for 30 seconds. I'd honestly rather have a Paragon, or, better yet, a player-controlled Radiant - even for the same deployment cost!

I'm surprised Fury is just B-tier. I would have easily put it in S-tier; not because it has amazing absolute stats, but because its stats for its DP are indeed brilliant. It's like having 2/3rds of an Aurora for half the price (that's 50% more Aurora per Fury than Aurora per Aurora!). You can make an endgame worthy fleet of just Furies.
That was my entire reasoning... when rating Apogee in S-tier!  ;)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2021, 11:02:14 AM by Randaru »
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Grievous69

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Re: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2021, 11:26:16 AM »

Well that was actually a pretty good read, funny how it's always those who have English as their second or whatever language write more coherently than others. I'd love to see how would you rank the weapons and fighters of the game if you have free time.

Like SCC I'm just going to comment on very weird (to me) stuff since there's too much to talk about otherwise.

Atlas Mk II being in A tier while Odyssey is in B tier is just hilarious. I mean sure Atlas is a cool meme ship in early game but burn 6 kills it hard. It's basically "what if I have the design philosophy of a Sunder, but make everything about the ship bad". There's a reason why they're called pinatas. Although I agree Odyssey is a quirky ship, usually I pilot if myself so maybe I rate it higher than I would otherwise.

Hahahaha glad to see someone else shares the disappointing thoughts on Aurora, truly a definition of "overpriced".
But why are Falcons and the (P) versions clumped together? They're a VERY different ship.

God bless you for putting Sunder in S tier, I mean it.
Enforcer is a nice brick but it really doesn't deserve to be together with Hammerhead.
Shrike(P) being lower than a base Shrike is very surprising, since that ballistic slot means a lot to me. At worst I'd put them in the same tier, but I get how you're not happy with the ship's performance so I guess it makes sense.

Brawler wouldn't even be in S tier if it was 5 DP...
Ok ok this part is a mess so I'll stick everything in one sentence. What right does Wolf have to be so high up in A tier, while Scarab and Afflictor are in B tier, together with Vigilance?? I can't wrap my head around this no matter how hard I try.
Lasher being placed lower than a Wayfarer, alrighty then.

All in all this was pretty amazing for a first time player, I'd love to hear more thoughts in the future since you wrote everything in such high detail. And I'm sure this list will change once you play a bit more. Also next update will shake things up a bit balance wise so who knows for how long will this post stay relevant.
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Randaru

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Re: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2021, 11:45:56 AM »

Brawler wouldn't even be in S tier if it was 5 DP...
Ok ok this part is a mess so I'll stick everything in one sentence. What right does Wolf have to be so high up in A tier, while Scarab and Afflictor are in B tier, together with Vigilance?? I can't wrap my head around this no matter how hard I try.
Lasher being placed lower than a Wayfarer, alrighty then.

All in all this was pretty amazing for a first time player, I'd love to hear more thoughts in the future since you wrote everything in such high detail. And I'm sure this list will change once you play a bit more. Also next update will shake things up a bit balance wise so who knows for how long will this post stay relevant.

Frigate strats are overall a murky water to me, even more so with wolfpack tactics - I've tried them around, but my success was only periodical. I've mainly rated fast and annoying ships higher due to them wasting time against overwhelming opponents for long enough to even the odds and get some heat off your main battle lines. I started phasing frigates out for Medusas all together on my main savefile, so, there's that.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2021, 11:53:40 AM by Randaru »
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pairedeciseaux

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Re: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2021, 11:55:03 AM »

Quick comment,

People love to argue about ship tier list. Which can be useful because it can help people share the various strengths and weaknesses of ships, various ship outfits, and realise there is more than one way to play the game.

I would recommend new players to do several shorter playthroughs, rather than a single very long one like you did. Reasoning is: starting from scratch, player can do fleet & skills progression again, in a different way, based on different opportunities arising in the campaign and/or based on different player decisions.

This way one may play differently, have a different experience each time, and make the most of the game's replay value.

Then player may realise, there probably is a different ship tier list for each play-through, or even a different ship tier list depending on the play through stage (what use for an Onslaught during the first cycle?). Then tier list does not matter anymore, what matter is player having a good understanding of available tools, and having a good experience with the tools of his choice.

Worth remembering: Starsector creators try hard to have all/most ships being viable.
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SCC

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Re: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2021, 12:06:51 PM »

As I've said, it has nothing on Radiant while costing almost twice as much, and it struggles against Paragon that also costs less. I've mentioned motes and that the AI doesn't seem to know what to do about them, but even if the player was to spam their system between an empty space and the enemy ship to deploy them as quckly as possible, keeping all of the systems disabled at all times looks like an impossible task. Meanwhile, one second of getting clipped by an EMP beam and all of your weapon systems are disabled for 30 seconds. I'd honestly rather have a Paragon, or, better yet, a player-controlled Radiant - even for the same deployment cost!
Talking about Ziggurat's balance is a bit tricky, since there's only one, so there's a decent chance player will be at the helm, if the ship's deployed at all.
As an AI ship, I just pit a 2 Plasma Cannon, 4 Heavy Needler, 6 Reaper build against the simulator Paragon and in one fight it won while sustaining some hull damage, in the other it took none at all. Ziggurat reacted to getting clipped by an EMP beam by just phasing - that 80% phase cooldown reduction means you can do it every time you need it, unless you're fluxed out. In combat, it's AI is a bit strange, but it works well enough, it can deal with an Onslaught or two by itself just fine.
As a playership, it's maybe a bit better than Doom, so it might be able to kill everything in the game, by its lonesome. I only managed to kill nearly everything with a Doom, as I died to the last Brilliant against the unique bounty and didn't care enough to try again.

Enforcer is a nice brick but it really doesn't deserve to be together with Hammerhead.
Shrike(P) being lower than a base Shrike is very surprising, since that ballistic slot means a lot to me. At worst I'd put them in the same tier, but I get how you're not happy with the ship's performance so I guess it makes sense.
I missed that! Yeah, it's weird Shrike (P) is lower on the list than regular Shrike. Previously, (P) was obviously better. Now it's about even, mainly because balance favours high-tech more now, so that small ballistic isn't such a crutch.

Igncom1

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Re: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2021, 12:13:08 PM »

I'll avoid all the other things I could comment on and just say thanks for putting MY BOY SUNDER where he belongs!  ;D

Nothing like a BFG attack wing to escort your battleships!
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2021, 12:13:43 PM »

My thoughts, just commenting on things I significantly disagree about:

Capitals:
Spoiler
Odyssey is S-tier for me as a player ship. By far the strongest combination of mobility and firepower the player can use IMO. As an AI ship, it's more like B tier though, so in that sense I agree. I would say the same thing about Aurora, it's A tier in player hands (possibly S tier with the right omega weapons), but probably B tier for the AI. Overall I would say mobility is extremely strong, and the player can exploit it much better than the AI.

I disagree about atlas MK II. You just have to spend so much OP to compensate for the burn/sensors/bad stats you don't have enough to actually outfit it properly, and the survivability is atrocious, it just dies against strong opponents. If it had 100 more OP, I could maybe see B tier or a weak A tier.

Another disagreement: ziggurat is almost S tier in player hands with phase skills, like Solo every fleet in the game strong. The only reason zigg is not s-tier is that Doom is similarly overpowered for half the cost, but zigg has one advantage of mote EMP. If there are some annoying enemies with HIL/Tac Lance/Ion beam that are actually threatening, you can just ion them to oblivion with motes while doom can have more trouble with those enemies. The strongest part of the zigg is that its phase cloak has virtually no cool down, so you can constantly jump in/out of phase to dodge stuff. It also lets you phase in briefly to fire burst guns and then phase while your weapon cool downs come online. Basically you can be invulnerable except when you are firing, and the elite phase skill lets you be fast enough in phase to position wherever you want and vent freely. I like to run 4x HVD + 2x tac lance for 1000 range kite/sniping plus I find that the cool downs on those weapons line feel good. I started running rift lances in one campaign and was amazed at how much damage they do too.

I'm not a fan of carriers on this patch, the only exception for carriers is the legion XIV which I actually put firmly in A tier. The reason for this is that 2x hurricanes with EMR and missile spec is nuts and it can mount kinetics with decent flux stats plus it has good survivability. The fighters are really an afterthought on that ship. I agree with SCC that astral is A tier at best, probably B tier, because of the ship system nerf plus the skill changes. I prefer legion XIV these days, although I think I may not have spent enough time with Astral to really have a strong opinion.
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Cruisers:
Spoiler
For me, apogee is now probably only low A tier, mostly because unofficered ships are not that good in late game, and apogee is not impactful enough to justify officers IMO. It's also just slow, meaning it can't always get into a position to do damage, where other fast ships can be constantly doing damage, but that is only a downside if you are running a very aggressive fleet that leaves it behind.

Dominator is B tier at best. It costs too much fuel, and lacks mobility. Champion is just so much better at the same role for the same cost.

Falcon P should be A or S tier. 4 medium missiles is a lot, and sabots are busted.

I also agree with SCC, fury is definitely S tier because of mobility plus very good stats.
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Destroyers:
Spoiler
Like SCC said, I think drover is quite bad this patch (in part because of a bug). It's 15 DP when heron is 20 which already makes me want to just use herons before considering anything else. I think the DP nerf and spark nerfs alone already were enough to knock it into B-C tier for me. The bug with the system that kills replacement rate puts it firmly in D-F tier for me.  I'm really not a fan of carriers on this patch. I think a big part of my dislike of carriers is that it feels like officers are mostly wasted on them compared to warships, but unofficered ships are often just fodder when the enemy has officers on most ships, plus the fleet-wide carrier skills are up against skills that are just better IMO so I never take them.

My only other comment is that I think enforcers flux stats drop them to B tier. They don't actually have that much firepower. Hammerhead is a much better ship.
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Frigates:
Spoiler
Agree with SCC: wolf is not very good (C), omen is very good (A), brawler is meh (B).

Player piloted afflicter is S-tier because it can assassinate anything in the game for 8 DP. I agree with AI assessment though, AI afflicter is just a distraction because it (rightfully) doesn't take the risks that a player would take.

Scarab is better than tempest late game IMO, between S and A tier for me. Tempest has higher theoretical DPS, but lacks survivability. Scarab can get 360 shields, has better shield efficiency, and has a ship system which is basically accelerated ammo feeder and plasma jets in one system. The buffs to IR pulse lasers also help scarab out a lot, it actually can break shields and then use AM blaster to do big damage. You can also go for some missiles which can make a significant impact. Based on the combat statistics mod, scarabs do just as much damage as tempests in late game for me, and die much less often. This all assumes officers with wolfpack tactics though, otherwise, your analysis is probably not too far off, although I think scarab and tempest are still solid ships without wolfpack tactics.
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Randaru

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Re: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2021, 12:41:12 PM »

Another disagreement: ziggurat is almost S tier in player hands with phase skills
Ziggurat was possibly my most thoroughly tested ship, maybe second most thoroughly tested after Doom, since that's what I used 90% of my playtime overall. It almost feels too good as what the devblog called a "brawler phase ship" - almost, and then I look at what pain must I go through to still be unable to beat a Radiant without massive cheese AND good RNG on my side, and I just kinda want to keep it indefinitely stored in one of my colonies, where I can just print a literal Paragon zerg rush if I ever chose to walk an inefficient route in fleet composition. And "inefficient" is the name of the game when using Ziggurat, hence my point about it being an easy candidate for an A-tier if its deployment didn't cause me a very physical rectal pain every signle time.

I disagree about atlas MK II. You just have to spend so much OP to compensate for the burn/sensors/bad stats you don't have enough to actually outfit it properly, and the survivability is atrocious, it just dies against strong opponents. If it had 100 more OP, I could maybe see B tier or a weak A tier.
A lot of people in and out of the forum already pointed it out, and, yes, I agree. As I rate ships on a variety of factors that are all relative to each other and to player's time spent, I've bloated Atlas's ranking based on its accessibility, perhaps, too much. But I refuse to change any informative value of the original post, even if I change my opinion - all of the edits are either my poor grammar or forum's formatting spontaneously imploding due to sheer quantity of it.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2021, 12:43:06 PM by Randaru »
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RustyCabbage

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Re: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2021, 02:34:02 PM »

Not going to argue about what tiers ships belong to, but some comments:

-Atlas II doesn't really justify its terrible burn speed, which is probably the number one reason why people would avoid adding it to their fleet early game, while later you simply have many better options. Could be good with Assault Package cheese and s-modded ADF, I suppose, but even that is sacrificing a lot.

-It's strange that you'd be having difficulty with getting value out of the Ziggurat, particularly in duels which is where it shines the most. Certainly the complaints about EMP are overstated--RFC/Damage Control/phasing all solve this problem easily. That said, I don't use the ship much personally.

-You can always justify a Legion with 5 Sabot Pods, and a Legion XIV with two Hurricane MIRVs. Though I agree fighters are kind of fragile at the moment with how strong the Point Defense skill is.

-Fun fact, with Assault Package cheese, the Prometheus II can have the highest armor of any ship in vanilla. I do love it but yeah it's not a very good ship.

-Falcon P deserves its own category with its four medium missile slots.

-Fury is heavily underrated given how economical it is. I'm a bit confused which part of it you find average, since it beats out the majority of the ships in its class size.

-Ventures will perform adequately with two medium missiles and fast missile racks, plus they have a solid logistics profile. Perfectly fine for a front-line ship provided you have other ships to do the killing.

-The Drover is, bluntly, rather terrible at the moment. It's strange that you bring up it's capabilities as a fighting ship (which really it doesn't have any) while ignoring its high cost and terrible fighter replacement which are points you thought were important enough on the Legion.

-Shrikes cost figurative pennies and have 10 burn. That's why they're nice to have.

-Buffalo II: 4 DP for a 70 OP destroyer with a medium missile and three smalls isn't shabby at all. Usually you'd have problems procurring enough of them to matter, but worth considering. :^)

-Your frigate ratings in general indicate a serious underestimation of Safety Overrides. Beyond that...
Afflictors probably have the highest value per DP for a player ship after the Doom. Omens have a built-in weapon that does 100*20 damage (+500*20 EMP) at 0.2 flux efficiency along with best-in-slot shields. Centurions are better distraction ships than Wolves. And I'm hurt that you'd somehow put the Lasher below a Wayfarer, which I feel is in like the bottom five of ships across all sizes.

some guy

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Re: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2021, 03:45:21 PM »

sooo you left the derelict ships outta there thoughts on those i think they have a bit of potential but from my observations in game they seem to be very team based...and slow.
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Linnis

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Re: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2021, 05:14:55 PM »

Very nice, you have considered the ships in wide range of parameters and situationa, and I agree with most of what you say are the pros and cons of ships.

Ziggurat I would personally rate only at B-teir. Simply because for the DP it is weak, and its TTK is also weak, its distraction and battle presences is mediocre as well. Maybe if the fleet limit was 15 ships, it would be a better choice.

Astral I would rate lower, because it needs to be escorted on occasions, taking up more effective DP. While most other carriers can take care of itself easily through speed ir tankiness.

Odessy would be a S class for me While Paragon B class. Running endgame fleets there is a reason why my odessy tend to do way more Damage per fight than Paragon. Speed is the answer.

Odessy is honestly faster than almost every single destoryer in combat. Its ability for AI to effectively use large autopluse, brawl with support fighter and good missle coverage, means that it is almost always the best damage per fight performer on the field. Yes, it cant stand 1v1 against another captial, but it will almost always create flanking oppertunities and make your battleline into a concave. There shouldn't much more to be said about battlelines concave vs convex statements. Paragon while powerful, is simply too slow and will find itself struggling to put weapon on target unless you want to do some deployment tricks that will make the fight last twice as long...




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Thaago

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Re: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2021, 10:31:25 PM »

I don't agree with everything, but this is a nice writeup!

I'd put Enforcers, Hammerheads, Shrikes, Sunders, and Medusas all in A rank. Maybe Medusas to B rank by endgame when their fragility vs cost gets them in trouble. They are all just good, but none are dominant.

For Shrikes in particular, I don't think they deserve to be in C tier... they have good missiles (high missiles/DP ratio too) and decent guns as long as you don't use a heavy blaster! Heavy blaster on a Shrike is a trap! In cost, burn, and DP they are more "big frigates" than anything else in role, but they are very competent in that role.
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Randaru

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Re: A Noob's Insight on: Ships!
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2021, 11:28:10 PM »

Two things I want to notify readers about.

1) I do know that every automated ship besides Radiant is missing, it is lazy, yes, but is intentional nonetheless. The explanation part that's been lost from Radiant entry due to formatting issues is now restored.

2) This thread got some traction, and, since I've got more free time on my hands than I know what to productively do with, I'm already gathering material for a second part about... weapons! I'll just have to hurry up rolling it out, before I taint my biases and fallacies with such meaningless things as "constructive criticism" or "actually knowing how to play the game", since the more wrong my opinion is, the juicier the discussions on upcoming "Noob's Insights" are going to be.
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