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Author Topic: Please don't overnerf the Fury  (Read 1450 times)

Amoebka

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Re: Please don't overnerf the Fury
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2021, 05:52:28 AM »

15 to 20 is a crazy big nerf, though. I'm definitely against nerfing Apogee, too. We already don't have enough ships in the 12-18 DP range, especially with both Furies and Falcons (P) getting bumped to 20.

In general, it feels like the game is experiencing a major "DP creep". Capitals are getting from 40-45 to 50-60 and light cruisers are now 20 instead of 15. Particularly insulting when the obnoxious phase ships and hyperions are allowed to stay broken forever.
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Draba

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Re: Please don't overnerf the Fury
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2021, 05:54:35 AM »

Unpopular opinion: I think Apogees are actually priced ok at 18 because they aren't that good. They combine being slow with being short ranged so can't deal with asymmetric situations, and their enormous shield radius makes so they block allies from firing.
Agreed on that one, Apogees are very nice for holding the line but have serious trouble finishing anything and are prone to getting caught by the real heavies. Also have a really weak system.
Taking eco stats into account I think in this version they are well worth the 18 DP, but there is no need for an increase if ballistics/lowtech get boosts (making the range disadvantage/getting caught problems worse).
Furies with 90 base speed and a system that lets them smash smaller ships are at least on par, despite the weaker stats.

Wanted to remind myself of the precise stats between the two ships and there's one thing that doesn't make sense. Fury, a light cruiser spends 3 fuel/ly while Apogee spends only 2. This is such a minor thing but I swear some of the logistics stats for ships in this game are truly weird.
Apogee's main shtick is having good eco stats for a combat ship, and being a durable brick to fall back on.
Furies are also 9 burn to Apogee's 8.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2021, 05:04:42 AM by Draba »
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Grievous69

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Re: Please don't overnerf the Fury
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2021, 06:16:27 AM »

15 to 20 is a crazy big nerf, though.
Yuuuup, this is the same as a 45 DP capital getting bumped to 60. Overperforming ships should be slowly brought down, not kneejerk reaction nerf them because people are yelling. For 2 Furies you could deploy a whole capital, that seems a bit off.
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FooF

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Re: Please don't overnerf the Fury
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2021, 06:21:39 AM »

@Thaago

I agree the Fury is the better warship. I think the Apogee is in a weird spot where it's supposed to be an exploration ship but not completely defenseless. I don't think it needs changing but if the Fury were to get bumped to 20 DP (which by the way, I'm still not sure where I got that), I can understand the argument "But the Apogee..."

Like I said, the only thing really going for the Apogee in a fleet situation is that it's a brick. Its damage potential isn't that much higher than a Sunder's.

Also re: Apogee's fuel/ly - it's a top of the line exploration ship. I have no problem with it being efficient in hyperspace. The Fury having Burn 9 is so it doesn't flow down Destroyer fleets like the Falcon. It's apples and oranges to me and both ships have their reasons for the logistics profile that they have.
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SCC

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Re: Please don't overnerf the Fury
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2021, 06:33:13 AM »

hyperions are allowed to stay broken forever.
To be fair, this is the first release in years when Hyperion is good again, instead of just a worse phase ship.

All this talk about DP makes me wonder, what do you guys consider to be the most balanced (as in, the most accurate DP rating) ship in the game, that you would use to measure all other ships?

Amoebka

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Re: Please don't overnerf the Fury
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2021, 06:36:03 AM »

For me it's less about the individual ship as a measuring stick, but the ratio between ship classes. I would say the core midline lineup (centurion - monitor - hammerhead - falcon - eagle - champion - conquest) has a good set of DP values.
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Grievous69

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Re: Please don't overnerf the Fury
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2021, 06:46:15 AM »

Yeah I was also going to mention that midline ships are pretty well balanced. If I'd have to choose a single one that would probably be Conquest since I have played soo much with it, I'm well aware of its strengths and weaknesses and think the cost is just right. Eagle is a close second, now that I think about it I don't recall it ever getting buffs/nerfs.

But I don't see how that could be used to measure other ships. Comparing a Conquest directly to a single Fury is a bit hard. If it does get bumped to 20, you could propose a question. Which is better, 2 Furies or 1 Conquest? Even then, it depends on the role and your fleet composition. When I look at Fury I'm comparing it to other cruisers, mainly those close to its cost as that seems the most logical way of figuring things out. Obviously we all agree it's stronger than a base Falcon but since there's a bit of disagreement about the 20 DP cost it's clear it's not THAT broken.

Also the point about already having a ton of 20+ DP ships stands, and we're getting yet another 20 DP cruiser next patch. It's useful to have those cheaper ships when you already deployed most of your fleet but don't want a squishy frigate/destroyer.
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Megas

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Re: Please don't overnerf the Fury
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2021, 07:25:32 AM »

@ Grievous:  Or two Shrikes instead of one Fury.

For me, the main reason for me to use Fury is a Shrike that is not too flimsy.  I did not play it much because it was a rare ship.  I got Doom blueprint before I got Fury blueprint, and I got enough Dooms to cheese the game before I could build enough Furies.

I would not mind Fury going up to 18 DP, but 20? I don't know.

If I wanted to compare cruisers with Apogee, I would pick Dominator or Aurora.  Dominator (and maybe Champion too) for similar role, and Aurora for energy-and-missile based firepower.

Apogee looks like a bargain compared to the heavy cruisers.  Aurora is only decent now because of energy weapon buffs.  Last release, it was mediocre against big ships, and why pay 30 DP when I pay 35 to 40 DP for Doom or battleship that can bully everything instead of only small ships.

How much DP would Fury be worth with weapon balance from last release?  I probably would say 15 DP.  (And Aurora worth 25 to 27 DP, and Apogee worth up to 20 to 22 DP.)  I think changes in energy weapon balance (both from weapon tweaks and skills) helped make typical high-tech ships better than they were.  (Slow stuff like Paragon suffered by indirect nerf.  No changes to stats, but defenses get chewed through faster.)
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FooF

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Re: Please don't overnerf the Fury
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2021, 08:12:13 AM »

Re: DP costs

Eagle is probably the Gold Standard for me. It is the definition of a jack-of-all-trades and doesn't suffer from anything in particular, inluding being overcosted deployment-wise. Other ships are better for cost but the Eagle is in the Goldilocks Zone at 22. It's not light, not heavy and neither slow nor fast.

From a fleet standpoint, the Fury is every bit worth 20 DP, if I compare it to the 22 DP Eagle. I think I might even take the Fury over the Eagle more often than not. That's why 15 DP for the Fury was absurd. However, with the Dominator getting buffs and the existence of the Champion, "Heavy" Cruisers are a real thing. The Aurora is the one that, at 30 DP, can be hit-or-miss. A generic Aurora probably isn't worth 30 but a highly-specialized missile boat or AM Blaster Aurora is ridiculous.
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Megas

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Re: Please don't overnerf the Fury
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2021, 09:34:01 AM »

How would Fury compare to Medusa or two Shrikes or two Tempests?
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Grievous69

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Re: Please don't overnerf the Fury
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2021, 09:51:43 AM »

I'd gladly take 2 Tempests or 2 Scarabs over a single Fury, because Furies were the ships with most deaths in my fleet (all with maxed officers). I pretty much think of Fury as 2 Shrikes slapped together so it would be pretty cool to see it have 16 DP cost but maybe a bit weaker. And the Medusa comparison is a bit hard because it's such a survivable ship that can dictate what fights to take, meanwhile Fury goes in and prays it survives. Medusa is obviously weaker but not by that much as one would think (2 ballistic slots make a world of difference).
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pairedeciseaux

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Re: Please don't overnerf the Fury
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2021, 12:30:54 PM »

Two month ago Alex wrote that Fury and Pirate Falcon DP cost were increased to 20:

https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=22185.msg334588#msg334588

In-game Fury has the "light cruiser" designation, but... I can't find reference to it, I'm pretty sure I read Alex explaining Fury should be considered as a "fast cruiser", meaning fast as a light cruiser / a destroyer, but as powerful as a normal cruiser. Which is... what it is!

I 100% share FooF assessment:

From a fleet standpoint, the Fury is every bit worth 20 DP, if I compare it to the 22 DP Eagle. I think I might even take the Fury over the Eagle more often than not. That's why 15 DP for the Fury was absurd.

Yes, even at 20 DP, if other stats don't change, Fury would still be a really good deal considering the package.

20 DP for Apogee would be appropriate too. In a late game fleet I may keep it with High Intensity Laser + ITU, because it's viability as a brawler with Plasma Cannon decreases in my experience.
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FooF

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Re: Please don't overnerf the Fury
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2021, 12:38:04 PM »

I'd take two (current) Tempests with Wolfpack over a single (current) Fury. The Fury is a fine ship but Wolfpack Tactics, officers, and HEF on Tempests makes them kind of ridiculous. It's two officers, sure, but that's just where Tempests are at. Likewise the similarly priced Hyperion is better than a Fury. That has more to do with the current power of High Tech frigates combined with skils than a deficiency with the Fury.

Furies can actually hold up to fire, unlike Shrikes, so 2 Shrikes don't appeal to me that much. They have all the disadvantages of Destroyers in a frame not much sturdier than a Frigate. Shrikes are good early but melt late game because of their overall squishiness. Furies are still viable late because they have pretty good flux stats. Also, 2 Shrikes will get killed piecemeal while you have to take the Fury out completely. No divide and conquer there.

The Medusa is an interesting comparison but its apples and oranges to me. The Medusa is an expert opportunist but the Fury has to blaze in and still take a punch. If anything, the Fury is designed to hunt Medusas because it will win a straight-up fight and can keep up with the Medusa if it tries to flee. However, I'd take a Medusa as a harasser over a Fury anyday because it can get out of hairy situations much better.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Please don't overnerf the Fury
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2021, 12:52:01 PM »

I mean tempest is getting nerfed/reworked, so I don't think it's the right point of comparison.
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Please don't overnerf the Fury
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2021, 01:14:43 PM »

Feel free to tell me if I'm in denial and it should definitely get annihilated.

15 to 20 is a crazy big nerf, though.
Yuuuup, this is the same as a 45 DP capital getting bumped to 60. Overperforming ships should be slowly brought down, not kneejerk reaction nerf them because people are yelling. For 2 Furies you could deploy a whole capital, that seems a bit off.
[/quote]

I'll note the Radiant is getting its DP increased from 40 to 60 DP, which is a 50% jump, while the Fury is only a 33% increase.  Do you feel that raising the Radiant's cost to 60 DP is annihilating it or a kneejerk reaction?  Personally, I don't think the size of the change matters.  The question is, what is the appropriate final balance point that it should be at, not what the relative change is.  Keep in mind, this isn't a next day patch kind of change.  It's happening over more than 6 months by the time next patch comes out.  So people have had plenty of time to mull it over and play with it at the current deployment cost.

Also, do you have thoughts on the 15 to 20 DP jump for the Pirate Falcon?  It is an identical sized jump, and we've had that ship through multiple releases now.

I will note that a DP change is primarily a late game fleet composition nerf, as opposed to an early game or mid-game balance change.  The 5 extra supplies here and there tend to be lost in the noise for me.  I still think the ship will be excellent for leading destroyer/frigate packs and better than a Falcon as a first cruiser.

As for where its deployment cost should be is a tough call.  Fully kitted, they have strong shield tank combined with high mobility, which means they survive extremely well.  Those two factors seem to offset the AI's tendency to get into bad positions via plasma burn. Throw on SO and they can be packing the effective firepower of 1 and a third Plasma cannons backed by ion cannons and quite reasonable PPT.

Having played with it, 15 DP does feel too low.  9000 flux capacity, is 600 flux dissipation, 90 speed, possibility for 360 shields at 0.7 efficiency.  It all adds up to fairly strong package.  Would 18 DP be the right number?  Maybe?  It's only 10% different from 20 DP, and well, 10% is easily lost in officer skills, fitting, fleet composition, fleet orders, and player piloting.  I think Furies will definitely still see use at a 20 DP point - although you probably won't be seeing end game fleets composed solely of Furies at that point, but used to fill a fleet need and compliment other ships.  Or maybe you will.  I remember seeing a post somewhere of a player testing their current Fury fleet assuming the new DP cost and it still had no losses against Ordos with Radiants, so likely still strong enough for typical end game.
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