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Author Topic: Jump in now or wait for skill changes?  (Read 2252 times)

Jo Jo

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Jump in now or wait for skill changes?
« on: August 14, 2021, 12:48:51 PM »

I've been watching this game for the past 6-7 years, occasionally reading the dev blogs and learning about the continued growth. It looks like it's getting a lot closer to what I enjoyed in Eve, which is the industry side along with the missions. I'm a tinkerer and technology geek who was never much one for PVP or someone who had the schedule to wake up at 3:00 AM to assemble for a fleet fight in another time zone. Family and work come first. 

The last blog was on the 15th of July, and I assume that would mean that something new regarding the skills rework is coming this month or next month. When's a good time to jump in? I do see the dev is going out of his way to ensure that save games are compatible.

I watched a good review of the game, though is was from Jan of this year, and they talked about a lack of end game activity and no real story line.

What are the upsides or downsides of jumping in now?

What's it like to play a game that's still in development? Do you reach the end game and then stat over with a new career or with "lessons learned?" If so, how long or how many hours until endgame?

How's the industrial side of things. I enjoy making money, and building things. Founding and improving colonies would be fine, as long as I have to do some work, make some development choices and as long as it makes me some money or allows me to buy ships? Thanks!
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FenMuir

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Re: Jump in now or wait for skill changes?
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2021, 01:30:52 PM »

Jump in now.

Skill changes will likely take a very long time to be implemented. Updates to this game are glacial in their release schedule.

The Galatia questline has been implemented. I follow it in this playthrough:
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDjE6j_BlALgg6qIFYopsKgnRLgmluxfx

The majority of the game has been implemented.

Colonies lack the ability to order their fleets, but that is really about it. Think of them as money printing presses that you should start founding around mid-game.

The End Game has been alluded to with something that hangs out near two mega structures at the edges of the sector.
Hint: Your regular fleet is screwed the moment you run into them, but they'll let you run away.

The game's core system has always been its in-game combat. Pretty much everything is secondary to that.
You generally make money either through:
  • Bounties
  • Colonies
  • Smuggling
  • Transport missions
For colonies, you need to build Heavy Industry and upgrade it into an Orbital Starworks, which makes starships.

For guides on how to loadout ships, I have some builds you can try out here:
https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=22491.msg338392#msg338392

There are also multiple ways to play the game.
  • Want to be a brawler? Low-Tech ships!
  • Want to kill everything with overwhelming firepower? Mid-Line Ships!
  • Want to use fancy ships with the best special abilities? High-Tech!
  • Want to be a Sneaky Boi? Phase ships!
  • Want to be a religious terrorist? Pather commission!
  • Want to be a bloody pirate and have everyone hate you? Pirate commission!
  • Want to be a corporate douchebag? Tri-Tachyon has your commission papers at HR.
  • Want to be part of the organization that is doing its damnedest to keep humanity from falling apart and dying in the sector? The Hegemony wants YOU! COMMISSION TODAY!
You're looking to spend 60-100 hours to hit end game depending on what you do before that.

Since you can respec your skills and basically pivot into whatever you want, you don't have to start a new playthrough to do something different.

The downside to jumping in now is that after 100 or so hours, you probably won't have much else to do in-game beyond farming Alpha Cores and founding new colonies with them. You'll probably have the entire sector mapped by the 200 hour point, if not far earlier.
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Deshara

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Re: Jump in now or wait for skill changes?
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2021, 02:06:05 PM »

now
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Jo Jo

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Re: Jump in now or wait for skill changes?
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2021, 02:52:38 PM »

Jump in now.

Skill changes will likely take a very long time to be implemented. Updates to this game are glacial in their release schedule.

The Galatia questline has been implemented. I follow it in this playthrough:
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDjE6j_BlALgg6qIFYopsKgnRLgmluxfx

The majority of the game has been implemented.

Colonies lack the ability to order their fleets, but that is really about it. Think of them as money printing presses that you should start founding around mid-game.

The End Game has been alluded to with something that hangs out near two mega structures at the edges of the sector.
Hint: Your regular fleet is screwed the moment you run into them, but they'll let you run away.

The game's core system has always been its in-game combat. Pretty much everything is secondary to that.
You generally make money either through:
  • Bounties
  • Colonies
  • Smuggling
  • Transport missions
For colonies, you need to build Heavy Industry and upgrade it into an Orbital Starworks, which makes starships.

For guides on how to loadout ships, I have some builds you can try out here:
https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=22491.msg338392#msg338392

There are also multiple ways to play the game.
  • Want to be a brawler? Low-Tech ships!
  • Want to kill everything with overwhelming firepower? Mid-Line Ships!
  • Want to use fancy ships with the best special abilities? High-Tech!
  • Want to be a Sneaky Boi? Phase ships!
  • Want to be a religious terrorist? Pather commission!
  • Want to be a bloody pirate and have everyone hate you? Pirate commission!
  • Want to be a corporate douchebag? Tri-Tachyon has your commission papers at HR.
  • Want to be part of the organization that is doing its damnedest to keep humanity from falling apart and dying in the sector? The Hegemony wants YOU! COMMISSION TODAY!
You're looking to spend 60-100 hours to hit end game depending on what you do before that.

Since you can respec your skills and basically pivot into whatever you want, you don't have to start a new playthrough to do something different.

The downside to jumping in now is that after 100 or so hours, you probably won't have much else to do in-game beyond farming Alpha Cores and founding new colonies with them. You'll probably have the entire sector mapped by the 200 hour point, if not far earlier.

Thanks for all the info. I can't say I understand much of it at this point, though I have bookmarked your playthrough and will start watching and learning today. Thanks for all the tips! They will all make more sense once I have a better understanding of the game. :) I assume there's a decent tutorial to help someone new get started?

Oh, I have your ship builds bookmarked as well. That will give me a good start. Thanks!

Two more questions...

In the videos I've seen so far, the enemy ships explode when destroyed. Do yours explode and are lost forever as well, or do you get them back is an extremely damaged, but repairable state?

Is there a way to slow combat as it appears you can slow the game when traveling around? When I watch combat on YouTube I find there is so much going on that it's very hard to keep up. At those speeds I feel I wouldn't know if my ships performed well or not or what tweaks I would need to make. Thanks!
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Jo Jo

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Re: Jump in now or wait for skill changes?
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2021, 02:54:03 PM »

now

Thank you. From the number of posts, it appears as though you've been playing this game for a while and likely know quite a bit about it. I'll watch a few more videos and take your advice as time and schedule allows. :)
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FenMuir

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Re: Jump in now or wait for skill changes?
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2021, 05:34:11 PM »

Thanks for all the info. I can't say I understand much of it at this point, though I have bookmarked your playthrough and will start watching and learning today. Thanks for all the tips! They will all make more sense once I have a better understanding of the game. :) I assume there's a decent tutorial to help someone new get started?

Oh, I have your ship builds bookmarked as well. That will give me a good start. Thanks!

Two more questions...
In the videos I've seen so far, the enemy ships explode when destroyed. Do yours explode and are lost forever as well, or do you get them back is an extremely damaged, but repairable state?
When a ship hits 0 hull (or -1 hull), the ship explodes. Sometimes this results in the ship splitting into pieces, but other times it remains whole in a destroyed state. The Reinforced Bulkheads Hull Mod makes it so ships are almost always recoverable if destroyed in combat.

A ship that was destroyed during, but recovered after, a battle gains hull mods that are known as (D) Mods, or Damaged Mods. These detract from the ship in some way, but there is a skill that allows you to either take advantage of these (D) Mods or have a random chance to remove one per amount of time. Most ships are still combat ready with (D) Mods.

Regardless of whether the ship was yours, allied, or hostile during the battle, you have some chance to recover the ship so long as it didn't break apart. With the advent of Story Points, some ships are recoverable for free after the battle, but other ships will cost story points to recover.

Is there a way to slow combat as it appears you can slow the game when traveling around? When I watch combat on YouTube I find there is so much going on that it's very hard to keep up. At those speeds I feel I wouldn't know if my ships performed well or not or what tweaks I would need to make. Thanks!
You can pause the game in combat by pressing Space. Phase ships can enter P-Space (Phase Space) wherein they move at normal speed, but normal space moves in slow-motion.
In Battle, you can press TAB to go to the Command Map, which is where you issue commands to the captains of ships. These captains will attempt to follow these commands in as safe a way as possible for their ships.

Basically, if a ship survives the battle, assume it performed well.
You can also test ships in simulation via the Refit screen.

I have some slightly dated tutorials for Starsector which you can find here:
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDjE6j_BlALgeytqKrYKzzm9ZPy1poGO0
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Jo Jo

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Re: Jump in now or wait for skill changes?
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2021, 06:07:13 PM »

Thanks FenMuir! I am thoroughly enjoying your ship build videos, and I will likely start your playthrough series tomorrow. Very fascinating that you have to build your ships with an understanding of how the AI might use them or the weapons they carry, along with managing flux.

Yes, I have seen some ships in your fitting simulations break apart while others simply resemble a smouldering mess, and I've also noticed the reinforced hull module, though it doesn't appear you use it often. I'm guessing that you don't lose ships very frequently, or you gain more ships from salvage than you lose.

I'm looking for some carrier fit videos now that I have read more about how the AI uses carrier fleets, calling all of them back at the same time. Good stuff!

Oh, will gladly take a look at the tutorials next. Thanks!
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SafariJohn

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Re: Jump in now or wait for skill changes?
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2021, 06:39:33 PM »

If a ship breaks apart or not when it blows up doesn't mean much tbh. Just means it is certain to get the Compromised Hull d-mod I think, if recovered.

Ships with Reinforced Bulkheads are always recoverable, even if they get completely blown apart.
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Jo Jo

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Re: Jump in now or wait for skill changes?
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2021, 06:53:50 PM »

If a ship breaks apart or not when it blows up doesn't mean much tbh. Just means it is certain to get the Compromised Hull d-mod I think, if recovered.

Ships with Reinforced Bulkheads are always recoverable, even if they get completely blown apart.

Ahh. Very helpful. Thank you!
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JAL28

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Re: Jump in now or wait for skill changes?
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2021, 07:22:47 PM »

Jump in now.

It's fun, lots of fun. Maybe try watching Sseth's tutorial on it, while it's somewhat outdated much of it still stands true to this day.

When you ever feel you are running out of content, go get some mods. Nexerelin and Diable Avionics are the general preferred first mods, but there are just so many that you probably won't ever run out of content; more likely, you'll run out of RAM space first.

But do try vanilla before adding mods, to at least get a hang of the game.

How's the industrial side of things. I enjoy making money, and building things. Founding and improving colonies would be fine, as long as I have to do some work, make some development choices and as long as it makes me some money or allows me to buy ships? Thanks!

Well great. Colonies are a pretty integral part of the game and you won't get anywhere close to slaughtering the rest of the Sector in cold blood becoming an industrial tycoon and having everyone else being jealous and sending expeditions to stop you for taking up their market share without them. There are industries, upkeep, lots of cool things, and there's also mods that further enhance colonies and make them even cooler.

You do have to make development choices, mostly picking the right system and right planets so your colonies don't suck you dry financially in their infancy, because bankruptcy from colonies is a genuine threat that you won't avoid unless you run a jacked commission or save lots and LOTS of cash. There are also industries that have, ah, negative impacts depending on the planet they are on. And things that work only on certain planets.

Imagine buying ships! You can MAKE your own ships with the right items and industries. No need to worry on factions or scavenging derelicts no more. And colonies can make money. They can make a LOT of money. You will know when you found your own, they can get EXTREMELY crazy with their money-making.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2021, 07:31:17 PM by JAL28 »
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FenMuir

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Re: Jump in now or wait for skill changes?
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2021, 08:33:00 PM »

Thanks FenMuir! I am thoroughly enjoying your ship build videos, and I will likely start your playthrough series tomorrow. Very fascinating that you have to build your ships with an understanding of how the AI might use them or the weapons they carry, along with managing flux.

Yes, I have seen some ships in your fitting simulations break apart while others simply resemble a smouldering mess, and I've also noticed the reinforced hull module, though it doesn't appear you use it often. I'm guessing that you don't lose ships very frequently, or you gain more ships from salvage than you lose.

I'm looking for some carrier fit videos now that I have read more about how the AI uses carrier fleets, calling all of them back at the same time. Good stuff!

Oh, will gladly take a look at the tutorials next. Thanks!
You're welcome.
Ship AI is incredibly complex, and I don't understand exactly how it works. I do know that the following impact how aggressive a ship is:
  • Current % of Armor
  • Current % of Flux (the lower the better)
  • Current % of Hull
  • The ship's class compared to its target ship.
  • The number of nearby friendly ships.
  • The number of nearby enemy ships.
  • The number of escorting fighters compared to opposed fighters.
  • Whether the ship is Civilian ship (Has Civilian Grade Hull). This causes the ship to be more timid.
  • Whether the ship is a Combat Ship (doesn't have Civilian Grade Hull). This causes the ship to act normally.
  • Whether the ship is a Carrier. Carriers act similarly to Civilian Ships in that they avoid direct confrontation with the enemy regardless of what armaments you put on them.
  • Whether the ship is a Combat Carrier. Combat Carriers act like Combat Ships since they are.
  • As a guess, whether the ship has any Offensive weapons, which are non-PD weapons.
  • The officer in charge of the ship. There are 5 types of officers.
  • Timid Officers avoid combat. They basically attack from maximum range and try to stay out of enemy range.
  • Cautious Officers will attack enemies in as safe a manner as possible.
  • Steady Officers (default ship behavior) will engage ships without a lean towards being overly safe or aggressive.
  • Aggressive Officers will be more risky with their ships and attack the enemy even when potentially disadvantageous to do so.
  • Reckless Officers "DON'T TELL ME THE ODDS! KILL THOSE BASTARDS! ALL GUNS FIRE!"

Carrier spam is very powerful, though the ship builds for them can be somewhat arcane. There are certain grades of fighters, though:
  • Interceptors are Air Superiority fighters. They hunt down enemy fighters first and attack enemy ships second.
  • Heavy Fighters are anti-point defense. They often have the ability to deploy flares, which they will do automatically. They also have heavier armor than Interceptors. Most of them can fight other fighters.
  • Assault Fighters attack enemy ships and mostly ignore enemy fighters. The Warthog is the only fighter like this, I think. Surprisingly effective at second glance. Criminally underused.
  • Bombers bomb enemy ships. They burn towards enemy ships, drop their payloads, turn around, and fly home.
  • Xyphos are basically fighter shaped PD. They also deal EMP damage to enemy ships, but don't worry about that too much at this point.

Try to have your carriers specialize.
  • Interceptors are critical to keeping enemy fighters at bay since once you lose the "air battle," you're unlikely to win it back unless your PD wipes out the enemy fighters. Interceptors will attack interceptors first, fighters second, and bombers 3rd OR whatever is closest.
  • Heavy Fighters are critical to keeping enemy PD busy so you can spam missiles or use bombers.
  • Warthogs are basically Anti-Frigate and Anti-Destroyer. They are slow, but they deal a ton of damage to armor. Each fighter bay of Warthogs fields 3 warthogs, each of which field 2 light mortars, which are weapons you can put on your ships.
  • Bombers make enemy ships go Boom in short order, but they're relatively slow and vulnerable.
  • Xyphos are best used as a replacement for PD. They can disable enemy weapons and engines, but think about that later.

The Carriers themselves range from straightforward brawlers to high-risk-high-reward:
  • Condors are attractive initial carriers for new players, but they are ships that you should quickly move away from.
  • Colossus Mk.IIIs are attractive in that they are cheap, but they are worse or equal to Conodors. You'll stop using them eventually, but you're likely to find some to play with after fighting pirates.
  • Drovers are great carriers for the early game, but their overreliance on missiles means they are circumstantially good.
  • Gemini are freighters with a hangar bay. They can be decent to good if they are built correctly. You'll likely move past these once you get your hands on Mora.
  • Herons are fantastic Bomber carriers due to their Fighter Damage Buff ability. Their damage buff can also help them be Air Superiority carriers.
  • Moras are brawlers that have the ship ability to soak enormous amounts of damage. They are easily one of the more discounted ships, but if built correctly, they punch above their class with ease.
  • Legions are also brawlers, but they have far more firepower than Moras. Their special is to charge the enemy. This can let them escape slower capitals or close the distance with enemies.
  • Astrals are super-mega-ultra-glass-cannon bomber carriers. Their special teleports their fighters back to them and auto-refits/repairs them. This means the bombers can attack again immediately. Fantastic with Trident bombers. The special can be spammed. However, if something gets in your face, you're probably dead since the Astral's ability to defend itself is barely more than token.

Side note: Any ship can be a carrier with the Converted Fighter Bay Hull Mod. Feel free to drown your enemies in fighters.
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JAL28

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Re: Jump in now or wait for skill changes?
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2021, 09:02:08 PM »

Officers in a nutshell:

Timid: Probably never going to actually get into combat range. Makes a combat ship useless, useful if you want your carriers to avoid going into combat directly like a cat hates water, but the AI may have unforeseen effects on fighter control.

Cautious: Like Timid but slightly more useful on combat ships.

Steady: They get the job done, but don’t seem to be willing to run in and take some risk to finish off an already heavily damaged enemy, preferring to just sit at a reasonably range and unfortunately draw out conflicts on dying enemies unless given an Eliminate command.

Aggressive: They like to charge in head on and do do their job better than Steady in regards of finishing off ships, but can casually run into enemy battle lines and then get heavily damaged.

Reckless: Depending on the ship and the situation, they can be useless or extremely terrifying. Useless because they charge recklessly into battle lines and get shredded/ram other ships and do damage to themselves. Terrifying because in the right ships and loadouts they can decimate entire battle lines, slaughter other capitals etc. Specifically one very special, [REDACTED] ship. You will find it eventually. And it will give you PTSD.
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FenMuir

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Re: Jump in now or wait for skill changes?
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2021, 09:07:27 PM »

Afflictor, AMB + Reckless Officer is *does kiss gesture with hand* Mwah!
Afflictor, AMB:
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SCC

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Re: Jump in now or wait for skill changes?
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2021, 11:09:51 PM »

What are the upsides or downsides of jumping in now?
The game isn't changing radically, so there's no downside to starting to play now. You won't learn any habits that will become bad in the next version.

What's it like to play a game that's still in development? Do you reach the end game and then stat over with a new career or with "lessons learned?" If so, how long or how many hours until endgame?
The game never ends, only when you decide you had enough. The lack of endgame is literal. As for "how is to to play Starsector in development", it's rather unlike other early access games, since Alex takes his time and bugs aren't really something you usually care about at all.

How's the industrial side of things. I enjoy making money, and building things. Founding and improving colonies would be fine, as long as I have to do some work, make some development choices and as long as it makes me some money or allows me to buy ships? Thanks!
You can make colonies, but they are rather simple. They serve only a few functions: they provide free storage, they stockpile supplies and fuel for you, they manufacture ships you have blueprints for, but majority of industries are there to make money. Production chains are there, but they are only useful for slightly decreasing your upkeep costs (so that's also about making money). You spend more time and effort finding sites for colonies, blueprints or colony items, and defending your colonies from other factions, than you do managing them.

Jo Jo

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Re: Jump in now or wait for skill changes?
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2021, 09:58:09 AM »

Hahah! I loved all the excellent responses, and I'll surely have to come back to this thread many times in order to review once I have time to play the game. Thank you all for taking the time to provide such detailed responses, especially FenMuir. I'm watching his playthrough and reading everyone's responses during mealtime or when I have a couple minutes. Sounds like my gaming experience is going to be fun today and better as the months roll on. :)
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