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Author Topic: Asteroid navigation sensor hullmod  (Read 3643 times)

Sutopia

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Re: Asteroid navigation sensor hullmod
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2021, 03:01:08 PM »

i think there is something that alters chances based on fleet size, but i dont know.  i think there could be something that uses something expensive (like rare metals) that you can turn on or off the same way you do the sensor ability; that would be a skill.  i also think that the skill should be a mining skill, as that just makes sense to my head.

the hull mod idea isnt bad though.  perhaps it could be something that increases fuel use a good bit, but also gives a small (10%?) maneuverability boost/increases side thrust, as in my conceptualization it makes sense to have special evasion thrusters do the job (unless of course im misunderstanding the drive bubble idea.  anyone care to explain what a drive bubble it? lol)

Most likely referring to the warp drive
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp_drive
You need to form a bubble that folds the space time structure to travel FTL

Edit: auxiliary thruster already exists

Drive bubbles is the in-game bs lore explaining why asteroid impacts throw an entire fleet off course.  It is basically just burn level, since explaining how antimatter turns into thrust is sort of pointless (it's a game, after all).  Since ox ships increase burn for entire fleet, it "affects" drive bubble.  Doesn't form or at least forms less if going slow, compared to sustained burn.  And ships can't shoot through it, so can't just shoot asteroids out of the way in asteroid belts.

If ships can’t shoot through it why can’t we just ignore whoever is trying to shoot us by ramming them with drive bubble?

There is another complication: AM fuel is only consumed in hyperspace but obviously a drive bubble is present during normal space travel, where unfortunate asteroid impacts happen.
It make sense that AM fuel is consumed in HS as you’re literally traveling FTL (judging from unit ly being a standard unit IRL) but not in normal space (judging from common sense it takes only minutes for light from sun to reach earth).

To be honest, now that I thinked about it, why do we need to use a single drive field in first place? Can’t individual ship use their own?
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6chad.noirlee9

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Re: Asteroid navigation sensor hullmod
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2021, 04:23:39 PM »

well the short version is ramming with drive bubbles is likely outright suicidal whereas a battle isnt necessarily.

so heres my idea: normal speed in a system is so efficient that even though it uses AM fuel the amount is so low that it doesnt even procc a single "unit"

my next idea: burn level isnt specifically the same between in-system and FTL travel
that is to say, it is a sort of placeholder that is a given based on the general knowledge of all ships in existence

i mean......we all have a codex, right?
so burn level is merely a representation of relative speeds compared between all known ships

also, s/u and burn level are completely independent from one another

i mean think about it, when you retreat you "burn" away at great speed

another way to think about it is once you break the sound barrier, you end up with a sort of bubble around you, whether mach 1 or 10
so once you reach a certain speed it takes all power from every system other than the main travel engines, thereby creating a massive flux field or "drive bubble"

this "law of motion" is perfectly stable and substainable at SUBlightespeed, but in order to "break into and mainly MOVE THROUGH hyperspace" you have to actually spend the energy from the AM fuel.  again, having the drive bubble at all is perfectly stable and well within any ship (probably for safety reasons?) to maintain a drive bubble IF NOT MOVING even while in hyperspace.

the only problem i see with this idea is that conceivably youd have to come up with some reason why a fleet cant just use the drive bubble to keep other fleets away
besides that, youd have to be able to explain why fleets can battle in hyperspace without the drive bubbles battering them to pieces
perhaps it could work like this: the drive bubbles keeping them in hyperspace merge into one somehow allowing the battle to occur
or perhaps they just phase into normal space again out in the massive void itself, and phase right back to hyperspace
i think thats the best idea.....i mean the jump points are really there to help you navigate back to a system properly, as far as i can tell, and technically you could drop out of hyperspace at anytime, the only problem is youd be (technically) so far away from everything that itd be pointless

ok, so, the jump points are really just mathematical constants unique to systems that always exist which ships navigation are programmed to find

now, the only thing really left to explain is why you couldnt have the drive bubble just push fleets away
so, perhaps the way to explain this, is that once another fleets drive bubble comes into contact with yours, they sort of cancel each other out, and i mean actu8al close proximity, but since it is another fleets drive bubble and NOT a sold object (because the fields would meet before the ships actually met the other fleets field) they naturally cancel each other out, and if one fleet manages to get close enough they can pulse their drive bubble (like a really powerful indertiction pulse at super close range, tuned not just to stop the fast burn abilities, but to actually disrupt the field entirely) effectively forces the battle to occur, wherein you can engage, or attempt to disengage, and once a certain distance/time limit is reached then you can initiate burn and recreate the drive bubble.

anyway, im just spitballing
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edit: edit: maybe were just falling with style LOL.  make a bubble, make the space in front of it smaller and just fall forward

Sutopia

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Re: Asteroid navigation sensor hullmod
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2021, 04:29:31 PM »

You have fundamental misunderstanding of the concept of warp drive and why it can work.
Warp drive enables FTL travel by generating a bubble that interfaces with the fabric of space and time, allowing the content of the bubble to stay in normal space while the bubble itself travel at great speed ignoring the limit of speed of light-what correlates space and time into a single unit. It’s anything but the bubble from sound barrier which is just shockwave induced by the fact of an object moving faster than air - the medium. You need the bubble to travel FTL not the other way around.


Or maybe we’re simply not using warp drive, idk.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2021, 04:32:46 PM by Sutopia »
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6chad.noirlee9

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Re: Asteroid navigation sensor hullmod
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2021, 04:33:30 PM »

i wasnt insinuating that breaking the sound barrier is the same as generating a field in order to move faster

are you so sure that a less intense version of the bubble you speak of wouldnt be necessary to facilitate travel in system?

edit: the game literally shows your fleet and all others surrounded by a bubble at all times in the campaign map, and has a color denoting the faction they represent when the transponder is on.  it may have initially just been a convenient design however there could be more to it than that.


edit: edit: maybe were just falling with style LOL.  make a bubble, make the space in front of it smaller and just fall forward
« Last Edit: July 29, 2021, 04:40:38 PM by 6chad.noirlee9 »
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Sutopia

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Re: Asteroid navigation sensor hullmod
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2021, 04:52:04 PM »

We’ve strayed way off topic at this moment.

What were we trying to figure out again?
Um, why do we run into asteroids?
I don’t think it has a definitive answer as currently the vanilla content prioritize balance over solid lore and leaving gray zones help justifying later design decisions.

So back to the discussion, I can see why people don’t like getting randomly bounced around, but I don’t understand why moving slowly is unacceptable?
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6chad.noirlee9

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Re: Asteroid navigation sensor hullmod
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2021, 05:42:04 PM »

in general the idea is that at high levels/if you specialize it would be cool to mitigate that factor some
which i think would be cool: for someone who specializes in mining it would make sense if that fleet gets a bonus when moving through belts, as this would be experts and besides they would get a bonus when running from pirates in the early game, and chasing down fleets in the late game
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Deshara

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Re: Asteroid navigation sensor hullmod
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2021, 11:02:51 PM »

There is another complication: AM fuel is only consumed in hyperspace but obviously a drive bubble is present during normal space travel, where unfortunate asteroid impacts happen.
It make sense that AM fuel is consumed in HS as you’re literally traveling FTL (judging from unit ly being a standard unit IRL) but not in normal space (judging from common sense it takes only minutes for light from sun to reach earth).

you don't actually know that the ships aren't using their antimatter drives in normal space. Consider; when you scrap a ship you get some fuel out of the system that had been left in the pipes. But, if you order a ship constructed from your industry, and you pick the ship up from where it was made, with a fleet with 0 fuel in store, then scrap the ship, you still get fuel from it despite it having never gone into hyperspace or been in a fleet with fuel. Why? Because they use antimatter fuel for sublight travel as well, so part of the manufacturing process is priming the engine with antimatter fuel just to get it to fly out of the drydocks.
They just don't use enough that you ever run out of that initial 1 fuel that they prime the engine with before they take the stickers off the windows. If traveling 1 lightyear takes 1 fuel capsule, how long do you have to fly your ship in sublight to have used 1 fuel capsule? The answer is, far longer than your character's lifespan. And if you do enter hyperspace, that 1 fuel capsule that you've used less than 1% of flying around in sublight gets used first then replaced as the engine's priming capsule by the last capsule used.

that's my headcanon anyway. The way I look at it, the Domain developed such extremely fuel efficient engines that they effectively run forever unless you use them to do something stupid like fly between stars. Interesting thing to note here is that, if this is the case, that means that back during the Domain era, since people were using the stargates instead of hyperspace, you could use a ship without ever needing to refuel it. The gas in the tank when you buy it will last longer than your body will. Your grandkid's grandkids will still be using that 1 unit of fuel. Your entire bloodline could spent their entire waking lives running that ship in sublight and probably they'd invent a new kind of fuel & stop producing antimatter hundreds or thousands of years later before than 1 unit of fuel is used up. But then the gates get shut off, and 1 unit of fuel won't even get a kite from system to system...

edit: actually now that I think about it, that would mean that, barring hyperspace flight, antimatter isn't a fuel for space flight but is a catalyst for it, since it's required for the reaction but isn't (effectively) used up by it at all. That would mean that the actual fuel fuel of subspace flight is inside of the supply commodity your fleet uses. I wonder what that would be
« Last Edit: July 29, 2021, 11:11:27 PM by Deshara »
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Sutopia

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Re: Asteroid navigation sensor hullmod
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2021, 06:54:10 AM »

in general the idea is that at high levels/if you specialize it would be cool to mitigate that factor some
which i think would be cool: for someone who specializes in mining it would make sense if that fleet gets a bonus when moving through belts, as this would be experts and besides they would get a bonus when running from pirates in the early game, and chasing down fleets in the late game

Mining is a station/ground based operation and it wouldn’t require you to go fast in the asteroid field if at all moving. If you have mined in EVE online you would know it’s boring as hell since you’re just sitting near AFK and pointing your laser at rocks for a few minutes before moving on to the next, rinse and repeat. Mining ships are also some of the slowest ships among all ships in the same class. They really just go very slowly and carefully to not run into rocks, not with some fantasy maneuvers.

There are already enough tools for player to chase down any given fleet and I don’t think there needs more.
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6chad.noirlee9

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Re: Asteroid navigation sensor hullmod
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2021, 02:28:11 PM »

the point is that people who constantly mine asteroids would likely have more advanced maths in order to deal with the asteroid fields as efficiently as possible, which would naturally mitigate impacts if they were really good at applying/had even created/edited the algorithms

since players are asking for it, that must mean it holds at least some importance, and besides that, there really isnt any reason not to further improve the industry skill line and make it possible to improve the survivability/ability to chase down ships for players who just think it is cool to roleplay as a miner/scavenger that dabbles in smaller bounties.  you said yourself most mining ships are slow, wouldnt it therefor make sense to offer players a chance to make them more useful?  this isnt eve online either, mining takes a few seconds in starsector

i personally have always been offput by mining not being more of a thing in the sector, and really wish there were more options to make civ ships combat capable with the proper spec points

anyway everything we have been discussing is absolutely on topic as it directly pertains to the validity of the idea of being able to midigate asteroid impacts somehow

i think the best arguement for this is that each skill tree should offer (my opinion) a playstyle that can do essentially anything the others can, albeit with different methods

that is to say, regardless of which one you chose, you should (theoretically) be able to spec entirely in one tree and have the same overall increase in strength and ability to handle end game threats, just with WAY different methods.

why shouldnt a master of industry be able to make things run so well that it can deal with high level threats?  i mean, just because the luddic path cant do it doesnt mean it shouldnt be possible, especially considering the luddic path wont even use a microwave because "high tech bad"

i just really want to have an all civilian ship fleet that has been properly modified in order to be able to (perhaps not without losses, and i mean the industry tree practically screams "take losses but be good at it") but still be able to outright win and without unsustainable losses

one thing that i think should be a part of all of this is something to make mining better, like a skill setup that not only makes mining more efficient, but also buffs mining weapons (perhaps considerably) and makes ships outfitted as mining ships (maybe in the form of a hullmod that unlocks with the skill) that also reduces asteroid impact chance at when not moving slow, with diminishing returns on higher burn speeds.
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Sutopia

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Re: Asteroid navigation sensor hullmod
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2021, 02:30:15 PM »

the point is that people who constantly mine asteroids would likely have more advanced maths in order to deal with the asteroid fields as efficiently as possible, which would naturally mitigate impacts if they were really good at applying/had even created/edited the algorithms

since players are asking for it, that must mean it holds at least some importance, and besides that, there really isnt any reason not to further improve the industry skill line and make it possible to improve the survivability/ability to chase down ships for players who just think it is cool to roleplay as a miner/scavenger that dabbles in smaller bounties.  you said yourself most mining ships are slow, wouldnt it therefor make sense to offer players a chance to make them more useful?  this isnt eve online either, mining takes a few seconds in starsector

Mining asteroid is not vanilla. Miner is not a job in vanilla.

The only vanilla mining content is colony mining that doesn’t even require ship as input.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2021, 02:33:35 PM by Sutopia »
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6chad.noirlee9

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Re: Asteroid navigation sensor hullmod
« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2021, 03:20:14 PM »

it should be
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Sutopia

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Re: Asteroid navigation sensor hullmod
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2021, 03:35:58 PM »

it should be
No. It should be whichever mod that added mining to expand its content, not the other way around.
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JUDGE! slowpersun

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Re: Asteroid navigation sensor hullmod
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2021, 03:59:09 PM »

it should be
No. It should be whichever mod that added mining to expand its content, not the other way around.

If Alex wanted to implement something that is already in Nex, he already would have.  Either he is waiting to do it for some reason, or he never will.  Deal with it.

Also, asteroid miners are usually from Nex, unless there is another mod that adds this... do your research.
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Sutopia

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Re: Asteroid navigation sensor hullmod
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2021, 04:10:19 PM »

Also, asteroid miners are usually from Nex, unless there is another mod that adds this... do your research.

No insult but I shouldn’t be required to know something not vanilla to post in suggestions sub-forum since suggestion is mainly suggesting vanilla to implement a change; Thus I shouldn’t be asked to do a research on something I’m not interested and not vanilla unless you mean something else.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2021, 04:12:32 PM by Sutopia »
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6chad.noirlee9

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Re: Asteroid navigation sensor hullmod
« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2021, 05:19:05 PM »

no need to get up in arms, i just think it should be a part of the vanilla experience.
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