Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.95a is out! (03/26/21); Blog post: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts (09/24/21)

Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8

Author Topic: Make Guardian recoverable  (Read 3087 times)

Yunru

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 955
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #75 on: July 21, 2021, 12:31:36 PM »

Okay, that makes sense, buuut...
Missiles are the rangiest of weapons.
You could strip the Core entirely and it would still outrange most things.

BaBosa

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #76 on: July 21, 2021, 03:31:26 PM »

A note on the Guardians plasma jets system. It’s normal cool down is 10s which the wiki says is longer than the Auroras, though it doesn’t say how long the Auroras cool down is. So it’s not as fast on average as people are probably thinking, and getting systems expertise to pilot it would take all 3 of your possible top tier skills.

Also a note to those saying they don’t like the Guardian for x reason so it shouldn’t be implemented, your point is kinda irrelevant, as rude as that sounds.
What matters is that enough people like it that it’s worth the time and effort of Alex or some modder to make it and that it’s not so good that you have to get it, which if you take away the unlimited missiles it isn’t. 
And for those that want the unlimited missiles, if it’s implemented without that then you can just go to files and copy the original guardian data onto the player version.
I agree with Megas, the Guardian is an alternative to Radiant. Currently I don’t take AI ships because just having one worthwhile ship from that skill isn’t attractive.
Logged

Sutopia

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 902
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #77 on: July 21, 2021, 04:04:45 PM »

A note on the Guardians plasma jets system. It’s normal cool down is 10s which the wiki says is longer than the Auroras, though it doesn’t say how long the Auroras cool down is. So it’s not as fast on average as people are probably thinking, and getting systems expertise to pilot it would take all 3 of your possible top tier skills.

Also a note to those saying they don’t like the Guardian for x reason so it shouldn’t be implemented, your point is kinda irrelevant, as rude as that sounds.
What matters is that enough people like it that it’s worth the time and effort of Alex or some modder to make it and that it’s not so good that you have to get it, which if you take away the unlimited missiles it isn’t. 
And for those that want the unlimited missiles, if it’s implemented without that then you can just go to files and copy the original guardian data onto the player version.
I agree with Megas, the Guardian is an alternative to Radiant. Currently I don’t take AI ships because just having one worthwhile ship from that skill isn’t attractive.
I am against Guardian being player obtainable because it’s too good as a player ship.
One very important thin to note is that NPC variants are often not optimal so players don’t have a hard time fighting. There is a mod that’s only available on Chinese forum called “variant acknowledged” or something in that line that effectively make NPCs have very optimized builds which would actually make you suffer.
Does that count as don’t like the guardian for X reason? I don’t think so.
It’s about the worrying of power creep and the inability to reach consensus about how good a Guardian is, with or without autoforge; Also the knowledge about the code base to know the difficulty to have ad hoc hull modification.

If you have played 0.95a vanilla storyline you should know Ziggurat is obtained by the second salvaging dialogue but not in the conventional salvaging. Which means, the battle is a scripted event, not just a regular encounter. The ziggurat you actually get that has the purple mote stripped is given by a custom scripted salvaging. From that I would assume it’s extremely hard to make an ad-hoc hull specification change even to just strip a hullmod. What’s making it worse is the fact that Guardians are now appearing in contact bounties, which means they’re no longer bounded to cryosleeper that may be able to offer scripted battle for autoforge removed guardians. That’s why I have been talking as if it’s going to keep autoforge from the state of the code, I think it’ll take too much effort to implement just for one single hull.

It wouldn’t take even 5 minutes if you just want it in game. However, the concern here is that if obtaining guardian would make the game no longer challenging or fun because it’s extremely powerful. A bit too powerful. It is about balancing the whole time. I would admit I am not the one to put the final say in terms of “balance” and have been an absolute *** in trying to argue against obtainable Guardian, but the discussion has been mostly irrelevant to the question itself. Noone has talked about the cost to me in terms of convincing it being the right move to make guardian available. I listed my take: 100 with autoforge and 60 without. Just not 40. I don’t even know why someone was trying to argue about Aurora being better than Guardian.

FooF

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 780
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #78 on: July 21, 2021, 05:52:01 PM »

I’m on the fence. On the one hand, it would make Automated Ships a little more interesting than just the Radiant. It is an over-tuned ship that seems a little too strong in the player’s hands without modification, though the Zigg already set a precedent. It would be a strong ship even if you needed Tech Capstone to reach it but I don’t think it would be any more or less powerful than a Radiant. It would have to be 60 DP as-is or even modified. 

Personally, I’d never use it even if it was available. It’s a cool ship but it clashes strongly on an aesthetic level. It’s kind of a Geiger-esque abomination and that’s awesome but I don’t want to stare at it for an entire play through! I have some of the same feelings regarding the Zigg, though at a much reduced degree. At least I know they were playing with powers beyond their comprehension!
Logged

BaBosa

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #79 on: July 21, 2021, 06:58:19 PM »

So your issue with it can be summed up as, given the Ziggurat needs a seperate scripted salvage screen to get, the Guardian would need the same as so the effort needed to implement it without the unlimited missiles would be pretty high which makes it not worth implementing?
If that is the case, then I agree you have a point, although it should be up to Alex/modders to decide that as they would be the ones to make it.

Though, I’m wondering if the Ziggurat was given a separate screen to ensure it can be salvaged as well as change it? And possibly removing the infinite missile line wouldn’t need that or have an easy way to accomplish it? Idk.

I totally agree with giving it a high DP cost. It is strong, I heard Radiant’s DP is getting increased next update so matching it with that sounds fair.

As for it being too good for a player, while it’s definitely really good, is it much better than a well done Paragon or Radiant?

Spoiler
It’s range is a potential problem, but if you use ballistics, I think the travel time would be so long that even most capitals could dodge at extreme ranges and if you don’t look at extreme ranges it’s not much better than any capital with ITU. As for energy, well it can only have two and Paragon has four.

The other potential issue is speed, which is 40 +125 for 3s then cool down after 10s so an average speed of 68.3 ish. For this I’m just gonna show some examples.
Conquest is 45 +50 for about 5s then cool down after 5s so average speed is 70.
Radiant is 40 +300 instantly every 10s ish so average of 70(?).
So it’s not actually faster than other “fast” capitals.

Then there’s the issue of it being fast, long range and powerful allowing it to kite whole fleets that other ships cannot kill easily (1v1 doesn’t matter, 1v1 is not the normal and the Guardian can definitely kite, the question is, does it clearly kill fleets better than other ships)
So I’m gonna compare it to the Radiant again.

They both have comparable speeds so that’s not a factor.
Guardian has 200% range compared to Radiant with ITU 160%. Now this looks important but I say it’s not a huge deal, it’s good yes, but not huge. This is because I don’t think long range projectile weapons (Guass cannon) will be dodged even by capitals at extreme range and then looking at beams, Guardian only has two large slots for them which is not enough to kill capitals.
Then looking at other large ballistic and energy weapons. Most large Ballistics have a range of 1800 on G and the other energy have a range of 1500. Compared to beams on Radiant at 1600 (or 1920) so just looking at the topic of kiting I think it’s clear that the Guardian is not significantly better than the Radiant. Especially because the Radiant can mount five tachyon lances and has a base capacitance and dissipation to actually use them.
Now that’s not to say that the range boost is not significant, storm needlers with 1500 range sounds terrifying combined with tachyon or cyclone reapers would be really strong. Just not game breaking in my mind as it only has 4 mounts to Radiants 5 and only 2/3 the flux dissipation.
[close]
« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 07:04:31 PM by BaBosa »
Logged

Sutopia

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 902
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #80 on: July 21, 2021, 08:19:09 PM »

Spoiler
It’s range is a potential problem, but if you use ballistics, I think the travel time would be so long that even most capitals could dodge at extreme ranges and if you don’t look at extreme ranges it’s not much better than any capital with ITU. As for energy, well it can only have two and Paragon has four.

The other potential issue is speed, which is 40 +125 for 3s then cool down after 10s so an average speed of 68.3 ish. For this I’m just gonna show some examples.
Conquest is 45 +50 for about 5s then cool down after 5s so average speed is 70.
Radiant is 40 +300 instantly every 10s ish so average of 70(?).
So it’s not actually faster than other “fast” capitals.

Then there’s the issue of it being fast, long range and powerful allowing it to kite whole fleets that other ships cannot kill easily (1v1 doesn’t matter, 1v1 is not the normal and the Guardian can definitely kite, the question is, does it clearly kill fleets better than other ships)
So I’m gonna compare it to the Radiant again.

They both have comparable speeds so that’s not a factor.
Guardian has 200% range compared to Radiant with ITU 160%. Now this looks important but I say it’s not a huge deal, it’s good yes, but not huge. This is because I don’t think long range projectile weapons (Guass cannon) will be dodged even by capitals at extreme range and then looking at beams, Guardian only has two large slots for them which is not enough to kill capitals.
Then looking at other large ballistic and energy weapons. Most large Ballistics have a range of 1800 on G and the other energy have a range of 1500. Compared to beams on Radiant at 1600 (or 1920) so just looking at the topic of kiting I think it’s clear that the Guardian is not significantly better than the Radiant. Especially because the Radiant can mount five tachyon lances and has a base capacitance and dissipation to actually use them.
Now that’s not to say that the range boost is not significant, storm needlers with 1500 range sounds terrifying combined with tachyon or cyclone reapers would be really strong. Just not game breaking in my mind as it only has 4 mounts to Radiants 5 and only 2/3 the flux dissipation.
[close]

Spoiler
I have no idea where the 10 seconds cooldown come from tbh.
In the ship system definition, it clearly states that
Maneuvering Jets 1,5,1,5
Plasma Jets 1,3,2,5
The numbers are charge up, active, charge down, cool down time

Also you're off on all the numbers. Radiant with lances has range of 1600 (ITU)/ 1750 (+GI) / 1950 (+adv opt)
Storm needler has base range of 700 so it's 1400 base on Guardian, 1505 (+GI) / 1575 (GI + ballistic mastery) => that's begging to get outranged, similar to autopulse paragon.
However, Guardian does have the flux to support dual Mjolnir, which is 1800(base) / 1935 (+GI) / 2025 (+ballistic mastery)
Judging from its mounts, Guardian is really just conquest but better.
Do remind you the ballistic mastery elite have 50% increased projectile speed. The base projectile speed of Mjolnir projectile is 900, so it only takes 2 seconds to reach something at 1800 range and with skill it can be lowered to about 1.33 seconds.
Fury has shield radius of 144 and acceleration of 100. With helmsman but not using system a Fury can change the projected displacement in 1.35 seconds by 0.5*150*1.35^2 = 136.7, which is not enough to dodge a properly aimed Mjolnir (with ballistic mastery elite).

Edit (addend):
In such case, a Guardian spamming ship system has an average speed of around 78 since the speed bonus is already applied during charge up.
Conquest spamming ship system has an average seed of 68.
Radiant without system expertise has an average speed of 70 (10 seconds recharge, 300 range teleport)
HOWEVER, Radiant with SE can have an average speed of 107.5 (6.67 seconds recharge, 450 range teleport), enough to catch up with even destroyers. The best part about it is, phase skimmer does not generate flux upon activation, thus does not lose the zero flux bonus, pog.
[close]
« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 08:55:49 PM by Sutopia »
Logged

Amoebka

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 463
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #81 on: July 21, 2021, 08:20:56 PM »

We've all read the recent blog posts, right? Automated ships skill is changed rather dramatically, so Radiant already won't be the "only" option (it isn't right now either, gamma frigate spam is a thing). I guess if you are a capital ship fetishist who just wants the biggest ship with the biggest gun roflstomping everything it might feel that way, but that's not how the game plays for most people.

Quote
What matters is that enough people like it that it’s worth the time and effort of Alex or some modder to make it and that it’s not so good that you have to get it, which if you take away the unlimited missiles it isn’t. 

See, this is the problem. Guardian IS indeed so good you have to get it, even without missiles. If anything, my argument would be the opposite. You really want your OP godship - make a mod for it.
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 9585
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #82 on: July 22, 2021, 06:08:46 AM »

Remnant frigate spam is a thing because cores count as officers for now, which they will not for the player next release, so that use by late-game goes out the window.  I suppose player can get Auto Ships to use a bunch of AI frigates during early-mid game as a crutch.

I would not worry about Gauss cannons on Guardian.  Gauss is slow and not very effective against a group of small nimble targets.  900 range ballistics is more reasonable.

Paragon is not as good as it used to be.  It still has the firepower, but its defenses seem weaker despite being unchanged from before.

Radiant is a monster.  It is the only thing that makes Automated Ships worth taking instead of Special Modifications by the end of the game.  Of course, its competition will be Neural Link, which looks lackluster if not for its ability to pilot automated ships.

Quote
See, this is the problem. Guardian IS indeed so good you have to get it, even without missiles. If anything, my argument would be the opposite. You really want your OP godship - make a mod for it.
Unskilled Guardian does not seem much stronger, if at all, compared to Radiant in a brawl.  It has the mobility to run from corner to corner and lob unlimited missiles, which is rather degenerate.  (Enemy ships tend to avoid the corner.)  Strip unlimited missiles and it needs get in there and brawl.  Of course, that assumes both Automated Ships and Neural Link for player piloting.  If not for Neural Link, Guardian would be fine because AI would not exploit its advantages to the fullest.  Maybe Guardian can be made much better with skills, but player who wants to pilot it will only have seven skill points left for the other three trees.  Will that be enough compared to someone who goes for other top skills instead of the Auto Ship and Link combo?

And part of the point of getting Automated Ships is exotic (mildly) overpowered ships because player is giving up better skills for it.  If the only point of taking Automated Ships is to play as Ash Ketchum and collect more ships that are no better than human ships for your ship collection, then the skill is suboptimal at best and useless at worst.  Well, I guess someone can get Automated Ships and one of the top Industry skills for a live-off-the-land playthrough.
Logged

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 5817
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #83 on: July 22, 2021, 08:55:52 AM »

I haven't done it this version, but a few versions ago I had a Guardian build with linked hammer barrages and small missiles, dual mjolnir, and some ACGs for anti-small ship turret covereage, for the tournament that shall not be named. Even in AI hands its a monster - I'd estimate that particular build 3 times more powerful than a regular capital? Something like that, maybe more? As long as the AI can be convinced to hold down the missile trigger (which a player would just do by leaving autofire on). Hammer Barrages are extremely powerful, something like 2250 he dps from two of them. I suppose the missile skill would boost that by 50% even if we are talking about a command transfer not increasing missile ammo for the sabots (those will just bunch up more, so it will be 12 sabots every 10 seconds all at once). Off the top of my head I'm not sure what the refire time on sabot pods are, but the guardian is going to have more burst than the 4 sabot pod radiant on top of longer range.
Logged

Sutopia

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 902
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #84 on: July 22, 2021, 09:30:45 AM »

I haven't done it this version, but a few versions ago I had a Guardian build with linked hammer barrages and small missiles, dual mjolnir, and some ACGs for anti-small ship turret covereage, for the tournament that shall not be named. Even in AI hands its a monster - I'd estimate that particular build 3 times more powerful than a regular capital? Something like that, maybe more? As long as the AI can be convinced to hold down the missile trigger (which a player would just do by leaving autofire on). Hammer Barrages are extremely powerful, something like 2250 he dps from two of them. I suppose the missile skill would boost that by 50% even if we are talking about a command transfer not increasing missile ammo for the sabots (those will just bunch up more, so it will be 12 sabots every 10 seconds all at once). Off the top of my head I'm not sure what the refire time on sabot pods are, but the guardian is going to have more burst than the 4 sabot pod radiant on top of longer range.
The rearm time of sabot rack is 1 second and I’m fairly certain the missile spec skill increases max Ammo mid combat thus would kick in at the first refill.

Edit: rearm time for pods (both sabot and harpoon) is 9 seconds.
It makes harpoon pod an overall better choice due to burst size.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 04:29:29 PM by Sutopia »
Logged

Lucky33

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 848
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #85 on: July 22, 2021, 09:19:23 PM »

It is technically impossible to launch 12 sabots from two mounts all at once. It will be either two or four. 12 sabots from two small mounts will be launched in 3 (w. the buff). or 6 (w/o) seconds.

Hammer barrages can be placed only in the outward mounts. In the linked mode there will be misses even against capitals. You have to use alternating mode and rotate ship to utilize all the rockets. Point blank of course.
Logged

Sutopia

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 902
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #86 on: July 22, 2021, 11:15:25 PM »

It takes 6 seconds to launch 18 sabot using sabot rack WITH skill while sabot pod can only spit 8 WITH skill.
A typical capital requires at least 30k total damage to go through and even with 2k flux to damage at 1.0 flux efficiency it will take over 10 seconds to win a 1 vs 1 thus "all at once" should not be narrowly defined as under one second or at one mouse click.

Lucky33

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 848
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #87 on: July 23, 2021, 03:37:56 AM »

It also would make NL Radiant somewhat balanced because you won’t be able to get both missile spec and system spec and is capped at level 9 officer equivalent assuming you invested 7080.

Worth noting - you're likely better off getting System Spec for the Radiant because only the actual flagship benefits from +100% ammo, much like tranferring command also doesn't carry over that bonus.
Logged

Amoebka

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 463
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #88 on: July 23, 2021, 04:37:53 AM »

Remnant frigate spam is a thing because cores count as officers for now, which they will not for the player next release, so that use by late-game goes out the window.  I suppose player can get Auto Ships to use a bunch of AI frigates during early-mid game as a crutch.

AI cores are now multipliers instead of flat costs. This heavily favors small and medium sized ships. Right now you can choose between alpha radiant and 3 gamma fulgents. This is an easy choice indeed. Next version it will be alpha radiant or TWELVE gamma fulgents. I would, in fact, argue that picking radiant is a mistake (if you don't neural transfer).
Logged

Sutopia

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 902
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #89 on: July 23, 2021, 05:43:02 AM »

The bonus ammo does actually carry over.
It applies modifier to max ammo but since Radiant has no way of regenerating ammo it is stuck with the amount without.
 
« Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 05:44:33 AM by Sutopia »
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8