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Author Topic: Make Guardian recoverable  (Read 9971 times)

Lucky33

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #45 on: July 20, 2021, 07:09:49 AM »

Rift cascade only generate one rift at max range. It requires 200 range for every additional rift and it only deal as much hard flux as autopulse at autopulse range.

Phase skimmer has only 300 base range and 450 at SE.
Spamming all 4 gives 1800 range and it takes 6.66 seconds to recharge each charge.

On the other hand, plasma jets has 80 average speed increment over 6 seconds time span and 3.33 seconds cooldown, not that far off. Helmsman could help with this (increased acceleration).
Phase skimmer has more burst potential but is roughly on par with plasma jets in extensive use. Not to mention phase skimmer forces shield down.

Guardian has a 25k flux pool, same as Radiant, not sure what you're gonna use to insta delete Guardian.
Guardian without autoforge is literally the low tech version of Radiant (identical hull, identical flux cap, 5 larges)

It is generating hard flux at the same range as TL.

It is less. So it is possible for Radiant to catch up.

Guradian 25K flux, shield efficiency 1. Effective shielding is 25K.
Radiant 25K flux, shield efficiency 0,6. Effective shielding is 41K.

Dual VPDrivers w. EM deal 27K damage to shields. You can add to that:

About 10K energy damage from AMBs and RTL.
16K HE damage from dual Cyclones.
8K KE damage from quad sabots.

In a single click.

With a wide possibilities to adjust any of the above.
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Sutopia

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #46 on: July 20, 2021, 07:34:52 AM »

It is generating hard flux, yes, but have you checked how pathetic it is if only one rift it generated?
Rift cascade beam is a CQC weapon in first place.
Also, are you using console command or some other mods to summon all the desired omega weapons or what?
I don’t think a “standard” fit should be using omega weapons in first place. They are good to have and some are OP, meanwhile they are not guaranteed to be obtained especially large ones.
You may theory craft anything of course but that’s just unrealistic.

You are also missing solar shielding, hardened shield and the shield modulation in your formula. If you were to fight remnants it’s common sense to use solar shielding. You also did not take combat readiness induced increased shield efficiency into account.
On top of that, the missile spams and the short time your shield off after teleport has high chance getting weapons shut down by either sabot emp or hammer torp brute force damage. It’s bold to assume you may have full damage when you’re in range.

Just to make sure, we’re talking about player radiant efficiency versus player guardian efficiency. A guardian with autoforge can mop up an entire ordo. Can a lone radiant do that? Radiant is going to be 60 DP next patch, so if radiant can’t do that we’re looking at at least Ziggurat or more DP cost to be “balanced” for a “vanilla” guardian.
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Yunru

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #47 on: July 20, 2021, 08:16:57 AM »

I really don't get you Sutopia. No-one, and I mean practically no-one, is suggesting just taking the Guardian as-is and plopping it straight into the player's hands.

Of course, you've shown nothing but extreme bias against the idea, so I'm not sure what I should of been expecting.

But please, you only demean yourself with foolish claims (like something being "beyond broken" being a fact, when that is literally impossible) and snide quotation-marks-for-emphasis.

Sutopia

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #48 on: July 20, 2021, 08:40:45 AM »

Code wise it’s more than difficult to remove the autoforge for salvage given they are already released into the wild via bounties. Ziggurat is a guaranteed no salvage so the event can use some vodoo to remove purple motes, but that’s just straight impossible under current framework or requires a lot of fundamental call chain changes to realize for Guardian. I don’t think it’s worth the effort in changing a lot of core code just for this one hull. Also, judging from Tessaract being not obtainable as well, Guardian is no longer the weirdo.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2021, 09:00:29 AM by Sutopia »
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Lucky33

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #49 on: July 20, 2021, 08:56:05 AM »

It is generating hard flux, yes, but have you checked how pathetic it is if only one rift it generated?
Rift cascade beam is a CQC weapon in first place.
Also, are you using console command or some other mods to summon all the desired omega weapons or what?
I don’t think a “standard” fit should be using omega weapons in first place. They are good to have and some are OP, meanwhile they are not guaranteed to be obtained especially large ones.
You may theory craft anything of course but that’s just unrealistic.

You are also missing solar shielding, hardened shield and the shield modulation in your formula. If you were to fight remnants it’s common sense to use solar shielding. You also did not take combat readiness induced increased shield efficiency into account.
On top of that, the missile spams and the short time your shield off after teleport has high chance getting weapons shut down by either sabot emp or hammer torp brute force damage. It’s bold to assume you may have full damage when you’re in range.

Just to make sure, we’re talking about player radiant efficiency versus player guardian efficiency. A guardian with autoforge can mop up an entire ordo. Can a lone radiant do that? Radiant is going to be 60 DP next patch, so if radiant can’t do that we’re looking at at least Ziggurat or more DP cost to be “balanced” for a “vanilla” guardian.

Taking into account the difference between Paragon and Guardian flux capabilities it is not so pathetic.

No. On average, you are supposed to get 1-2 each Large ones, several Mediums and scores of Smalls. And I'm not suggesting something like Penta RTLs.

You can fit your ships as you like. I fit my as I like.

I've missed most modules, skills, fleet compositions and such. That's irrelevant. Opponent will be RNGed anyway.

It is rather unlikely that recoverable Guardian will keep its Autoforge unless someone will start rooting for it.
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Sutopia

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #50 on: July 20, 2021, 09:08:29 AM »

It is generating hard flux, yes, but have you checked how pathetic it is if only one rift it generated?
Rift cascade beam is a CQC weapon in first place.
Also, are you using console command or some other mods to summon all the desired omega weapons or what?
I don’t think a “standard” fit should be using omega weapons in first place. They are good to have and some are OP, meanwhile they are not guaranteed to be obtained especially large ones.
You may theory craft anything of course but that’s just unrealistic.

You are also missing solar shielding, hardened shield and the shield modulation in your formula. If you were to fight remnants it’s common sense to use solar shielding. You also did not take combat readiness induced increased shield efficiency into account.
On top of that, the missile spams and the short time your shield off after teleport has high chance getting weapons shut down by either sabot emp or hammer torp brute force damage. It’s bold to assume you may have full damage when you’re in range.

Just to make sure, we’re talking about player radiant efficiency versus player guardian efficiency. A guardian with autoforge can mop up an entire ordo. Can a lone radiant do that? Radiant is going to be 60 DP next patch, so if radiant can’t do that we’re looking at at least Ziggurat or more DP cost to be “balanced” for a “vanilla” guardian.

Taking into account the difference between Paragon and Guardian flux capabilities it is not so pathetic.

No. On average, you are supposed to get 1-2 each Large ones, several Mediums and scores of Smalls. And I'm not suggesting something like Penta RTLs.

You can fit your ships as you like. I fit my as I like.

I've missed most modules, skills, fleet compositions and such. That's irrelevant. Opponent will be RNGed anyway.

It is rather unlikely that recoverable Guardian will keep its Autoforge unless someone will start rooting for it.
Weird, I only got 3 larges last run defeating both hypershunts and the bounty.
Large weapons are not even guaranteed drop. It’s already quite hard to get two or more cascade emitter even with 4 drops. (6/16 chance assuming Tessaract variants has equal chance spawning each large weapon). 1 to 2 each has to be modded.

I agree that if Guardian is somehow made recoverable the missile autoforge must be stripped away. It can make a small sabot have more dps than a storm needler but flux free.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2021, 09:14:08 AM by Sutopia »
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Megas

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #51 on: July 20, 2021, 09:12:21 AM »

While I would like Guardian to keep unlimited missiles, even I can see it being problematic.  It would be similar to the unlimited Fast Missile Racks and Salamanders Venture and few other ships had in one of the 0.65a releases.  (However, ships are smarter today, and Guardian cannot solo simulator with missiles alone.)  If Guardian needs to lose unlimited missiles and gain other high costs (like Ziggurat has) to make it playable, so be it.

P.S.  When I killed the Tesseract brothers at both hypershunts, the only larges I found were a Cascade Rift Emitter, Rift Torpedo Launcher, and maybe the Volatile Particle Driver.  There were few other smaller weapons I did not pay enough attention to.  I did not get all of the Omega weapons I wanted to outfit my flagship.  (I did not bother grinding contact bounties for the Omega-led Ordos.)
« Last Edit: July 20, 2021, 09:16:45 AM by Megas »
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Yunru

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #52 on: July 20, 2021, 09:18:36 AM »

That seems to have a simple solution: Make the replenish time longer, so that the limited ammo size of small sabots matters again. Or just change the mounts to dual-type ones.

Sutopia

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #53 on: July 20, 2021, 09:29:58 AM »

That seems to have a simple solution: Make the replenish time longer, so that the limited ammo size of small sabots matters again. Or just change the mounts to dual-type ones.

How long does it need to be to stop hammer barrage spam?
Sabot pod also has considerable DPS just not as ridiculous as sabot rack.
From the Fury AI wars I learned that Fury is extremely bad after running out of missiles if it is a dual sabot pod fit. It’s extremely good while it lasts, which is about a minute or two? So an autoforge that replenishes per three minutes to not make them spammable?

Overall I think recharging limited amount missile is impossible to be balanced and the reason why no vanilla player ship does that. Even the missile cruiser has limited refills instead of infinite (so basically just another 2x to ammo capacity, or 3x with system expertise)
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Alex

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #54 on: July 20, 2021, 09:42:57 AM »

But please, you only demean yourself with foolish claims

Please stop the rudeness/personal attacks/etc. There's an interesting discussion to be had here and it's being derailed by the unnecessary hostility. If this continues at all warnings will be handed out, and possibly other moderator action will be taken, depending on the exact circumstances.

The only reason you're getting a second heads up is because you weren't involved in the thread previously and might've missed the quoted post. Regardless, though, personal attacks will not be tolerated here, or elsewhere on the forum. (Edit: well, you were involved in the thread before, but not in the assorted incivility...)
« Last Edit: July 20, 2021, 10:08:37 AM by Alex »
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Lucky33

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #55 on: July 20, 2021, 04:08:46 PM »

Weird, I only got 3 larges last run defeating both hypershunts and the bounty.
Large weapons are not even guaranteed drop. It’s already quite hard to get two or more cascade emitter even with 4 drops. (6/16 chance assuming Tessaract variants has equal chance spawning each large weapon). 1 to 2 each has to be modded.

I'm using loot from actual campaigns.
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Yunru

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #56 on: July 21, 2021, 04:04:02 AM »

If people are really that worried about the Missile Autoforge and continue to refuse to work around it, the easiest way to balance it would be to switch the Guardian's system to an unlimited (and slightly cheaper) version of what the Gryphon has.

Although I still say since the main point of concern seems to be using small missiles (or more specifically, the small sabot alone) for massive damage, the easier fix is to either prevent the small missiles being mounted, or extend the restock time so the limited ammo they possess remains a restraint.

KDR_11k

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #57 on: July 21, 2021, 05:31:40 AM »

"We don't have the tech to recover it fully so we bolted the wings onto an Onslaught"
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Lucky33

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #58 on: July 21, 2021, 07:49:47 AM »

I'd suggest doing something actually interesting. Like making Guardian into a true berserk. What is refusing to die in several cycles of reactivations. And shield disintegrator weapon. I mean we already have offensive stats blob in the form of Radiant and defensive one in the form of Paragon. So you can hardly make something new and fresh by changing stats and mounts. While Omega introduced very cool and weapon boss mechanics they are clrearly outworldish, hypertech exotics. As they should be.

But...

Why not have something more lowtechish? More feral.
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TaLaR

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #59 on: July 21, 2021, 08:13:49 AM »

If people are really that worried about the Missile Autoforge and continue to refuse to work around it, the easiest way to balance it would be to switch the Guardian's system to an unlimited (and slightly cheaper) version of what the Gryphon has.

Completely kills attractiveness of Guardian as player ship. I can live without unlimited missiles, it's combination of range + mobility that makes me interested.
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