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Author Topic: Make Guardian recoverable  (Read 3384 times)

Amoebka

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2021, 05:20:28 PM »

I haven't tried the Guardian itself, but mod ships with missile autoforges seem to understand full well their missiles are unlimited and spam them at the first opportunity with no second thought.

And no, having that hullmod in player fleet is not fine under any circumstances.
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Lucky33

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2021, 06:13:13 PM »

All smalls are hybrids. No sabots, sorry. You only have two mediums for them.
And that's where you put your sabot racks in. They shoot way faster than pods and it's irrelevant that you will be out of ammo in a second or two, because in another second or two it will be all regenerated.

They are mentioned right after that. And reload takes 10 seconds.

Are you simply unaware of the missile spec + rack pushing the stock of one small sabot to 9 missiles (which reloads per 10 second)?
That's translates to 1800 kinetic DPS if you just leave them auto fire to the oblivion, or bind them linked to your other mounts to force fire.
The point is, they never run out thanks to the magic hullmod, providing ridiculous flux free damage.

Burst wise it is way more than the Guardian (4x9+2x4=44 missiles in 4.5 sec against 2x9=18 in the same amount of time). Strike wise it is 8 missiles in a single volley.
I'm not entirely sure what you even mean by "burst". Aurora can do this only once and use up all it's small sabot while guardian is allowed to keep this DPS until running out of PPT.
Guardian is not made to burst, but made to last. If you have ever tried it even just in variant editor you would have known how stupidly good it is given you don't suck at fitting a ship.

I do aware. It is clear from what I wrote. Make some effort to actually read it.

Burst = amount of damage in a short amount of time.
Strike = simultaneous damage.

This "once" means that there will be one Radiant (or Guardian for that matter) less. And there is no problem with deploying 30 DP Aurora against either Radiant or Guardian. Each one. Even 40 DP as currently is.

In turn, same goes for Radiant and Onslaught while they provide 24 sabots in 10 seconds against Guardian's 18.

Practically speaking, Guardian's "to last" is just a cool euphemism to hide that its limited burst makes it strong only against enemies what are tier or two below it. It is understandable given its task of repelling exploration/salvaging fleets. However it is a downside compared to the true machines of war. Made not to last but to get the job done.
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Sutopia

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2021, 07:36:36 PM »

I mean you're basically trolling or trying to justify making Guardian a player usable ship atm.
If you have actually modded it in to do test play you would have known it can solo an entire ordo with a proper AI core.

Or do you prefer me to shred your arguments to pieces?

And two sabot pods is a very... unremarkable number for a capital ship. Trading two pods for triples result in even less remarkable loadout.
A proof of you totally don't understand the reloading being the OP part. It's not just a random capital but a behemoth that can reload ALL missiles in 10 seconds.

36k shield damage before reload is about an average Brilliant flux capacity. Per 10 seconds. Capital destroying single cruiser per 10 seconds is, again, nothing remarkable. 4k shield damage per click is a mediocre figure even on the frigate scale.
I mean, lmao, are you using a guardian with ONLY two sabot racks? What are you even doing math upon?
For it's 1000 + easily another 500 vent it can mount another two storm needler without sweating and on top of that, two hammer barrages packing a little more than "merely" 2k HE DPS with no skills, and 1.5x that with missile spec.

4k shield damage per click is a mediocre figure even on the frigate scale.
I don't even want to judge this one as it simply proves you don't know how to fit a ship for AI.

This "once" means that there will be one Radiant (or Guardian for that matter) less. And there is no problem with deploying 30 DP Aurora against either Radiant or Guardian. Each one. Even 40 DP as currently is.
Yes, please, solo a radiant with just an aurora. If you have wasted all that OP on sabots I doubt how you can break it's armor, not to mention hull.

Practically speaking, Guardian's "to last" is just a cool euphemism to hide that its limited burst makes it strong only against enemies what are tier or two below it. It is understandable given its task of repelling exploration/salvaging fleets. However it is a downside compared to the true machines of war. Made not to last but to get the job done.
Limited burst ... lol ... limited ...
Practically speaking you're using an entire ship's worth of ordnance in comparison of just two racks of Guardian not to mention it has the plasma burn system to catch up with even frigates, and the advanced targeting computer to shred things at range. It has second to onslaught armor and formidable hull as well. Even without infinite missile, these figures would easily make it at 60+ DP since it's effectively a low tech version of radiant.


Make some effort to actually read it.
Make some effort to actually try it in game.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2021, 07:51:07 PM by Sutopia »
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Lucky33

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2021, 10:05:58 PM »

I mean you're basically trolling or trying to justify making Guardian a player usable ship atm.

If someone is not agreeing with you it doesn't mean that you are being trolled. It means that other person have different opinion and there is also a possibility that yours is wrong.

And two sabot pods is a very... unremarkable number for a capital ship. Trading two pods for triples result in even less remarkable loadout.
A proof of you totally don't understand the reloading being the OP part. It's not just a random capital but a behemoth that can reload ALL missiles in 10 seconds.

The 10 seconds part is mentioned right after that.

36k shield damage before reload is about an average Brilliant flux capacity. Per 10 seconds. Capital destroying single cruiser per 10 seconds is, again, nothing remarkable. 4k shield damage per click is a mediocre figure even on the frigate scale.
I mean, lmao, are you using a guardian with ONLY two sabot racks? What are you even doing math upon?
For it's 1000 + easily another 500 vent it can mount another two storm needler without sweating and on top of that, two hammer barrages packing a little more than "merely" 2k HE DPS with no skills, and 1.5x that with missile spec.

You literally can't put more than two small sabots onto Guardian. This is why I have to do math with only that. And guns are not affected by its missile forge subsystem in any way neither they have flux-free DPS. Dual Hammer barrage can be fitted on the Radiant. Together with quad sabot pods.

4k shield damage per click is a mediocre figure even on the frigate scale.
I don't even want to judge this one as it simply proves you don't know how to fit a ship for AI.

Or I do know.

This "once" means that there will be one Radiant (or Guardian for that matter) less. And there is no problem with deploying 30 DP Aurora against either Radiant or Guardian. Each one. Even 40 DP as currently is.
Yes, please, solo a radiant with just an aurora. If you have wasted all that OP on sabots I doubt how you can break it's armor, not to mention hull.



Practically speaking, Guardian's "to last" is just a cool euphemism to hide that its limited burst makes it strong only against enemies what are tier or two below it. It is understandable given its task of repelling exploration/salvaging fleets. However it is a downside compared to the true machines of war. Made not to last but to get the job done.
Limited burst ... lol ... limited ...
Practically speaking you're using an entire ship's worth of ordnance in comparison of just two racks of Guardian not to mention it has the plasma burn system to catch up with even frigates, and the advanced targeting computer to shred things at range. It has second to onslaught armor and formidable hull as well. Even without infinite missile, these figures would easily make it at 60+ DP since it's effectively a low tech version of radiant.

All those infinite missiles afterwards mean nothing when you don't have enough at the right moment. Flux regeneration is also infinite you know.

Your argument was:

They are more broken then you could ever imagine.
I'd rate them at 100 DP no less, as one with proper fit can beat 2 stock onslaught head on with autopilot and no officer.

Player fitted Onslaught can beat them too. So what?

I don't think you understand how ridiculous it is to have 1.5k flux free kinetic DPS plus 3k flux free HE DPS (missile spec hammer barrage + small sabot with rack)

Missiles. Have anything more to say on the matter?

Make some effort to actually read it.
Make some effort to actually try it in game.

I did.
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TaLaR

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2021, 12:03:35 AM »

Player-piloted Guardian is pretty much impossible to kill, even if it lost unlimited missiles. High fire-power + ATC + system-granted speed means it can kite whole fleets to death with ease.

Frankly, I don't like the way it exists currently - teasing the player with an inaccessible eye-candy of this quality is just cruel. AI doesn't make use of ship's properties anyway, so there is no need for Guardian to be what it is as an AI-controlled boss.
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Sutopia

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2021, 12:44:07 AM »

Your argument was:

They are more broken then you could ever imagine.
I'd rate them at 100 DP no less, as one with proper fit can beat 2 stock onslaught head on with autopilot and no officer.

Player fitted Onslaught can beat them too. So what?

I don't think you understand how ridiculous it is to have 1.5k flux free kinetic DPS plus 3k flux free HE DPS (missile spec hammer barrage + small sabot with rack)

Missiles. Have anything more to say on the matter?

I think, your problem is then the lack of reading comprehension.
Did I mention a word about it's "maximum" DPS or "total" DPS?
Or do you not agree that the fabric of the battle is flux war?

Despite you mentioning the 10 second recharge it's totally not an excuse to state
Trading two pods for triples result in even less remarkable loadout.
As a matter of fact, small sabot racks provide both better DPS and better burst damage on a Guardian, hands down, there is no dispute.
The only explanation you could've said that is you have never tested it.

Oh and how adorable is your fit, using obviously OP weapon namely cryoblaster. Mind using something more standard?
I was honestly expecting a SO fit. Your current fit can only YOLO and not even guaranteed to alpha overload a radiant.
Not sure what your officer skills and personality, but putting these up in AI wars the auroras got slaughtered by either of the variant. They are just sand bags after the initial sabots failed to overload the radiant and the rest is history.

Lucky33

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2021, 01:53:16 AM »

Your argument was:

They are more broken then you could ever imagine.
I'd rate them at 100 DP no less, as one with proper fit can beat 2 stock onslaught head on with autopilot and no officer.

Player fitted Onslaught can beat them too. So what?

I don't think you understand how ridiculous it is to have 1.5k flux free kinetic DPS plus 3k flux free HE DPS (missile spec hammer barrage + small sabot with rack)

Missiles. Have anything more to say on the matter?

I think, your problem is then the lack of reading comprehension.
Did I mention a word about it's "maximum" DPS or "total" DPS?
Or do you not agree that the fabric of the battle is flux war?

If you didn't write something there is no way for me to read it. So we are discussing things that you actually have written. No comprehension problems on my side.

Despite you mentioning the 10 second recharge it's totally not an excuse to state

It is a perfect excuse in our case.

Trading two pods for triples result in even less remarkable loadout.
As a matter of fact, small sabot racks provide both better DPS and better burst damage on a Guardian, hands down, there is no dispute.
The only explanation you could've said that is you have never tested it.

Oh and how adorable is your fit, using obviously OP weapon namely cryoblaster. Mind using something more standard?
I was honestly expecting a SO fit. Your current fit can only YOLO and not even guaranteed to alpha overload a radiant.
Not sure what your officer skills and personality, but putting these up in AI wars the auroras got slaughtered by either of the variant. They are just sand bags after the initial sabots failed to overload the radiant and the rest is history.


Triples have lower strike capabilities. 2 missiles against 4 with the pods. And, honestly, since both options were mentioned, what is your point?

I like that your like my fit. It is for the player not for AI.
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Lucky33

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2021, 01:55:30 AM »

Player-piloted Guardian is pretty much impossible to kill, even if it lost unlimited missiles. High fire-power + ATC + system-granted speed means it can kite whole fleets to death with ease.

Frankly, I don't like the way it exists currently - teasing the player with an inaccessible eye-candy of this quality is just cruel. AI doesn't make use of ship's properties anyway, so there is no need for Guardian to be what it is as an AI-controlled boss.

Kiting as with Gausses at max range? It will take forever to kite Ordo.
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BaBosa

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2021, 05:08:54 AM »

I like the idea of getting the Guardian, as long as the missile recovery special is removed of course and probably reduce OP while at it.
It seems kinda like the low tech counterpart to the Paragon. They both have ATC and Flux cap is the same though P has 1/4 more dissipation (that just seems to be there to counter the high shield upkeep anyway). Armour and hull are similar, P has 1.5k armour and G has 1.7k.
Though they differ a lot with shields, 0.6 efficiency, 360* omni shield with fortress vs 1 efficiency, 200* front shield.
And speed too though the difference isn't as huge, P with 30 vs G with 40 and plasma jets.
Then weapons, P has 4 big Eng, 4 med Eng and 2 med Uni vs 2 big Mis/Bal, 3 big Eng/Bal, 6 med Eng/Bal, 2 med Mis and both have other smalls.
So G has 1 more large mount and 2 more medium mounts (but 5 less smalls if you care) but if you bring G's OP down to match that doesn't matter too much.
However most of the mounts on G face forward unlike P who's are on turrets which combined with 360* shield make it much more reliable using those mounts.
On the other hand, G has more variety in it's weapons, able to have a large weapon of every type rather than just energy which doesn't have much variety anyway. Ballistics has kenetic and HE close and long range options, then missiles provide powerful strike capability allowing much more optimised builds.
Overall, after giving it the obvious nerf and maybe lowering OP, the Guardian actually looks reasonable compared to the Paragon but more dependent on good loadout and piloting.
Also I noticed that on the wiki, the Guardian has missile auto forge under hullmods though its a ship system??? Don't know what's going on there but it should be removed as well. Extended missile racks and character missile skill will give enough missiles.
Edit: Damn, I just read the other replies and what's with all the hostility. The weirdest part is that the main issue seems to be the regenerating missiles but right in the initial post it said suggested getting rid of that. As for the mention of kiting, it has to face forwards to shoot so it can't really use plasma jets effectively making it just 40 speed, the only thing it could kite is the Paragon.
If anyone still thinks it's over powered, just go to wiki and compare Guardian vs Radiant.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2021, 05:32:06 AM by BaBosa »
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Yunru

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2021, 05:32:41 AM »

I like the idea of getting the Guardian, as long as the missile recovery special is removed of course
Ah yes, just gut the very thing that makes it interesting and unique.

Sutopia

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2021, 06:13:44 AM »

Edit: Damn, I just read the other replies and what's with all the hostility. The weirdest part is that the main issue seems to be the regenerating missiles but right in the initial post it said suggested getting rid of that. As for the mention of kiting, it has to face forwards to shoot so it can't really use plasma jets effectively making it just 40 speed, the only thing it could kite is the Paragon.
If anyone still thinks it's over powered, just go to wiki and compare Guardian vs Radiant.

So here’s the problem: without mods there are only two guardians per sector, nearly as rare as Ziggurat. Without the missile autoforge it doesn’t feel “unique”; With missile autoforge it’s beyond broken. Unless someone can come up with a third solution we’re in a perpetual stalemate.

Sutopia

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2021, 06:46:23 AM »

Quote
With missile autoforge it’s beyond broken
That is a claim, not a fact.
This is a fact, not a claim.

SCC

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2021, 07:29:31 AM »

I've seen this pop up here and there, so it's important to state that Guardians are, in fact, unlimited. The way you can farm them is from military contacts, who sometimes have a bounty on a derelict fleet, who typically also have Guardians (and Derelict Contingent).

Alex

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2021, 07:49:40 AM »

I do aware. It is clear from what I wrote. Make some effort to actually read it.
I think, your problem is then the lack of reading comprehension.
...
Oh and how adorable is your fit, using obviously OP weapon namely cryoblaster. Mind using something more standard?
I mean you're basically trolling

Please stop the rudeness/personal attacks/etc. There's an interesting discussion to be had here and it's being derailed by the unnecessary hostility. If this continues at all warnings will be handed out, and possibly other moderator action will be taken, depending on the exact circumstances.
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