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Author Topic: Make Guardian recoverable  (Read 3338 times)

Megas

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Make Guardian recoverable
« on: July 17, 2021, 07:32:26 AM »

And raise DP to 60+.  It seems to be on par with the likes of Radiant or Ziggurat.  If unlimited missiles are a problem, remove that hullmod when recovered (as done with Ziggurat's improved purple motes).
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Sutopia

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2021, 07:44:35 AM »

They are more broken then you could ever imagine.
I'd rate them at 100 DP no less, as one with proper fit can beat 2 stock onslaught head on with autopilot and no officer.

Yunru

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2021, 07:47:37 AM »

They are more broken then you could ever imagine.
I'd rate them at 100 DP no less, as one with proper fit can beat 2 stock onslaught head on with autopilot and no officer.
From playing around with unlimited missiles ships, pairing them against a few big ships heavily favours them. Where they struggle tends to be against more numerous ships. They'll still take out on or two very quickly, but they can also get surrounded and overwhelmed very quick. Of course, loadout also makes a massive difference in performance.

Lucky33

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2021, 07:56:42 AM »

And raise DP to 60+.  It seems to be on par with the likes of Radiant or Ziggurat.  If unlimited missiles are a problem, remove that hullmod when recovered (as done with Ziggurat's improved purple motes).

Agree.

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Lucky33

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2021, 07:58:48 AM »

They are more broken then you could ever imagine.
I'd rate them at 100 DP no less, as one with proper fit can beat 2 stock onslaught head on with autopilot and no officer.

Player fitted Onslaught can beat them too. So what?
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Sutopia

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2021, 08:02:20 AM »

They are more broken then you could ever imagine.
I'd rate them at 100 DP no less, as one with proper fit can beat 2 stock onslaught head on with autopilot and no officer.

Player fitted Onslaught can beat them too. So what?

I don't think you understand how ridiculous it is to have 1.5k flux free kinetic DPS plus 3k flux free HE DPS (missile spec hammer barrage + small sabot with rack)

Megas

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2021, 09:34:16 AM »

From the brief test drive of the Guardian, its main gimmick is kiting plus unlimited missiles.  Take away the unlimited missiles, and it is simply a bruiser with good firepower and mobility.  But the firepower is primarily forward.  If Guardian gets swarmed, it can be a problem.

Even with unlimited missiles, Guardian still has PPT to worry about.  I could not solo the simulator with missile cheese alone, and if I try to brawl, the swarm of small ships with eat Guardian up.

As an AI ship, unless Alex adds personality change, Fearless will gut kiting, so it may be only abusive with Automated Ships and Neural Link, which is more than half of the players skill points to get.
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SCC

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2021, 10:35:46 AM »

Considering that Radiant is recoverable and it's even stronger, I would be fine with Guardian having an NPC-only variant with missile autoforge, and recoverable player variant that doesn't have unlimited missiles.
In AI hands. I just remembered will be possible to have player control over it, so I'm not so sure about this anymore...

Lucky33

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2021, 10:35:56 AM »

They are more broken then you could ever imagine.
I'd rate them at 100 DP no less, as one with proper fit can beat 2 stock onslaught head on with autopilot and no officer.

Player fitted Onslaught can beat them too. So what?

I don't think you understand how ridiculous it is to have 1.5k flux free kinetic DPS plus 3k flux free HE DPS (missile spec hammer barrage + small sabot with rack)

All smalls are hybrids. No sabots, sorry. You only have two mediums for them. And two sabot pods is a very... unremarkable number for a capital ship. Trading two pods for triples result in even less remarkable loadout. Enforcer have four, Aurora have four smalls and two meds. Burst wise it is way more than the Guardian (4x9+2x4=44 missiles in 4.5 sec against 2x9=18 in the same amount of time). Strike wise it is 8 missiles in a single volley. Same goes for Radiant and Onslaught. Against Guardian's two. 36k shield damage before reload is about an average Brilliant flux capacity. Per 10 seconds. Capital destroying single cruiser per 10 seconds is, again, nothing remarkable. 4k shield damage per click is a mediocre figure even on the frigate scale.
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SCC

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2021, 10:38:31 AM »

All smalls are hybrids. No sabots, sorry. You only have two mediums for them.
And that's where you put your sabot racks in. They shoot way faster than pods and it's irrelevant that you will be out of ammo in a second or two, because in another second or two it will be all regenerated.

Lucky33

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2021, 10:40:41 AM »

All smalls are hybrids. No sabots, sorry. You only have two mediums for them.
And that's where you put your sabot racks in. They shoot way faster than pods and it's irrelevant that you will be out of ammo in a second or two, because in another second or two it will be all regenerated.

They are mentioned right after that. And reload takes 10 seconds.
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BreenBB

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2021, 12:19:31 PM »

Its fun ship to play with, especially considering how customizable it, I personally edited files to get it recoverable, also I did this for Doritos, but they a bit bugged in player hands, battle won't end until you order it to retreat, and its just looks strange from lore perspective too, I understand unrecoverable Doritos, its strange thing which no one saw before, and its shatters to smaller ships when it got destroyed, but guardian, its not something unique like Doritos, since they appear in unique bounties and they guard cryosleepers, and you can recover Radiant, which isn't not much weaker that Guardian.

From "overpowered" features its only have unlimited missiles, but again, missiles are pretty much broken in original game, they might be powerful, but have huge drawbacks of being limited use and being shot off easily by good PDs, so they only useful on Guardian because of unlimited ammo, or on insta-kill Doom, in other ships I usually avoid them, because instead of having limited use weapon you can have better Flux stats or Hullmod which personally I consider more useful.

In my way better way to fix that is rebalance missiles into actual weapon, rather that being limited use "powerup" weapon by making them regenerate ammo, and slight decrease in power, like author of Archean Order did that, missiles in that mod have regenerating ammo, and balanced so they doesn't feel too weak or overpowered.

And I feel like people here to afraid of overpowered stuff, if you can beat Omegas or Ordos with Radiants or Guardian bounties, having that Guardian will not make much difference in power between player controlled Doom or Derelict Contingent Onslaught or Best Tech ships like Doom or ParaGod or Radiant.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2021, 12:24:54 PM by BreenBB »
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Sutopia

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2021, 02:38:43 PM »

All smalls are hybrids. No sabots, sorry. You only have two mediums for them.
And that's where you put your sabot racks in. They shoot way faster than pods and it's irrelevant that you will be out of ammo in a second or two, because in another second or two it will be all regenerated.

They are mentioned right after that. And reload takes 10 seconds.

Are you simply unaware of the missile spec + rack pushing the stock of one small sabot to 9 missiles (which reloads per 10 second)?
That's translates to 1800 kinetic DPS if you just leave them auto fire to the oblivion, or bind them linked to your other mounts to force fire.
The point is, they never run out thanks to the magic hullmod, providing ridiculous flux free damage.

Burst wise it is way more than the Guardian (4x9+2x4=44 missiles in 4.5 sec against 2x9=18 in the same amount of time). Strike wise it is 8 missiles in a single volley.
I'm not entirely sure what you even mean by "burst". Aurora can do this only once and use up all it's small sabot while guardian is allowed to keep this DPS until running out of PPT.
Guardian is not made to burst, but made to last. If you have ever tried it even just in variant editor you would have known how stupidly good it is given you don't suck at fitting a ship.

Yunru

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2021, 02:40:19 PM »

Unfortunately it doesn't matter that you could theoretically fire 9 every ten seconds, because the AI still thinks in terms of "I can fire 9. Total."

Sutopia

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2021, 02:50:46 PM »

Unfortunately it doesn't matter that you could theoretically fire 9 every ten seconds, because the AI still thinks in terms of "I can fire 9. Total."
or you can do this instead
{
    "displayName": "Standard",
    "fluxCapacitors": 50,
    "fluxVents": 50,
    "hullId": "guardian",
    "hullMods": [
        "eccm",
        "hardenedshieldemitter",
        "heavyarmor",
        "armoredweapons",
        "stabilizedshieldemitter",
        "missleracks",
        "fluxbreakers"
    ],
    "permaMods": [],
    "sMods": [],
    "variantId": "guardian_Standard",
    "weaponGroups": [
        {
            "autofire": false,
            "mode": "LINKED",
            "weapons": {
                "WS 005": "heavyneedler",
                "WS 006": "hammerrack",
                "WS 007": "multineedler",
                "WS 008": "hellbore",
                "WS 009": "hammerrack",
                "WS 010": "sabot",
                "WS 011": "sabot",
                "WS 012": "lightneedler",
                "WS 013": "lightneedler",
                "WS 018": "lightneedler",
                "WS 019": "lightneedler"
            }
        },
        {
            "autofire": true,
            "mode": "LINKED",
            "weapons": {"WS 020": "guardian"}
        },
        {
            "autofire": false,
            "mode": "LINKED",
            "weapons": {"WS 003": "dualflak"}
        },
        {
            "autofire": false,
            "mode": "LINKED",
            "weapons": {"WS 000": "flak"}
        },
        {
            "autofire": false,
            "mode": "LINKED",
            "weapons": {"WS 004": "flak"}
        }
    ]
}
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