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Starsector 0.95a is out! (03/26/21); Blog post: Skill Changes, Part 2 (07/15/21)

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Author Topic: Make Guardian recoverable  (Read 2747 times)

Lucky33

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #90 on: July 23, 2021, 06:41:33 AM »

It doesn't.
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Sutopia

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #91 on: July 23, 2021, 07:08:37 AM »

Oh. Right. It uses a stat pre-ship creation and the max ammo is set during ship creation and is never re-calculated after that point. How did I forget the 6 hour frustration on manipulating bomber ammo count.

Still doesn’t stop AI core from abusing it, but you can at most field a beta and must have combat endurance (and max effect crew training) to make it 40% CR - the bare minimum to not malfunction. (Assuming it will cost 100 DP because unlimited missiles)
As long as you don’t field any short range weapons on it (namely flak and whatever goes in small slot) it will fight at distance. It’s mostly about manipulating AI behavior. In an AI vs AI combat a properly fit guardian can crush radiant with ease.
Again - it’s just conquest but better without unlimited missiles.

Can you clarify your stance real quick? As I have stated I generally am against Guardian be obtainable but would accept if it has the right cost. 100 for one have autoforge and 60 without.
What is your take? I don’t know what you’re arguing for. You’re not giving any actual suggestion from the beginning.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 07:13:31 AM by Sutopia »
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BaBosa

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #92 on: July 23, 2021, 07:36:25 AM »

While lucky didn’t say it. Megas , in the original post, said DP cost of 60+ was what he was thinking and I agree with that. I wouldn’t use it for 100DP myself even with unlimited missiles but that sounds fair too.
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Megas

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #93 on: July 23, 2021, 07:50:32 AM »

Guardian without unlimited missiles is at least on par with Radiant, and if Radiant will be bumped to 60 DP, then so should it at the minimum.  If Guardian keeps unlimited missiles, then it probably should be worth more, at least 75 DP (and more is not unreasonable).  Ziggurat has unlimited motes (which might as well be missiles), but the blue ones the player can use do no damage.  Guardian's unlimited missiles will cause damage.

Also, playable Guardian could share Ziggurat's other unique quirks, namely extreme CR deployment cost and/or distinct profile that auto-identifies your fleet (so no stealth ops for you).
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SCC

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #94 on: July 23, 2021, 07:52:08 AM »

If flying around with a Radiant permits stealth, I don't see a reason for the Guardian to be treated differently.

Lucky33

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #95 on: July 23, 2021, 08:41:23 AM »

Oh. Right. It uses a stat pre-ship creation and the max ammo is set during ship creation and is never re-calculated after that point. How did I forget the 6 hour frustration on manipulating bomber ammo count.

Still doesn’t stop AI core from abusing it, but you can at most field a beta and must have combat endurance (and max effect crew training) to make it 40% CR - the bare minimum to not malfunction. (Assuming it will cost 100 DP because unlimited missiles)
As long as you don’t field any short range weapons on it (namely flak and whatever goes in small slot) it will fight at distance. It’s mostly about manipulating AI behavior. In an AI vs AI combat a properly fit guardian can crush radiant with ease.
Again - it’s just conquest but better without unlimited missiles.

Can you clarify your stance real quick? As I have stated I generally am against Guardian be obtainable but would accept if it has the right cost. 100 for one have autoforge and 60 without.
What is your take? I don’t know what you’re arguing for. You’re not giving any actual suggestion from the beginning.

I don't see current implementation of the Guardian as a supership on pair with the Radiant. Mostly due to mediocre flux stats.

I see kiting tactics as a forced option for the weak side to level the fight against the strong opposition. Supership isn't supposed to be second to anything. And I despise dragged out fights anyway.

I have absolutely no problems with Guardian being recoverable. The current version interests me merely as a trophy to put it on a wall.

Infinite missiles are of no concerns to me since I've destroyed countless Guardians with their infinite missiles in the campaign. For the most part the "infinite missiles" feature is completely balanced out by the mounts configuration and RNG. From the player perspective it has very limited alpha strike. Automatically derating the ship into a support platform. Hence will Guardian keep it or not doesn't concern me at all.
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Sutopia

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #96 on: July 23, 2021, 09:15:15 AM »

Mediocre flux comparing to what?
It’s objectively a better conquest.
It has base 1k dissipation and more than enough OP to max out both dissipation and capacity even without a single S mod which most ships simply cannot achieve.
On top of that is has 1700 base armor which is almost on par with onslaught.

Kiting is always the superior tactic when you can do so. It means you can damage the opponent while they are not able to fight back at all and you may pick engagement as you please. Kiting requires both better range AND better mobility which is exclusive to Guardian in the entire game.

You can beat guardian in campaign is because it has non-optimal loadout and due to faction setting it seldom if at all deviate from the target variant. It’s a total waste of the two larges mounting it with Locust. It also has flak cannon that only has 60% range bonus from ATC and due to how AI is set up it will simply discard its very advantage of having ATC and brawl at less than 1k range. It also utilized [sabot pod] instead of [sabot rack with expanded missile rack] which is the difference of 667 dps and 1200 kinetic DPS assuming not having missile spec for the latter.

I simply have to dismiss the argument of lack of alpha strike as you cannot properly quantify the metrics. You have been asserting the alpha strike from missiles to be only one salvo which doesn’t make any realistic implication. In reality, the infinite sabot rack is extremely problematic especially with missile spec as they are able to reach target at 1800 range and is actually in sync with Mjolnir range.

Can you post your best radiant fit (s mods allowed, customize weapon group however you want) and let me run it against a “properly” fit guardian (fit by me) in AI wars mod? I think only by crushing the radiant in a fair test (player fit) can I convince you it’s overpowered if it’s handed to you as it is now. I simply don’t believe you have ever actually used guardian yourself to make these bold claims.

Lucky33

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #97 on: July 23, 2021, 09:52:53 AM »

Compared to Paragon and Radiant.

It is the problem of the weaker ship that it can't allow itself to get shot. Stronger ship doesn't care. It is being stronger for this particular reason.

The point being: currently, campaign Guardian is one the most un-impressive boss ships.

It is very easy to quantify the metrics of the alpha strike. It is the damage per strike. The realistic implication of it is the ability to overload the target and/or destroy it instantaneously.

I see zero sense in any experiments with the current ships right before general overhaul of the game.
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Sutopia

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #98 on: July 23, 2021, 09:55:21 AM »

Compared to Paragon and Radiant.

It is the problem of the weaker ship that it can't allow itself to get shot. Stronger ship doesn't care. It is being stronger for this particular reason.

Have you never read the blog post about two tech levels?

(Regarding your excuses for not testing)
You can hide but you cannot run. Even with skill changes the majority of the skills are unchanged and it’s fairly easy to set such fight up. It’s even easier of you’re willing to test it without skills as there won’t be changes to hull specifications aside from deployment points of radiant. If you still can’t do that I will have no choice but to parse that as your inability to prove your arguments.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 10:01:24 AM by Sutopia »
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Amoebka

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #99 on: July 23, 2021, 10:50:08 AM »

The point being: currently, campaign Guardian is one the most un-impressive boss ships.

Campaign guardian has a suboptimal loadout, suboptimal officer, VERY suboptimal weapon group(s), is fought without a supporting fleet, limited by autopilot being dumb, in addition to a mismatched officer personality and the hidden never-back-off behaviour automated ships get.

A player-piloted properly fitted guardian is basically a completely different ship that has nothing to do with the campaign boss.
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Lucky33

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #100 on: July 23, 2021, 11:13:12 AM »

Compared to Paragon and Radiant.

It is the problem of the weaker ship that it can't allow itself to get shot. Stronger ship doesn't care. It is being stronger for this particular reason.

Have you never read the blog post about two tech levels?

(Regarding your excuses for not testing)
You can hide but you cannot run. Even with skill changes the majority of the skills are unchanged and it’s fairly easy to set such fight up. It’s even easier of you’re willing to test it without skills as there won’t be changes to hull specifications aside from deployment points of radiant. If you still can’t do that I will have no choice but to parse that as your inability to prove your arguments.

I did read it.

Radiant officially will become player controllable. AI on AI action will turn into a substitute for a real thing.
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Lucky33

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #101 on: July 23, 2021, 11:20:29 AM »

The point being: currently, campaign Guardian is one the most un-impressive boss ships.

Campaign guardian has a suboptimal loadout, suboptimal officer, VERY suboptimal weapon group(s), is fought without a supporting fleet, limited by autopilot being dumb, in addition to a mismatched officer personality and the hidden never-back-off behaviour automated ships get.

A player-piloted properly fitted guardian is basically a completely different ship that has nothing to do with the campaign boss.

Every boss, Guardian included, has a fight scenario with the support of a fleet. Everything else is a common problem.

"From the player perspective it has very limited alpha strike. Automatically derating the ship into a support platform."
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Sutopia

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #102 on: July 23, 2021, 11:28:20 AM »

Compared to Paragon and Radiant.

It is the problem of the weaker ship that it can't allow itself to get shot. Stronger ship doesn't care. It is being stronger for this particular reason.

Have you never read the blog post about two tech levels?

(Regarding your excuses for not testing)
You can hide but you cannot run. Even with skill changes the majority of the skills are unchanged and it’s fairly easy to set such fight up. It’s even easier of you’re willing to test it without skills as there won’t be changes to hull specifications aside from deployment points of radiant. If you still can’t do that I will have no choice but to parse that as your inability to prove your arguments.

I did read it.

Radiant officially will become player controllable. AI on AI action will turn into a substitute for a real thing.
Can you solo an ordo with two radiants with your own radiant?

Ai vs AI is the only objective metric when it comes to balancing. Player action is too much of uncertainty that a doom in player hands can solo an entire ordo, but does that stop radiant from being raised to 60 dp.

Edit: I still disagree with your alpha strike fantasy. In a capital 1 v 1 it’s impractical to end the fight within 10 seconds let alone one volley. How long does it take your proud aurora to beat the standard variant radiant?
« Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 11:31:50 AM by Sutopia »
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Amoebka

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #103 on: July 23, 2021, 12:19:37 PM »

How is being able to solo an Ordo a "support platform"? Oh, sure, this ship can beat entire endgame fleets by itself, but it has to KITE to do so, and that means it's actually weak. How does that make any sense.
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Lucky33

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Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #104 on: July 23, 2021, 11:24:13 PM »

Compared to Paragon and Radiant.

It is the problem of the weaker ship that it can't allow itself to get shot. Stronger ship doesn't care. It is being stronger for this particular reason.

Have you never read the blog post about two tech levels?

(Regarding your excuses for not testing)
You can hide but you cannot run. Even with skill changes the majority of the skills are unchanged and it’s fairly easy to set such fight up. It’s even easier of you’re willing to test it without skills as there won’t be changes to hull specifications aside from deployment points of radiant. If you still can’t do that I will have no choice but to parse that as your inability to prove your arguments.

I did read it.

Radiant officially will become player controllable. AI on AI action will turn into a substitute for a real thing.
Can you solo an ordo with two radiants with your own radiant?

Ai vs AI is the only objective metric when it comes to balancing. Player action is too much of uncertainty that a doom in player hands can solo an entire ordo, but does that stop radiant from being raised to 60 dp.

Edit: I still disagree with your alpha strike fantasy. In a capital 1 v 1 it’s impractical to end the fight within 10 seconds let alone one volley. How long does it take your proud aurora to beat the standard variant radiant?

I can't have Radiant as of right now. Player control is not implemented yet.

Starsector is a single player game. Player centered. Not AI. I suspect that a mess what happened in the current release is at least partially is a result of paying too much attention to AIvsAI scenarios.

I don't see how blowing target up in 10 seconds is impractical. It is very practical since destroyed target will not shoot back or in any other form demand attention from you or your allies.
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