Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.95a is out! (03/26/21); Blog post: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts (09/24/21)

Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 8

Author Topic: Make Guardian recoverable  (Read 3086 times)

Amoebka

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 463
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #60 on: July 21, 2021, 08:28:49 AM »

Range + mobility is exactly the combination that shouldn't exist, especially not on a ship with 5 large weapons.  :)

Do we really want another blatantly overpowered godship available to the player? Soloing everything with your flagship takes away from the fleet building aspect of the game.
Logged

Yunru

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 955
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #61 on: July 21, 2021, 08:40:26 AM »

Completely kills attractiveness of Guardian as player ship. I can live without unlimited missiles, it's combination of range + mobility that makes me interested.
I don't understand that. Range + Mobility is available on many a ship (every weapon type has a Cruiser with a large mount for it, even). Unlimited missiles however, is unique to the Guardian alone (well, and stations).

Lucky33

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 848
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #62 on: July 21, 2021, 08:48:58 AM »

In the upcoming version there will be so much missiles that they will blot out the stars.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 08:51:18 AM by Lucky33 »
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 9585
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #63 on: July 21, 2021, 09:29:05 AM »

For me, Guardian is the alternative to Radiant, unless Alex and David add more automated capital ships (or smaller ships that are more overpowered than what we have).

Being overpowered to some extent is fine as the price to pay for taking both top Tech instead of more personal skills that uplift other flagships further.

If I get both top tech skills next release, I am probably locking myself into Radiant flagship until re-spec.  The reason for (me) suggesting making Guardian playable (with or without unlimited missiles) is to expand pinnacle AI flagship options from one (Radiant) to two (Radiant and Guardian).
« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 09:33:05 AM by Megas »
Logged

Lucky33

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 848
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #64 on: July 21, 2021, 09:34:15 AM »

But what these options are supposed to be? Kiting?
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 9585
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #65 on: July 21, 2021, 09:35:45 AM »

But what these options are supposed to be? Kiting?
Somewhat overpowered or unfair monsters that kill things.  Imagine SNK boss made playable, and somewhat overpowered even after getting nerfed, like Akuma as a hidden character in few old Capcom fighting games (SSF2 Turbo and X-Men).

And continuing from my last post, not just as a playable flagship with Auto Ships and Neural Link, but under AI control too with merely Auto Ships.  Even Radiant in the current release as a 40 DP AI ship on your side is a monster (good when giving up 3rd s-mod for not going for Tech 10).  Unless Alex adds behavior options for AI, they will not kite until they start losing the flux war.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 09:41:21 AM by Megas »
Logged

SCC

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3112
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #66 on: July 21, 2021, 09:42:25 AM »

I don't understand that. Range + Mobility is available on many a ship (every weapon type has a Cruiser with a large mount for it, even). Unlimited missiles however, is unique to the Guardian alone (well, and stations).
That much range and that much mobility is unique to Guardian, however. Regenerating missiles let it have great offensive power, but it's something other ships can have, while soloing an entire Ordo is a pretty exclusive club. Guardian would be a replacement for Conquest, which cannot keep up with newfound aggressiveness of Remnants in 0.95, whereas Guardian can.

Lucky33

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 848
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #67 on: July 21, 2021, 10:02:44 AM »

But what these options are supposed to be? Kiting?
Somewhat overpowered or unfair monsters that kill things.  Imagine SNK boss made playable, and somewhat overpowered even after getting nerfed, like Akuma as a hidden character in few old Capcom fighting games (SSF2 Turbo and X-Men).

And continuing from my last post, not just as a playable flagship with Auto Ships and Neural Link, but under AI control too with merely Auto Ships.  Even Radiant in the current release as a 40 DP AI ship on your side is a monster (good when giving up 3rd s-mod for not going for Tech 10).  Unless Alex adds behavior options for AI, they will not kite until they start losing the flux war.

I'd like to imagine but I've never played Capcom fighting games.
Logged

Yunru

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 955
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #68 on: July 21, 2021, 11:41:37 AM »

That much range and that much mobility is unique to Guardian, however.
Nope! As mentioned, every large mount has a Cruiser, thus both range and mobility (pre-hull mods).

The Guardian has range, mobility and firepower, the latter of which should not be ignored (and yet is).

SCC

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3112
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #69 on: July 21, 2021, 11:43:29 AM »

Yunru

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 955
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #70 on: July 21, 2021, 11:49:00 AM »

(pre-hull mods).
Case dismissed.
Ah yes, because dismissing things out of hand is real good for discussion.

I omit the presence of hullmods because, as you presumably know, they scale opposite ways for the two factors you claimed relevant. The higher the Hull size, the less the mobility Hull mods do, but the higher the range hullmods benefit.

So no, not dismissed.

SCC

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3112
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #71 on: July 21, 2021, 11:50:19 AM »

How do I put Advanced Targeting Core on any ship I like, then?

Yunru

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 955
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #72 on: July 21, 2021, 12:00:41 PM »

How do I put Advanced Targeting Core on any ship I like, then?
That... Is a more fair point. You'd have to use an ITU, which is less effective. But then, that's a trade-off for having more mobility.

intrinsic_parity

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2378
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #73 on: July 21, 2021, 12:20:18 PM »

Gaurdian has plasma jets... Particularly with systems expertise to increase uptime, there aren't that many ships that have more mobility, and certainly none with base capital range.

The combo of ATC and plasma jets is very unique and powerful.
Logged

SCC

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3112
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #74 on: July 21, 2021, 12:28:25 PM »

Advanced Targeting Core, ballistics and Plasma Jets all contribute to making Guardian the best conventional soloing ship in the game. Capitals, as well as low-tech and midline cruisers are too slow to escape the mob, while destroyers, frigates and high-tech ships are too short ranged to attack without putting themselves in mortal risk. Only Guardian gets the winning combination, and talking about Guardian's strengths without mentioning this combo is incomplete.

Soloing is like an equation where defences, offensive power, mobility and range all play part, but mobility contributes more, the more range you have, and vice versa. You could substitute all other qualities with just having a ton of one, of course, but no ship in vanilla (and probably modiverse as well) has enough defence to outlast everything, enough offence one-shot-kill anything or enough range to never be attacked, but there are ships mobile enough to solo pretty well (in fact, it's pretty much the god stat) thanks to skills, like Doom, and Guardian has a balance of these factors to get a score high enough, to outgun what it can't outrun and outrun what it can't outgun, to be able to solo an ordo, which is pretty good, and it makes it the best conventional ship in the game for this purpose. It's "just" the best kiting ship in the game (honestly soloing is just kiting with no back up, don't try it), something that can match Doom or Ziggurat in some aspects (some, as I don't expect Guardian to fare well against doritos - targets are too small and too erratic moving, and I want to avoid missiles for these tests so Alex doesn't go "hmm yes, guardian but no infinite missles for the player" and my tests get outdated).

Guardian also gets unlimited missiles, which gives it a lot of offensive power, but other ships can imitate it and it doesn't let it do anything unique. I wonder if Guardian can actually solo a star fortress - it's something I assumed, but never checked...
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 8