Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.95a is out! (03/26/21); Blog post: Skill Changes, Part 2 (07/15/21)

Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8]

Author Topic: Make Guardian recoverable  (Read 2753 times)

Morrokain

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1950
  • Megalith Dreadnought - Archean Order
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #105 on: July 23, 2021, 11:37:41 PM »

Starsector is a single player game. Player centered. Not AI. I suspect that a mess what happened in the current release is at least partially is a result of paying too much attention to AIvsAI scenarios.

I would disagree here. AI vs AI is important from a balance perspective. While it's true that the player is going to have the most impact and probably should have the most impact, to say that you shouldn't pay attention to AI ships because it is a single player game is a recipe for disaster.

98% of the ships on the field are AI ships. There is certainly a point where "the player does everything" turns from fun into tedium imo. The player should be the driving force, but AI allies should have a definitive use and for that to happen there has to be balance considerations around AI vs AI.

As far as the OP, I can't really say I have much of an opinion other than I don't think all ships need to be player pilotable - though that doesn't mean I think the Guardian should necessarily be excluded for that reason alone. I'm pretty indifferent really.
Logged

Lucky33

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 848
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #106 on: July 23, 2021, 11:41:22 PM »

How is being able to solo an Ordo a "support platform"? Oh, sure, this ship can beat entire endgame fleets by itself, but it has to KITE to do so, and that means it's actually weak. How does that make any sense.

Not "being able" but "supposedly being able". I mean nobody even cared to actually do it.

Strong = capable of destroying any opponent in a direct engagement.
Weak = incapable of doing so.
Logged

TaLaR

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2551
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #107 on: July 23, 2021, 11:54:09 PM »

Compared to Paragon and Radiant.

Paragon gets beaten one-sidedly until it's dead. Only HVD/TLs/HILs can match range with Guardian and these don't do enough damage. How exactly is this supposed to be an impressive performance? It's only advantage is being able to stall longer once already in a losing situation. I'd rather not be losing in the 1st place.

Pretty much same with Radiant, though at least it can try to bite back if you are inaccurate at range management. While Radiant is decently fast, Guardian is still both faster and has a lot more range.
A group of 3-4 Radiants could theoretically swap once fluxed and eventually corner a Guardian, but AI doesn't do advanced tactics like that other than by accident.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2021, 11:55:43 PM by TaLaR »
Logged

Lucky33

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 848
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #108 on: July 23, 2021, 11:54:26 PM »

Starsector is a single player game. Player centered. Not AI. I suspect that a mess what happened in the current release is at least partially is a result of paying too much attention to AIvsAI scenarios.

I would disagree here. AI vs AI is important from a balance perspective. While it's true that the player is going to have the most impact and probably should have the most impact, to say that you shouldn't pay attention to AI ships because it is a single player game is a recipe for disaster.

98% of the ships on the field are AI ships. There is certainly a point where "the player does everything" turns from fun into tedium imo. The player should be the driving force, but AI allies should have a definitive use and for that to happen there has to be balance considerations around AI vs AI.

As far as the OP, I can't really say I have much of an opinion other than I don't think all ships need to be player pilotable - though that doesn't mean I think the Guardian should necessarily be excluded for that reason alone. I'm pretty indifferent really.

Attempts to balance the game from the AI perspective will end up in minimizing player's capability to affect the fight. Because it will ruin the perfect balance.

AI allies should be optimized as a support to the player in the Player vs AI battle. Not the other way around.
Logged

Lucky33

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 848
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #109 on: July 23, 2021, 11:56:12 PM »

Compared to Paragon and Radiant.

Paragon gets beaten one-sidedly until it's dead. Only HVD/TLs/HILs can match range with Guardian and these don't do enough damage. How exactly is this supposed to be an impressive performance?

Pretty much same with Radiant, though at least it can try to bite back if you are inaccurate at range management. While Radiant is decently fast, Guardian is still both faster and has a lot more range.
A group of 3-4 Radiants could theoretically swap once fluxed and eventually corner a Guardian, but AI doesn't do advanced tactics like that other than by accident.

The question was about the flux stats.
Logged

TaLaR

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2551
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #110 on: July 23, 2021, 11:57:40 PM »

The question was about the flux stats.

But raw flux stats aren't the only thing that decides combat outcome. Plus, free missiles equate to a lot flux equivalent.
Logged

Lucky33

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 848
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #111 on: July 24, 2021, 01:19:03 AM »

The question was about the flux stats.

But raw flux stats aren't the only thing that decides combat outcome. Plus, free missiles equate to a lot flux equivalent.

It doesn't decide. So you can accept that it is mediocre and move on to presenting supposedly stronger sides of the Guardian.
Logged

Morrokain

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1950
  • Megalith Dreadnought - Archean Order
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #112 on: July 24, 2021, 01:53:27 AM »

Attempts to balance the game from the AI perspective will end up in minimizing player's capability to affect the fight. Because it will ruin the perfect balance.

AI allies should be optimized as a support to the player in the Player vs AI battle. Not the other way around.

This is a bit of a generalization though I do agree. You aren't giving specific instances where this applies though. In fact, I'd say the opposite is currently true. Much relies upon the player intervening rather than relying upon the AI to pull the weight of the battle. If the AI was perfect then yeah that would be a problem because the player would obviously never keep up and end up feeling irrelevant. I'd hardly say this is the case though.

My point is that you are saying that the AI shouldn't be taken into consideration as a balance factor - to which I heartily disagree. Anyway, to each their own. I think I've made my point clear enough as it is.
Logged

Lucky33

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 848
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #113 on: July 24, 2021, 02:45:00 AM »

Attempts to balance the game from the AI perspective will end up in minimizing player's capability to affect the fight. Because it will ruin the perfect balance.

AI allies should be optimized as a support to the player in the Player vs AI battle. Not the other way around.

This is a bit of a generalization though I do agree. You aren't giving specific instances where this applies though. In fact, I'd say the opposite is currently true. Much relies upon the player intervening rather than relying upon the AI to pull the weight of the battle. If the AI was perfect then yeah that would be a problem because the player would obviously never keep up and end up feeling irrelevant. I'd hardly say this is the case though.

My point is that you are saying that the AI shouldn't be taken into consideration as a balance factor - to which I heartily disagree. Anyway, to each their own. I think I've made my point clear enough as it is.

One of the most typical complains from the new players is the difference between fleet AIs. Friendlies are dumb and the enemy is cunning and effective. It tells us two things. First. AI role is defining. Second. It doesn't help the player. You have to get accustomed to it and learn how it works so it will become competitive enough. Typically it reduces the player's role from the fleet's commander to a captain of a single ship. Subordinate.

AI shouldn't be taken into account solely for the reason of the need to make it fit the role of the player's assistant and ally. Not the boss. Player's capabilities are the subject to balance changes. AI simply follows the suit.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2021, 02:47:16 AM by Lucky33 »
Logged

Amoebka

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 450
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #114 on: July 24, 2021, 06:38:43 AM »

AI allies should be optimized as a support to the player in the Player vs AI battle.
AI allies and AI enemies use the exact same AI. You can't optimize them for support because the enemy side has no player flagship to support.
You also seem to be pushing your own vision of the game very hard. Maybe you want it to be player vs the world, but that's not how the game is intended to be played currently and a lot (if not most) of the current players like the game the way it is (otherwise they wouldn't be playing).
Logged

Sutopia

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 901
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #115 on: July 24, 2021, 07:30:20 AM »

I can't have Radiant as of right now. Player control is not implemented yet.

Make some effort to actually read it.
Make some effort to actually try it in game.

I did.

Liar

Lucky33

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 848
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #116 on: July 24, 2021, 07:51:07 AM »

AI allies should be optimized as a support to the player in the Player vs AI battle.
AI allies and AI enemies use the exact same AI. You can't optimize them for support because the enemy side has no player flagship to support.
You also seem to be pushing your own vision of the game very hard. Maybe you want it to be player vs the world, but that's not how the game is intended to be played currently and a lot (if not most) of the current players like the game the way it is (otherwise they wouldn't be playing).

You very much can and, more importantly, it is. With current default battlesize AI fleet is built around single capital while others (if any) are added in the course of battle. The only problem that it takes AI commander to keep things running smooth and tidy. But a new player have absolutely no idea how to do that. And even the seasoned one just as myself is more like accepting the AI rules. There was large discussion recently about that.

https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=21861.0

Mind my position in all that.

And the last one. If it was for my vision the game would be indistinguishable from the navy's tactical simulator. And player vs player only.
Logged

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 19110
    • View Profile
Re: Make Guardian recoverable
« Reply #117 on: July 24, 2021, 08:38:11 AM »

Liar

This is an official warning. The next warning will be accompanied by at least a temp-ban, depending on the circumstances. Frankly, I'm surprised and disappointed things went down this path after several requests for them not to, in this thread.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8]