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Author Topic: Skill Changes, Part 2  (Read 18142 times)

Draba

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Re: Skill Changes, Part 2
« Reply #105 on: July 17, 2021, 06:55:39 PM »

#3, I'm not sure how friendly AI could mess with it. Their fire can only help, it can't harm anything as far as you trying to manage this. Maybe I'm missing something?
Nope, just a brainfart on my side.
I meant allies can mess your timing up by unreliably triggering the CD, properly thinking about it that's not a problem.

(Aaaah, gotcha, that makes sense!)
Nvm got it right the first time, just getting late:
- ally shoots something that triggers damage control
- you plink away with a weapon strong enough to trigger damage control, then fire a reaper
- reaper impacts after right after damage control is back up without shots in between, loses lots of damage

Ally can technically get in your way, but yeah need to reach pretty far for an example.
In the end I don't have much against the effect, the few times it makes a huge save will certainly be remembered.
"Easier on the AI" was the main part, other 2 aren't that important.
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Alex

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Re: Skill Changes, Part 2
« Reply #106 on: July 17, 2021, 07:11:29 PM »

Aha, right! Yeah, that does make sense/could happen. Hmm. As you say, probably not often enough to be a major concern.
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Deshara

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Re: Skill Changes, Part 2
« Reply #107 on: July 17, 2021, 07:29:12 PM »

If only there was a big, reclusive capital ship with a game-changing ability tucked away somewhere in the sector.
And that we could recover.

Spoiler
what are we talking about?
[close]
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Quote from: Deshara
I cant be blamed for what I said 5 minutes ago. I was a different person back then

Megas

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Re: Skill Changes, Part 2
« Reply #108 on: July 17, 2021, 11:44:40 PM »

If only there was a big, reclusive capital ship with a game-changing ability tucked away somewhere in the sector.
And that we could recover.
We know of Ziggurat, but it is the only one.  Would be nice if there were one or two more such signature ships (very powerful and no hiding ID possible) so player can choose one among few instead of left with Ziggurat as the only choice.

Maybe a real super-sized and super-capital akin to the Star Destroyer, about three times bigger than a capital.  And since shields are a pain for such a large object, maybe give it a field like one of the new low-tech ships.
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pairedeciseaux

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Re: Skill Changes, Part 2
« Reply #109 on: July 18, 2021, 01:27:28 AM »

Right now in current version I feel like Ziggurat is the only phase ship whose deployment/recovery cost is appropriate, the cost of others is too low.

Looking at the phase ships behaviour changes being play-tested/planned for next version, I think reducing Ziggurat's deployment/recovery cost might be warranted to keep it desirable in a player fleet in next version.

For other phase ships, their existing (supposedly unchanged) deployment/recovery cost might actually become adequate for their new performance profile.
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Yunru

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Re: Skill Changes, Part 2
« Reply #110 on: July 18, 2021, 03:42:36 AM »

If only there was a big, reclusive capital ship with a game-changing ability tucked away somewhere in the sector.
And that we could recover.

Spoiler
what are we talking about?
[close]
Why the Guardian of course!
It fills the need perfectly, asides from not currently having a recoverable form.

Deshara

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Re: Skill Changes, Part 2
« Reply #111 on: July 18, 2021, 04:29:05 AM »

oh you said that it could be recovered lol
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SonnaBanana

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Re: Skill Changes, Part 2
« Reply #112 on: July 18, 2021, 04:58:50 AM »

So there's only three fighters-affecting skills (Point Defense, Carrier Group, Fighter Uplink) in total now?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2021, 05:02:26 AM by SonnaBanana »
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Garafetdin

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Re: Skill Changes, Part 2
« Reply #113 on: July 18, 2021, 05:19:47 AM »

Speaking of Guardian, can't anything be done to it to make it recoverable? From my experience, the only thing it had over Radiant was too high a number of ordnance points and the fact that I had to conciously not put small sabots in medium missile slots since those are a bit broken when they don't run out due to extremely high DPS. The first problem can easily be solved by reducing OP to slightly less than Radiant, the second can be solved by changing medium missile slot into medium synergy/composite/universal, so that missiles couldn't be downsized.
Wouldn't it be cool to have a choice between 2 different Automated capitals?
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Megas

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Re: Skill Changes, Part 2
« Reply #114 on: July 18, 2021, 06:26:09 AM »

Guardian cannot be recovered.  I posted a topic in Suggestions suggesting to make it recoverable.  The only thing about Guardian that might be too powerful (aside from current 40? DP cost) is the unlimited missiles.  Yes, Guardian can zip all over the place, but so can Ziggurat, and maybe Radiant.  During my test drives with Guardian, it seemed comparable to Radiant in power if it did not have unlimited missiles.  (With unlimited missiles, it approaches the unlimited Fast Missile Racks and Salamander cheese Venture had in one of the 0.6.5 releases.)  In case of its mobility, that can be done with 60 or 75 DP cost.

NPC Ziggurat has a unique hullmod that enables purple motes, which gets removed and downgraded to blue motes when player gets it.  Do the same for for Guardian and strip the autoforge hullmod after player recovers it if unlimited missiles are too much.

And since Guardian is limited, maybe give it the same aggravation drawback Ziggurat has.

That said, Guardian as a pseudo-flagship is good only for those with Automated Ships and Neural Link.  Ziggurat has none of those requirements.  Would be nice if there was another new signature ship that does not have a skill requirement.
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Dexy

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Re: Skill Changes, Part 2
« Reply #115 on: July 18, 2021, 10:55:29 AM »

These skill and balance changes sound good. Except for the Damage Control's elite effect which sounds bad. Heavy hitters like reaper torpedoes are exciting for those on the giving and those on the receiving end. It's better if they cannot be neutralized with a passive skill.

Quote
On the other hand, once colonies have a more active role in the gameā€¦

Exciting. I like colonies and think they should play a bigger role in the game.
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WeiTuLo

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Re: Skill Changes, Part 2
« Reply #116 on: July 18, 2021, 12:25:00 PM »

Speaking of Guardian, can't anything be done to it to make it recoverable? From my experience, the only thing it had over Radiant was too high a number of ordnance points and the fact that I had to conciously not put small sabots in medium missile slots since those are a bit broken when they don't run out due to extremely high DPS. The first problem can easily be solved by reducing OP to slightly less than Radiant, the second can be solved by changing medium missile slot into medium synergy/composite/universal, so that missiles couldn't be downsized.
Wouldn't it be cool to have a choice between 2 different Automated capitals?

I added them to the Remnants in the ships file, captured one, then removed it, and they kept showing up in Remnant fleets until I went into the save file and removed it from the Remnants' known blueprints.
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Alex

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Re: Skill Changes, Part 2
« Reply #117 on: July 18, 2021, 01:12:08 PM »

Looking at the phase ships behaviour changes being play-tested/planned for next version, I think reducing Ziggurat's deployment/recovery cost might be warranted to keep it desirable in a player fleet in next version.

For other phase ships, their existing (supposedly unchanged) deployment/recovery cost might actually become adequate for their new performance profile.

Hmm - I feel like the Ziggurat is probably the least affected by the changes, since it didn't rely on mobility as much anyway.

So there's only three fighters-affecting skills (Point Defense, Carrier Group, Fighter Uplink) in total now?

Right.

Speaking of Guardian, can't anything be done to it to make it recoverable? From my experience, the only thing it had over Radiant was too high a number of ordnance points and the fact that I had to conciously not put small sabots in medium missile slots since those are a bit broken when they don't run out due to extremely high DPS. The first problem can easily be solved by reducing OP to slightly less than Radiant, the second can be solved by changing medium missile slot into medium synergy/composite/universal, so that missiles couldn't be downsized.
Wouldn't it be cool to have a choice between 2 different Automated capitals?

That could be interesting, though I'd have to have another look at the Guardian. The missile-reload thing would have to go, for one. Another possibility is that the Guardian just needs to be stronger. Still, worth thinking about.

These skill and balance changes sound good. Except for the Damage Control's elite effect which sounds bad. Heavy hitters like reaper torpedoes are exciting for those on the giving and those on the receiving end. It's better if they cannot be neutralized with a passive skill.

I'll just say, I understand what you're saying! From the testing I've done, though, Reapers still felt pretty great. I'll keep an eye on this, though.
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Drazhya

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Re: Skill Changes, Part 2
« Reply #118 on: July 18, 2021, 02:51:30 PM »

Fluff-wise, I think there could be a Best of the Best-style player skill for colonies, where your skill is finding skilled governors, but when I'm on a year-long voyage as part of my mission to survey every planet in the sector... well, I do set up comm relays everywhere to keep track of bounties so... no, it should still be better to have governors for every colony. A pair of boots on the ground should be better than anything the player character can manage while on-the-move, especially if they're leaving comm relay coverage.

Also, kind of annoyed that the projectile speed skill is still attached to ballistics bonuses. I'll still take it for my plasma cannon apogees, because that bonus is the difference between them shooting down frigates and not, but taking "Ballistics Mastery" for a build that is anything but that, does not feel good. Don't suppose we're getting a projectile speed hullmod any time soon?
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Skill Changes, Part 2
« Reply #119 on: July 18, 2021, 02:59:03 PM »

These skill and balance changes sound good. Except for the Damage Control's elite effect which sounds bad. Heavy hitters like reaper torpedoes are exciting for those on the giving and those on the receiving end. It's better if they cannot be neutralized with a passive skill.

I'll just say, I understand what you're saying! From the testing I've done, though, Reapers still felt pretty great. I'll keep an eye on this, though.

Personally, I've always seen Reaper as armor crackers primarily.  Which the Damage Control skill doesn't change at all.  A fully skilled Onslaught XIV with heavy armor and armored mounts is still going to have 0 armor in a spot hit by a reaper with Elite Damage Control or without.  So the primary use, to open a hole that your other weapons can exploit is still there.  Sure, you can use them to wipe out hull, but that's always struck me as inefficient compared to using other weapons, especially when factoring misses in.

To be honest, I'd be worried that the skill is too narrow, not that it is too strong against reapers.  It really only comes into play under some very narrow circumstances, which the player doesn't control - namely what weapons the enemy is equipped with.  And even then might affect only a single attack depending on how much incoming alpha there is (overkill harpoon swarms come to mind).  And I'd argue for the majority of fleets and majority of ships (although not all), sabots are scarier than reapers.  You need to win the flux war before you need to concern yourself with how fast you're dealing hull damage.  At the point you're taking hull damage, all other defenses have failed. Range, speed, shields, armor.

For example, I don't think I'd ever consider making it elite on an officer, for example, even if I did take damage control for the officer.  Especially with a 2 second cooldown.  Whatever the field modulation elite effect for shields is likely to prevent more meaningful damage and potentially change the fate of the ship.  Or the elite Combat Endurance if you really are relying on hull tanking - that works against small weapons better which tend to be more common.  If an enemy officer has this as elite as opposed to something else more useful, I'll probably just be glad and most likely won't notice a difference than if they didn't have any elite skill in terms of outcome. 

At best it's going to be a minor perk for Brilliants and Radiant's with AI cores installed.  And you're already better of going kinetic DPS instead of large single shot HE heavy against those ships anyways, and Reapers will open up 1500 armor on a Radiant for kinetics to do hull damage just fine if necessary.

Of course, I'd like to get to play with it first, just to see how much of a difference it really does make, but for a lot of my fleet configurations, just based on their weapon loadouts, it is not going to be noticeable.

Also, kind of annoyed that the projectile speed skill is still attached to ballistics bonuses. I'll still take it for my plasma cannon apogees, because that bonus is the difference between them shooting down frigates and not, but taking "Ballistics Mastery" for a build that is anything but that, does not feel good. Don't suppose we're getting a projectile speed hullmod any time soon?

Actually, according to the description it is +50% ballistic projectile speed.   I don't think taking the skill does anything for plasma cannon projectiles.  So, as far as I can tell, nothing speeds up energy projectiles anymore.
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