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Author Topic: New player feedback  (Read 1809 times)

Ericus

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New player feedback
« on: July 14, 2021, 07:43:55 PM »

Hello,

So I got the game only a couple weeks ago and played it extensively though not reaching endgame.
Might be a bit early for feedback as it is but ...

First I want to say I thoroughly enjoy the game. My first computer was a Mac and of course Escape Velocity was on the menu. Also a fan of science fiction literature.
I might seem to focus on what I think is missing / perfectible in the current game, but this is already a gem of a game to me.

I also only played 0.95a so have no history with what was before.
I say this aloud : this is just all opinions.


- Progression : things are too easy.
I am not writing that in terms of battles but in terms of accessibility of the ships and their prices.
  • Bigger and more advanced ships should be exponentially more expensive to really put them out of reach of the player beginning the game. Cruiser at the million or three credits value (and not just 2-4 times the price of a frigate). Capitals at 6-10 milions etc.
    It feels weird to accomplish a couple of basic missions and being able to acquire a cruiser size ship already. And considering how easy it is to make money trading / smuggling (should be harder really), this would give more meaning and impact to the progression of the player. Though I get it would just mean more busy work for a while, as it is, it felt too easy.
  • Ship accessibility should be more restrictive. By that I mean the availability of military ships to the global market, and even more so for advanced top of the line ships. Military ships of advanced design should only rarely be available on the black market (at an exorbitant price) while open market should not have them (or being locked behind opening a license for them based on reputation + credits in the millions range maybe).
    I used the mod that informs where ship / items / officers are available on the market which would work well with a scarcer economy if you had a cost associated with it.

- Officers : the system is great but could be better.
  • I wish you could manage more of them once you reach a certain point, having a colony and starbase could mean being able to double your recruitment capacity and have them be useful to you defending the colony. This would allow more flexibility for switching fleets for the player. The number you are able to field at a given time in your fleet would stay the same.
    They level pretty fast, with this system they could level slower too.
  • Officer personality : well I tried with steady officers and they were useless. So I only recruited aggressive ones from there.

- Interface : perfectible for some stuff.
  • Some information is missing (cooldown for ship abilities, range etc.). Also I wish I could see the modified values for weapon ranges etc once you apply mods.
  • I found out about the alt key move by random chance, this should be enabled by default in the settings json.
  • I keep on not finding where to fire an administrator !
  • The map system (tab + q to get on global map) and the task (intel) system is confusing / cumbersome to use. Clicking on a star system in the task (intel) map should switch to the solar system map at least. This gets very annoying over time.
  • I still get confused on when to use left / right click to navigate depending if I am on the map or not. Not sure if it's just me being confused or the lack of consistency for what each buttons do on different screens.

- Skills : well the current system is not satisfying but there has been a blog post about it already.
  • Being able to switch between 2 sets of skills locked behind some Neural Matrix Personality Storage you could find exploring would be great for when you get a colony and want to go from your Doom to your non phased ship.

- Exploration : Could use some more variety in events and loot (rarer weapons with lowered requirements / some eventual drawbacks). But that is "just" content.


Thank you for the game and can't wait to see what comes next with the new skills and all !
« Last Edit: July 16, 2021, 07:52:31 PM by Ericus »
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Alex

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Re: New player feedback
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2021, 08:00:22 PM »

Hi - thank you for your feedback! Will definitely think about this stuff/take it on board. Progression in particular is tricky, but I do see where you're coming from there. IIRC larger ships already got a round of "becoming more expensive" a while back, so you can imagine what it used to be :)

Firing admins: Command tab, Colonies subtab, Manage administrators button. D - 1 - W shortcuts.

For the alt key, the only snag there is it sometimes triggers when you're alt-tabbing and that's a pain. It has a certain minimum distance you have to move it for it to kick in, but even with that, I've made a few accidental sales. Otherwise, I'd love to have it on by default!

And, totally hear you re: more stuff for exploration. "Just" content indeed, but I'd love to find some time for more of it.

  • I still get confused on when to use left / right click to navigate depending if I am on the map or not. Not sure if it's just me being confused or the lack of consistency for what each buttons do on different screens.

(It's left-click to interact/move, and right-click to move the view around. It's just that right-click also happens to be a shortcut for laying in a course on the campaign map, which... well, that does make it more confusing, but it's also pretty convenient.)
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Ericus

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Re: New player feedback
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2021, 08:52:43 PM »

Is there a structure for exploration content ?
As, what is possible to do in terms of writing and conditions ?
Dialog trees, requirements in terms of resources but also stuff like sensor strength / salvage level and % chance based result ? Chance to attract a fleet when back on the map screen etc ?

Do we need java programming skill to try and do some in a mod ?

Also, it sure looks like I get easily confused with age.
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SCC

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Re: New player feedback
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2021, 03:40:36 AM »

Starpocalypse reduces ship availability, by forcing all warships and weapons out of open and black markets (unless you destabilise the colony, then some might get through), so if you don't get a commission with one of the factions, you will have quite a reduced selection for your ships and weapons.

Marco

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Re: New player feedback
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2021, 08:08:47 AM »

For the alt key, the only snag there is it sometimes triggers when you're alt-tabbing and that's a pain. It has a certain minimum distance you have to move it for it to kick in, but even with that, I've made a few accidental sales. Otherwise, I'd love to have it on by default!

At least make it a setting the options menu.
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Alex

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Re: New player feedback
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2021, 08:34:01 AM »

Is there a structure for exploration content ?
As, what is possible to do in terms of writing and conditions ?
Dialog trees, requirements in terms of resources but also stuff like sensor strength / salvage level and % chance based result ? Chance to attract a fleet when back on the map screen etc ?

Do we need java programming skill to try and do some in a mod ?

Well - in brief, yes but also yes :)


At least make it a setting the options menu.

Ah, I'm loathe to put things that have issues into the in-game settings screen. Stuff being there implies that I think it works well one way or another, where I don't think something you change in the config file comes with the same implications, and it's more "ok" if it's kinda busted at times.
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SafariJohn

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Re: New player feedback
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2021, 09:18:14 AM »

  • I still get confused on when to use left / right click to navigate depending if I am on the map or not. Not sure if it's just me being confused or the lack of consistency for what each buttons do on different screens.

On the combat map, it is left click select, right click action.

On the main campaign screen, it is left click action, right click switch camera mode.

On the campaign map, it is left click view details, right click action.

So yeah, it is all over the place.
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sector_terror

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Re: New player feedback
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2021, 03:08:10 PM »

Man, bveen a while since I've felt engaged enough by a post to do a point by point. Here we go.

Progression: Point 1 I -heavily- disagree here. I find it already takes some time to get into the big boy ships, and taking in games years to move toward cruisers, let alone capitals, would be insane. Don't forget, ships getting lost in combat is normal, and if every single loss in combat of anything past frigate level was the price tag of a million or two, it would make basically any loss as cruiser or capital ship an instant reset. It's already an instant reset for basically every job. And let's not forget the increase in pay for bounties that would have to happen, and the proportional increase in trade contracts to keep things even. It just further make trade missions overpowered -and- put a game already at very minimal capacity for loss to even higher extremes. The whole game is balanced around the price of ships given how combat centric it is, to multiple these prices by a scale of 10 would be an insane destabilization.

Progression: Point 2 Commissions already locks a lot behind it for all practical purposes. The difference between getting an Aurora, a Medusa, and even something as simple as an Atlas with commission, is a night and say difference compared to without. And Commission itself isn't something that should be forced upon the player, especially with the long term consequences it can have on relations. Even getting military from contacts is hard RNG and too rare to be depended on. I have in some cases spent in games -months- looking for the proper set of weapons to equip to a capital, and see maybe one or two capitals in the open market in in game years. On the occasion I get cruisers, there's maybe one or two, with commissions holding 3 copies of the same cruisers. I'm estimating time if it isn't obvious but you get the point. commission is already a rewarding option and contacts take a long time to give building contracts, making commissions effectively required for fleet advancement would just be forcing a system that should be an option.

Progression: overall If I want a long con game of glacial development, I'll play Stellaris or replay Trails in the sky, Tales of Symphonia, or Pathfinder:kingmarker. I don't want Starsector to turn into a game where I spend weeks in real time to get to the end-game. I dont want it to take 5 minutes, but if it took 3 days of playing everyday 2 hours a day to get even a chance at a capital, I'd never play. Forgive me if I'm not skilled enough at this game to give you an exact time scale, but I think extending the progression any further would just push into the wrong direction. I admit some bias, as I'm a man who like replaying things. When I played guild Wars 2 I delete old toons and made new toons all the time to replay that progression, so I absolutely favor quicker build to slower development, but I dont think my perception is just bias.

Officers, point 1 I can't entirely disagree with the point made. Officers do seem to level in the scale the player does which -does- make officers grow very quickly. It does mean recycling new officers to adjust for fleet composition pre-colony stage is easier, or if you just dont want colonies(I haven't read skill changed part 2 yet so don't know the effects there). As for numbers, it only really matters heavily in late-game super bounties, since the RC(14, I think) update made those fleets with more than maybe 3-4 officers over the player maximum limited to level 9 and 10 bounties(I might be misremembering numbers slightly, but you get the idea). Even then colonies are already very powerful, I dont think making them even stronger is the wisest idea.

Officers, point 2 I'm amazed you enjoy aggressive officers. I find them almost reckless and stick strictly to steady officers. Maybe I need to branch out but.....I'm not sure. Then again I would -not- want an aggressive officer on a Sunder or any low tech burn drive ships(the upcoming update might change the latter but that's another subject). I guess the AI is more diverse than I thought.

Interface, part 1 Can I ask for an example? I'm drawing a blank on what information you're talking about. There is a bar specifically to see the length of time for the ship systems. Range I'll give you but that only applies to a slim few abilities like the Omen/Shade and the Doom's mines. It's a bit specific to alter the UI for.  The weapon range one would be nice, though the way they get altered via things like skills might make that difficult, though perhaps I'm speaking out place there.

Alt Key movement Okay this one I dont know what you're talking about. Is there -another- system I just didn't know about until now? The last one was just me never thinking to do something(admittedly something stupid but w/e), this sounds like internal files. Not that I can do anything, Alt being a button would indeed risk a few things on Windows.

Firing Admins Yeah, that one isn't clear. You go to the "command" screen(default D, check the bottom left buttons, it's there do) and see "Manage administrators"(default w) from that first tab. It is a bit unclear, though I really don't know any other place to put it so I can only complain so much.

Map controls Wait what? but clicking on a star does quickly give you access to the start map. Holding left click opens a drop menu that includes "show star map" as option 1. I routinely hit that button accidentally. I'm a little baffled you have trouble with that. The button to go back is a visible button at the top left of the map as well. Maybe it's a bit small and easy to miss, but thats being charitable. Maybe put them on the bottom right so -all- map controls at below and easier to find? Honestly sounds like it isn't a bad idea.

Extra skill shortcuts Interesting idea. Consider developing this further for the suggestions section of the forums, and I hope moders see this suggestions I think it's interesting. I know a lot of modern games have saved skill builds, it be nice to have.

Well that's my thoughts on the matter. I hope you enjoy the game man, it's absolutely worth it and the faster progression does mean the replay value for new styles of contact development and fleet composition style every game just expands. It's not an easy game to learn, especially the combat, but it's rewarding once you "get" it, and nowhere near something like Crusader Kings 2 or anything.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: New player feedback
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2021, 04:03:09 PM »

It's important to keep in mind that there are a lot of different ways to play the game that scale at very different paces. I know in my last game, I had a full cruiser fleet in less than 2 hours and was eyeing capital ships. That felt too quick to me. I remember I killed one trade fleet in the first hour carrying supplies and heavy armaments and made like 800k selling to shortages which catapulted me into mid game almost immediately. Ships are definitely pretty cheap compared to income sources. I honestly agree that ship prices should be higher and ship access should be much more restrictive, although maybe not to the degree described in the OP.
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Thaago

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Re: New player feedback
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2021, 04:56:07 PM »

Right, I've had games where I stick around the light destroyer stage for a while, and others where I get to cruisers immediately. In my latest I got an Aurora about 10 minutes out of the tutorial from a bar event... needed to sell half my fleet to afford it, but after that things got fun. (Also mining blasters on it because no other weapons for sale: worked ok!)
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Ericus

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Re: New player feedback
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2021, 09:31:58 PM »

To quickly answer one question asked, here is what I mean on the UI.
The details don't concern the combat UI really (though some easier info could be given there by color coding some elements maybe ? Now that you make me think about it).

Interface, part 1 Can I ask for an example? I'm drawing a blank on what information you're talking about.

In the ship refit interface :
- Characteristics for the abilities (range, cool down, flux cost etc.)
- All characteristics impacted by mods as some already appear in () already for some ship systems ; extended to weapons (sorry to the dev having to do that : that seems like a lot of ungrateful work to develop if has to be done manually for each item and not a template)

In fleet selection in stations :
- In the fleet selection window, the cost for each ship to bring in the fleet (only way I saw how to do that is add the ship, hover the fleet composition or like, doing maths, remove the ship if I just wanted the information).

In mission attribution by contacts :
- Where is the mission besides 20 light years away ? Either a map or a simple compass or just a 8 direction arrow in the text showing the direction would be immensely helpful.

In trade window :
- Item scarcity or abundance (green / red) should be apparent on each item with a dot or what not so the player does not have to hover each item individually to see what is interesting to trade.
- The detailed trading information (F1) should have an optional toggle function, I mean I always want to see that information when I am trading.

In Maps and Intel :
- Ideally, all these interfaces should be unified somehow, I mean it's working as it is, just, would be nice not to have to juggle between 3 keys constantly to access all the various map data presented in various screens, Just having star map and intel together AND local system map would simplify thing (well for the player, not the developer who would have to do that). Not that it should be a priority.
At least being able to zoom to the local map when clicking a star in the intel map would be great already.

I didn't put much thought into the fighting interface, it felt pretty good already and keeps things simple, I like the mod showing my flux level on the tip of the aiming reticle as I otherwise always forget about it.
Though :
- I wish it would be easier to find / select ships on the map view of the battlefield as they are sometimes mushed together even at the lowest zoom level.
- Maybe switching the color of the weapons without ammo or disabled in orange / red would be good to quickly see the missile availability, and yellow when some weapons are recharging like the antimatter blasters ? Haven't really found that info without having to switch to the concerned weapon to check availability so maybe I am just not used to it yet.

Just some quick details / examples about what I meant in my post.
I am not asking for any of it really, these are just the small things / grips that appeared to me when I used the game a lot over these last weeks.

ps: I play at 3440x1440 so that probably impacts my view on things.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2021, 07:10:48 AM by Ericus »
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Vanshilar

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Re: New player feedback
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2021, 01:32:01 AM »

- Progression : things are too easy.
I am not writing that in terms of battles but in terms of accessibility of the ships and their prices.

I think yes and no. Ships are basically just a platform for weapons, hullmods, etc. Getting the correct weapons is much harder than getting ships. Getting hullmods is probably the hardest. Until then, ships are basically just a very expensive platform that can't really do much. Plus, the bigger ships cost a lot more supplies/crew/fuel to use -- they're not stuff that you want to haul around regularly until you've established enough income to have them in your fleet. So much so that when people find an Astral or Legion (capital ships) in the early game, the best advice is usually "store it in an abandoned station somewhere" -- so that you don't have it keeping on sucking away at your resources, until you get the weapons/hullmods to properly gear it out.

Basically, getting the ships is the easy part. The hard part is figuring out what are the right weapons, getting the right weapons, getting the hullmods, etc.

Also, depending on how much of the sector you've explored, you may not have found the "difficult" stuff yet. The game does gradually ramp up in difficulty, especially once you start venturing away from the core worlds. So you may still be at the part of the game where it's letting you stay very "sheltered", again to make it more approachable.

Additionally, not everyone is going to have as much experience playing these types of games as you have. Currently the game isn't yet very well documented (from a newbie point of view), and a lot of the game mechanics like flux, armor, etc. take time to figure out. So the game has to be easy enough, at least at the beginning stages, so that the "floor" of difficulty stays low, to make it more approachable. This is also somewhat of a bonus for more experienced gamers -- if you know your way around, yes you can get a fleet up and running quickly, so that you can spend more time doing the more "fun" stuff instead of grinding through early content.
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Ericus

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Re: New player feedback
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2021, 04:37:44 AM »

It's my second game and I explored maybe 75% of the systems as of now.
I definitely did not go to the hardest stuff as I am still exploring but can already aim for the 200k bounties without issues with just that exploration fleet and 8 officers.

For whatever reason, I keep my exploring fleet under 120 and it goes like :
- 1 apogee
- 1 harbinger
- 2 afflictors
- 1 monitor
- 4 omens
- 1 supertanker
- 2 atlas
- 3 salvage rigs

Goes nicely to 119.
Anyway, not that it matters a lot to stay under 120, just more of a roleplay thing I guess.

To get back on the subject, I really did not have any issue finding weapons, of course it takes a bit of time to build up a stash but the black markets have everything you could wish for and more and once you begin fighting the bigger fleets and the fleets you can find in yellow systems and some fleets of the red ones, it's like a dragon's hoard.
I began by building a fleet of 10 P mules to smuggle stuff and trade until I had a couple millions already.

Having the free storage of the abandoned stations without any threat or rent or consequence is too gamey and too tempting not to use right now ! :)

Maybe it indeed depends on one's experience in gaming, and though I am not nowhere near a great magician of the mouse keyboard, I guess I am used to systems in place in games.

So, I would like for the game to be a bit more gritty for sure.
Maybe getting more starting options along with a tightly controlled weapon technology could satisfy both sides of the viewpoint on the subject.
Balance is a b... and some players obviously like the very easy access to ships as it is now.

To me, it kinda breaks my immersion and I didn't even bother playing with the more basic ships when I could right away get 4 tempest 4 omens and quickly a few afflictors.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2021, 07:09:36 AM by Ericus »
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SCC

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Re: New player feedback
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2021, 01:29:45 PM »

Starpocalypse is a mod that does a few things. It removes combat ships and all the weapons from open and black markets. You have to throw your lot with someone and take on a commission to get easy access to the good stuff, or rely on contacts and bar events to get random stuff. I quite like this system, since it puts a damper on how much stuff you can easily buy with no commitment to any faction (and no real cost to accessibility). It doesn't go all the way, since there are still independent colonies with military markets, but it's better than nothing.

I would consider SS to be a better game, if such restrictions were a part of the base game, but the keyword I'd say is the "I". To people who commission, it wouldn't be such a big change, but it would be to people who are used to trading, fighting and doing business for all factions as opportunities happen, since now they have a choice of get good or give up your freedom.
Hopefully once Alex gets around to implementing the overarching game goal and endgame, there will be more challenges to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Ericus

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Re: New player feedback
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2021, 04:30:16 PM »

Map controls Wait what? but clicking on a star does quickly give you access to the start map. Holding left click opens a drop menu that includes "show star map" as option 1. I routinely hit that button accidentally. I'm a little baffled you have trouble with that. The button to go back is a visible button at the top left of the map as well. Maybe it's a bit small and easy to miss, but thats being charitable. Maybe put them on the bottom right so -all- map controls at below and easier to find? Honestly sounds like it isn't a bad idea.

I was writing about the intel screen in the passage you refer to, not the sector map.
And how having 3 different keys and screens for the same type of data is not optimal to use, and how being able to click the star to access their local map in the intel screen would be good.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2021, 05:54:47 PM by Ericus »
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