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Author Topic: Xyphos - The sim queen  (Read 5937 times)

Sutopia

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Re: Xyphos - The sim queen
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2021, 11:24:33 AM »

Xyphos let you vent flux while stopping small threats like a bomber wing or a frigate. It is PD that can fire when venting flux.

That's very very useful.
If you only want PD wouldn’t wasp or talon work better?
Maybe even mining pod auxiliary as sheer meatshields - they’re actually quite decent in that regard.
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Xyphos - The sim queen
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2021, 12:17:50 PM »

Longbows from a converted hangar don't last all that long in AI hands. 

They are slow at speed 134 (200*0.67), so many frigates out run them and their attack runs take more time, and they take 50% more damage on those runs.  Since we are discussing converted hangar, they are one wing to a ship, they won't coordinate strikes.   So in AI hands, converted longbows are not infinite sabots.  Essentially, after the first minute of engagement, you will have far fewer longbow wings as they'll be taking 36 seconds or more to respawn a single fighter.  You'll probably get an unenchanced sabot pods worth out of them before CR starts ticking down on a Fury.  The AI is far too willing to send them off to attack ships, and in a large battle, that means bomber losses.  Xyphos have much higher up time, and are likely to still have a pair up at the end of fight.

There's a similar problem with wasps and talons, in that they get sent off and get blown up, ticking down fighter respawn rate.  They're arguably better initially, but for the long haul, Xyphos will tend to win the attrition war.

And I just gave you the fit: replace your HB with IP, replace your Xyphos with long bow and replace your sabot pod with harpoon pod (or reaper if you trust AI using it - I don’t).
IP is short range because you’re already fighting short range, so the “extra” range on xyphos is not needed. It’s not even a counter argument.

So I tried this in the AI battles mission. 10 Furies vs 10 Furies, no skills, simulated 2 s-mods.
1 Heavy Blaster, 2 Sabot Pods, Xyphos, Converted Hangar, Hardened Shields, Integrated Targeting Unit, and Shield Conversion-Front.  To simulate 2 s-mods (+33 OP), I threw on 19 capacitors and 21 vents.

Versus

1 Ion Pulsar, 2 Harpoon Pods, Longbow, Converted Hangar, Hardened Shields, Integrated Targeting Unit, Shield Conversion-Front, 19 capacitors and 21 vents - although this doesn't really have enough guns for it's flux capacity at all.

So I took some liberties with your suggestion and also did a run with 2 Ion Pulsars, 1 Harpoon Pod, Longbow, same mods, 39 capacitors and 0 vents (still only 490 sustained flux usage out of 600 dissipation).

In very limited testing (i.e. 1 match each), the Xyphos Furies won with only 1 Fury lost, and then against the second build, the Xyphos again won with 6 Furies lost.  The longbows came out strong, but after the initial wave, basically did nothing as they were too sporadic to do much - they consistently got shot down by the Xyphos, although they'd tend to release their payload on the way - but respawn times just kept going up.

And btw an officer can has both tech skills, idk why you would mention it.

I mean, with a very specific leadership skill and hiring and firing officers until you roll the double tech skill option, this is true.  However, if you're running a pure Fury fleet, that typically means grabbing +2 officers instead of +1 level.  And doubling down on leadership probably isn't as good as going down combat, leadership and tech for a Fury fleet + player flagship.  So for most players it is likely they won't have 10 Fury officers with both Gunnery Implants and Energy weapon mastery.

Anyways, for battle "carriers" with converted hangars and 1 fighter, I would tend to avoid bombers and go for a pure support fighter, like a Xyphos or a Mining Pod.  At least for end game grind fests.  If you're just going for an initial shock and awe and expect to win in the first minute, Longbows will likely serve you better.

Actually, the ships that probably benefit most from Xyphos are low tech front line ships, like Enforcers, Dominators, and Onslaughts.  They don't have access to cheap and efficient ion damage otherwise, but can benefit greatly from knocking the engines out on faster enemy ships while their shields are still up.  They've already got missiles covered (especially with s-mods and officer skills - 36 sabots on an Enforcer doesn't really need more from longbows).  They also tend to have excessive amounts of OP, so converted hangar is a reasonable addition.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2021, 12:22:53 PM by Hiruma Kai »
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Sutopia

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Re: Xyphos - The sim queen
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2021, 12:49:06 PM »

Have you tried one sabot pod, one harpoon pod and one ion pulser with long bow?

Edit: your setups are not fair at all, as the role distribution is not the same.
A HB represents finisher/A Xyphos represents emp source and a sabot pod represents a shield breaker.
In that regard, none of your proposed fit was giving the same role distribution.
I would expect two HB against two harpoon;
Two sabot fit against a long bow and a sabot.

I would admit it’s partially my fault not specifying the three medium slots but a generic “replace sabot pod(no s) with harpoon pod(no s).

Edit 2: in fact, let’s just host a “best fury fit contest” and I’d put my bet on a fury not even using converted hangar.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2021, 01:11:16 PM by Sutopia »
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Xyphos - The sim queen
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2021, 01:50:56 PM »

Have you tried one sabot pod, one harpoon pod and one ion pulser with long bow?

Edit: your setups are not fair at all, as the role distribution is not the same.
A HB represents finisher/A Xyphos represents emp source and a sabot pod represents a shield breaker.
In that regard, none of your proposed fit was giving the same role distribution.
I would expect two HB against two harpoon;
Two sabot fit against a long bow and a sabot.

I would admit it’s partially my fault not specifying the three medium slots but a generic “replace sabot pod(no s) with harpoon pod(no s).

Edit 2: in fact, let’s just host a “best fury fit contest” and I’d put my bet on a fury not even using converted hangar.

Quick run shows Xyphos still winning with only 2 losses (again very small sample size of 1 fight) versus 1 Harpoon pod, 1 Sabot Pod, 1 Ion Pulsar, Longbow, Converted Hangar, Hardened Shield, Integrated Targeting Unit, Shield Conversion - Front, 39 vents. 0 caps.

I admit it is hard to intuit what people are doing with incomplete loadout descriptions.  I'm for example assuming ITU and shield conversion, but people could arguably skip those.  Also, linked or unlinked Harpoons + Sabots?  These all can have fairly substantial impacts. 

Actually, I'd argue with sufficient flux dissipation, a heavy blaster is both a shield breaker and a finisher.  Also, the missiles are very limited in this example.  I could go 3 s-mod and throw on expanded missile racks, and put Missile specialization officers on all the ships to give them triple missile capacity, although I doubt it'll change things much.  This fight really favors more sabots given the shields tend not to go down unless ganged up on significantly.

However, at the end of the day we're discussing the Xyphos versus Longbow, and well, I again submit converted hangar Longbows do not act as sustained shield breakers in long, drawn out fights.  Especially up against a sufficient number of anti-fighter fighters or a decent PD screen.

At the end of the fight, all the Xyphos ships are sitting at 100% fighter and the longbows are sitting at 30% (which means 18/0.3=60 seconds per Longbow respawn).  Since a Fury on Fury fight is a long one (tanky and maneuverable means they don't die easily), the attrition adds up.  Plus the shield piercing on the Ion beams which the Ion pulsars don't have leads to an early flame out and earlier death, which starts to snowball.  Also, sustained damage is important in this fight, and a single Heavy blaster does more than twice the sustained damage of an Ion pulsar once the missiles run out.

Without full information, it's hard to replicate what people are actually doing in campaign.  Officer and fleet skills, s-mods, weapon placement, etc.  Personally, I tend towards a pair of ion cannons (12 OP and 120 flux/second versus 32 OP for Xyphos + converted hangar) that have their EMP doubled by Target Analysis Elite effect (1600 EMP per second), and slap on Safety Overrides with the extra OP and some shaved capacitors/vents.  With s-mods and officers skills, you can have a comfortable 2x Heavy Blaster + 2x Ion cannon sustained setup.  While in range, 1 Heavy blaster is 500 shield DPS.  A Sabot pod without missile specialization is 444 shield DPS while the missiles last.  But those setups are heavily dependent on s-mods, officer skills, and fleet skills to keep the fighting time up.
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Sutopia

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Re: Xyphos - The sim queen
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2021, 02:14:01 PM »

Um, why 39 vent using single ion pulser? Shouldn’t it go 39 cap instead?
It only has 200 sustained flux usage - much lower than a single HB
Your fit is no different from 0 cap 0 vent as it can rarely build any soft flux unless you’re also using amb or some other flux intensive small energy.

Converted hangar favors support fighters since they nearly never take losses.
However, they lose out to non-converted hangar fits most of the time thus voiding the comparison to long bows in the first place. Ah, I took the bait.

Edit: Can AI war set AI behavior? Ion pulser almost requires aggressive+ officers to make them not be cringe and get flux locked from beams.

Edit 2: In fact they may just lose to the exact same fit (single HB one) but replacing Xyphos with mining pod auxiliary as tons of mining pods making perfect distractions and allowing the ship itself having much more OP to work with. I’d argue mining pod is the best vanilla fighter for converted hangars.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2021, 02:35:27 PM by Sutopia »
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Xyphos - The sim queen
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2021, 02:54:32 PM »

Um, why 39 vent using single ion pulser? Shouldn’t it go 39 cap instead?
It only has 200 sustained flux usage - much lower than a single HB
Your fit is no different from 0 cap 0 vent as it can rarely build any soft flux unless you’re also using amb or some other flux intensive small energy.

Converted hangar favors support fighters since they nearly never take losses.
However, they lose out to non-converted hangar fits most of the time thus voiding the comparison to long bows in the first place. Ah, I took the bait.

Edit: Can AI war set AI behavior? Ion pulser almost requires aggressive+ officers to make them not be cringe and get flux locked from beams.

Sorry, typo, I meant 39 capacitor.  Too used to typing maxed vents. :) 

Yes, AI war can set AI behavior.  Not sure if it's been setup to handle the new skills yet though - haven't played with that.

AI were set to aggressive.  Here's a copy/paste from the files, which is less likely to have a human induced transcription error.  Note, the game wouldn't let me put 39 capacitors normally, so I fudged with flux coil adjunct which is effectively +9 caps.

fury_longbow.variant:
{
    "displayName": "Custom",
    "fluxCapacitors": 30,
    "fluxVents": 0,
    "hullId": "fury",
    "hullMods": [
        "converted_hangar",
        "frontemitter",
        "hardenedshieldemitter",
        "targetingunit",
      "fluxcoil"
    ],
    "permaMods": [],
    "sMods": [],
    "variantId": "fury_longbow",
    "weaponGroups": [
        {
            "autofire": false,
            "mode": "LINKED",
            "weapons": {"WS 001": "harpoonpod"}
        },
        {
            "autofire": false,
            "mode": "LINKED",
            "weapons": {"WS 002": "sabotpod"}
        },
        {
            "autofire": true,
            "mode": "LINKED",
            "weapons": {"WS 000": "ionpulser"}
        }
    ],
    "wings": ["longbow_wing"]
}
[close]

"Longbow Fleet setup:"

aquiredRound,refittedRound,defaultPersonality,variantID,shipName
1,1,aggressive,fury_longbow,
1,1,aggressive,fury_longbow,
1,1,aggressive,fury_longbow,
1,1,aggressive,fury_longbow,
1,1,aggressive,fury_longbow,
1,1,aggressive,fury_longbow,
1,1,aggressive,fury_longbow,
1,1,aggressive,fury_longbow,
1,1,aggressive,fury_longbow,
1,1,aggressive,fury_longbow,
[close]

"fury_xyphos.variant"
{
    "displayName": "Custom",
    "fluxCapacitors": 21,
    "fluxVents": 19,
    "hullId": "fury",
    "hullMods": [
        "converted_hangar",
        "frontemitter",
        "hardenedshieldemitter",
        "targetingunit"
    ],
    "permaMods": [],
    "sMods": [],
    "variantId": "fury_xyphos",
    "weaponGroups": [
        {
            "autofire": false,
            "mode": "LINKED",
            "weapons": {
                "WS 001": "sabotpod",
                "WS 002": "sabotpod"
            }
        },
        {
            "autofire": true,
            "mode": "LINKED",
            "weapons": {"WS 000": "heavyblaster"}
        }
    ],
    "wings": ["xyphos_wing"]
}
[close]

"Xyphos fleet setup"
aquiredRound,refittedRound,defaultPersonality,variantID,shipName
1,1,aggressive,fury_xyphos,
1,1,aggressive,fury_xyphos,
1,1,aggressive,fury_xyphos,
1,1,aggressive,fury_xyphos,
1,1,aggressive,fury_xyphos,
1,1,aggressive,fury_xyphos,
1,1,aggressive,fury_xyphos,
1,1,aggressive,fury_xyphos,
1,1,aggressive,fury_xyphos,
1,1,aggressive,fury_xyphos,
[close]
« Last Edit: July 12, 2021, 02:57:27 PM by Hiruma Kai »
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Retry

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Re: Xyphos - The sim queen
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2021, 03:28:20 PM »

First of all, it doesn't benefit from ITU or DTC.
Do you want 1800 range Xyphos Swarm shenanigans?  Because that's how you get 1800 range Xyphos Swarm shenanigans.
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Sutopia

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Re: Xyphos - The sim queen
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2021, 03:28:57 PM »

Honestly I don’t know what we’re discussing about anymore.

The original statement was about Xyphos not good in any scenarios as there’s always something better.
So far there are two challengers: Xyphos Odyssey and C_Xyphos Fury, the later is dedicated for Remnant farming.
I have not commented on the former atm. Uh, not until this reply.
For the latter I think all I need to do is use a non-converted hangar fit in campaign that do better to beat the argument. A fury vs fury fit proves nothing as it’s not the same as the use case the challenger is arguing for. The reason I brought up long bow is due to Odyssey - I tried making a good Xyphos Odyssey fit but always find long bow with the exact same fit superior to Xyphos, thus made the bold assumption that converted hangar will be the same - it’s not the same due to the loss of speed and increased damage taken. I also did not account for shield sizes - Odyssey obviously has a much better coverage to protect long bows.

All I need to do now is prove that converted hangar cringe?
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Sutopia

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Re: Xyphos - The sim queen
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2021, 03:30:47 PM »

First of all, it doesn't benefit from ITU or DTC.
Do you want 1800 range Xyphos Swarm shenanigans?  Because that's how you get 1800 range Xyphos Swarm shenanigans.

I tried a Legion with 6 1800 ranged Xyphos shenanigans (No s mod though) - and it cannot beat a sim maelstrom :(
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Xyphos - The sim queen
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2021, 04:03:09 PM »

Honestly I don’t know what we’re discussing about anymore.

The original statement was about Xyphos not good in any scenarios as there’s always something better.
So far there are two challengers: Xyphos Odyssey and C_Xyphos Fury, the later is dedicated for Remnant farming.
I have not commented on the former atm. Uh, not until this reply.
For the latter I think all I need to do is use a non-converted hangar fit in campaign that do better to beat the argument. A fury vs fury fit proves nothing as it’s not the same as the use case the challenger is arguing for. The reason I brought up long bow is due to Odyssey - I tried making a good Xyphos Odyssey fit but always find long bow with the exact same fit superior to Xyphos, thus made the bold assumption that converted hangar will be the same - it’s not the same due to the loss of speed and increased damage taken. I also did not account for shield sizes - Odyssey obviously has a much better coverage to protect long bows.

All I need to do now is prove that converted hangar cringe?

I will point out I did mention putting converted hangar on low tech front line ships like Enforcers and Onslaughts as well, not just Furies, to add some significant ion damage into the mix when you can't just stick an ion cannon or ion pulsar on.

As for the testing scenario, I don't know how off hand to setup a mission replicating an Ordo and full fleet skills for both sides, and well, I don't feel like doing save game editing, using mod commands to poof the fleet into existence, or actually running the fights.  A straight up head to head on an even playing field I can setup in 1 minute with a text editor and let play out in the background and come back to it once it's done.

I admit, I'll be interested in hearing your repeatable methodology for in campaign testing.  Although, the existence of something better doesn't necessarily mean everything less effective is pointless or useless.  I don't feel like the fact that I can beat a triple Radiant Ordo with a solo Doom necessarily invalidates every other ship and weapon in the game.

Maybe a better way to phrase the question is to phrase it in terms of an action.  Do you want to see something changed in the game to make the Xyphos balanced with something else?  I would not doubt you if you said that a safety override setup is going to do better than a converted hangar setup, for example.  But I think that's probably true of many wings you might put into that converted hangar, and speaks more towards the balance of safety overrides.
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Lucky33

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Re: Xyphos - The sim queen
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2021, 04:08:38 PM »

it's Xyphos + sabot pods as a combination that works so well. So it already has anti-shield, what it lacks is anti-weapon (which is what Xyphos provides)

It is not about Xyphos really. Fury has one of the best flux density per DP. It is like small Radiant. Sabots provide flux free anti shield damage, boosting ship's efficiency even further. It also has anti-weapon capabilities since it has EMP damage component. Xyphos does not provide much to the mix. Not for their cost.
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Sutopia

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Re: Xyphos - The sim queen
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2021, 04:40:03 PM »

Maybe a better way to phrase the question is to phrase it in terms of an action.  Do you want to see something changed in the game to make the Xyphos balanced with something else?  I would not doubt you if you said that a safety override setup is going to do better than a converted hangar setup, for example.  But I think that's probably true of many wings you might put into that converted hangar, and speaks more towards the balance of safety overrides.
Then it would become a suggestion thread not a GD.

Xyphos lies in an extremely odd position where it has the weapon with 1200 range. Not long enough to play kite but weird to play CQC. It’s simply something not made for min-maxing but this game is all about min-maxing.
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Amoebka

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Re: Xyphos - The sim queen
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2021, 04:44:38 PM »

The main and only benefit of Xyphos is the fact that it's the only fighter that's glued to its carrier (inb4 mining pods). Often you want a fighter wing on your warship just to provide PD, and Xyphos is the only real option. You would think Wasp/Spark/Longbow are better, but in reality the braindamaged AI will simply send them across the map into enemy flak at the first opportunity. With Xyphos, it CAN'T suicide the wing, so it actually does the job you want it to do - provide PD for the mothership.
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Sutopia

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Re: Xyphos - The sim queen
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2021, 07:12:47 PM »

Quote from: Hiruma
So I find something interesting
The Xypohs can deter even reckless AI from closing in - the non-Xyphos side would simply get ganged on regardless of AI assigned.
However, if you simply assign a full assault on the non-Xyphos side and just aggressive officer:


fury_pog.variant
{
    "displayName": "Pog",
    "fluxCapacitors": 21,
    "fluxVents": 30,
    "hullId": "fury",
    "hullMods": [
        "converted_hangar",
        "frontemitter",
      "hardenedshieldemitter",
      "targetingunit",
    ],
    "permaMods": [],
    "sMods": [],
    "variantId": "fury_pog",
    "weaponGroups": [
        {
            "autofire": false,
            "mode": "LINKED",
            "weapons": {
                "WS 001": "sabotpod",
                "WS 002": "sabotpod"
            }
        },
        {
            "autofire": true,
            "mode": "LINKED",
            "weapons": {
                "WS 000": "heavyblaster",
                "WS 003": "ioncannon",
                "WS 004": "ioncannon"
            }
        }
    ],
    "wings": ["mining_drone_wing"]
}
[close]

So do I get to claim mining pod is the best fighter?

Edit: tested the same for the following fit
fury_longbow.variant
{
    "displayName": "Custom",
    "fluxCapacitors": 19,
    "fluxVents": 20,
    "hullId": "fury",
    "hullMods": [
        "converted_hangar",
        "frontemitter",
      "hardenedshieldemitter",
      "targetingunit",
    ],
    "permaMods": [],
    "sMods": [],
    "variantId": "fury_longbow",
    "weaponGroups": [
        {
            "autofire": false,
            "mode": "LINKED",
            "weapons": {
            "WS 001": "sabotpod",
            "WS 002": "sabotpod"
         }
        },
        {
            "autofire": true,
            "mode": "LINKED",
            "weapons": {"WS 000": "heavyblaster"}
        }
    ],
    "wings": ["longbow_wing"]
}
[close]
By assigning full assault the long bow side is either getting a close match (6-8 / 8-6) or a crushing victory if the initial engagement went well.

I wonder if Xyphos has similar deterring effect against remnants - let me assign the impossible fearless personality and give it a try.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2021, 07:58:34 PM by Sutopia »
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Xyphos - The sim queen
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2021, 07:56:22 PM »

Quote from: Hiruma
So I find something interesting
The Xypohs can deter even reckless AI from closing in - the non-Xyphos side would simply get ganged on regardless of AI assigned.
However, if you simply assign a full assault on the non-Xyphos side and just aggressive officer:

So do I get to claim mining pod is the best fighter?

Well, that tells us that reckless and full assault AI with mining pods is better than aggressive AI with Xyphos.

So I used your POG file, and stuck it into AI battles, and set the timeout to 10 seconds (at timeout all ships are set to reckless and orders are changed to full assault for both sides).

"I edited the last line of round_data.csv to be"
1,TRUE,13,1,FALSE,FALSE,TRUE,TRUE,FALSE,TRUE,FALSE,TRUE,10,FALSE,TRUE,TRUE,400000,200000,FALSE,1000,5,FALSE,15,5,4,3,2,1,2,2,1,1,0
[close]

Ran the fight three times.  One time the POG Mining Pods won with 6 losses, and the other two the Xyphos won with 4 losses and 7 losses. 

So what I think that shows is that the AI aggression level and orders is more important than the fitting differences between Mining Pods and Xyphos, and that when using the same level of AI aggression Mining Pods and Xyphos are pretty close to balanced.  The extra vents and caps the Mining Pods allow for is counter balanced by the shield piercing Ion beams shutting down weapons and engines before the shields actually flux out. 

The way it breaks one way or the other looks highly dependent on who gets the first kill and starts to snowball.

[attachment deleted by admin]
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