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Author Topic: Odyssey shield radius is too large  (Read 2346 times)

Sutopia

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Odyssey shield radius is too large
« on: June 23, 2021, 12:44:23 PM »

Adding the fact that its large turrets are far back there it makes odyssey naturally outranged by just about any capital. Is there a particular reason why odyssey is using an obviously oversized shield?
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Amoebka

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Re: Odyssey shield radius is too large
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2021, 09:37:22 PM »

Is there a particular reason why odyssey is using an obviously oversized shield?

If you bonk into someone with your shield down and then raise it at just the right moment, fun stuff happens. Larger radius makes it easier to time.
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robepriority

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Re: Odyssey shield radius is too large
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2021, 09:42:42 PM »

It's a broadsider, isn't it?

intrinsic_parity

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Re: Odyssey shield radius is too large
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2021, 09:49:50 PM »

The radius is large because the shield is circular and has to go around the front of the ship. It seems larger for the ship because it is so long and narrow, but it needs to be that large to work in the forward position.
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Sutopia

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Re: Odyssey shield radius is too large
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2021, 08:06:42 AM »

Is there a particular reason why odyssey is using an obviously oversized shield?

If you bonk into someone with your shield down and then raise it at just the right moment, fun stuff happens. Larger radius makes it easier to time.

You mean, easier to time the shield to phase right into enemy hull? I have never thought of that! So Odyssey is indeed made for ramming and exploiting hitbox? I don’t believe so.

The radius is large because the shield is circular and has to go around the front of the ship. It seems larger for the ship because it is so long and narrow, but it needs to be that large to work in the forward position.
I don’t think you have ever used an Odyssey and don’t know what you’re talking about at all.
The Odyssey has an obvious gap between its shield and hull in the head and tail. Comparing it with Maelstrom from Diable Avionics it will be extremely obvious, and the huge gap plus the terrible turret layout often put Odyssey outranged by any capital because enemy can hit its shield at much longer range than it can to enemies. It’s almost required to use advanced optics if it wants to stand a chance, or just become a big shrike using autopulse and over extend to death. The only saving grace is the fighter bay providing assist but Xyphos perform terribly even with mod assistance so it’s better off back to long bow spam.

To sum it up, the oversized shield puts Odyssey in a terrible place, and overcharging it with 45DP (more than most capitals) not doing good enough job. If I want to hunt down small stuff, Aurora does a much better job at much cheaper price and more reliably.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Odyssey shield radius is too large
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2021, 10:20:13 AM »

The radius is large because the shield is circular and has to go around the front of the ship. It seems larger for the ship because it is so long and narrow, but it needs to be that large to work in the forward position.
I don’t think you have ever used an Odyssey and don’t know what you’re talking about at all.
The Odyssey has an obvious gap between its shield and hull in the head and tail. Comparing it with Maelstrom from Diable Avionics it will be extremely obvious, and the huge gap plus the terrible turret layout often put Odyssey outranged by any capital because enemy can hit its shield at much longer range than it can to enemies. It’s almost required to use advanced optics if it wants to stand a chance, or just become a big shrike using autopulse and over extend to death. The only saving grace is the fighter bay providing assist but Xyphos perform terribly even with mod assistance so it’s better off back to long bow spam.

To sum it up, the oversized shield puts Odyssey in a terrible place, and overcharging it with 45DP (more than most capitals) not doing good enough job. If I want to hunt down small stuff, Aurora does a much better job at much cheaper price and more reliably.
You're straight up wrong... The gap between the front of odyssey and the shield is almost identical to that on the paragon. It's not out of the ordinary, it just feels strange since the ship is long and narrow. It is a minor disadvantage in some situations, but you have way better mobility than any other capital that more than compensates.

Also, the odyssey might be the best non-phase playership and I have seen people talking about soloing ordos with it, so perhaps you are the one who hasn't used it enough? Odyssey is the capital I pilot the most out of any vanilla ship.
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Sutopia

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Re: Odyssey shield radius is too large
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2021, 02:33:25 PM »

The radius is large because the shield is circular and has to go around the front of the ship. It seems larger for the ship because it is so long and narrow, but it needs to be that large to work in the forward position.
I don’t think you have ever used an Odyssey and don’t know what you’re talking about at all.
The Odyssey has an obvious gap between its shield and hull in the head and tail. Comparing it with Maelstrom from Diable Avionics it will be extremely obvious, and the huge gap plus the terrible turret layout often put Odyssey outranged by any capital because enemy can hit its shield at much longer range than it can to enemies. It’s almost required to use advanced optics if it wants to stand a chance, or just become a big shrike using autopulse and over extend to death. The only saving grace is the fighter bay providing assist but Xyphos perform terribly even with mod assistance so it’s better off back to long bow spam.

To sum it up, the oversized shield puts Odyssey in a terrible place, and overcharging it with 45DP (more than most capitals) not doing good enough job. If I want to hunt down small stuff, Aurora does a much better job at much cheaper price and more reliably.
You're straight up wrong... The gap between the front of odyssey and the shield is almost identical to that on the paragon. It's not out of the ordinary, it just feels strange since the ship is long and narrow. It is a minor disadvantage in some situations, but you have way better mobility than any other capital that more than compensates.

Also, the odyssey might be the best non-phase playership and I have seen people talking about soloing ordos with it, so perhaps you are the one who hasn't used it enough? Odyssey is the capital I pilot the most out of any vanilla ship.
I’m not wrong in terms of the disadvantage, it’s real. I was also referencing Maelstrom, no idea where paragon came from.

If a ship is only good as player ship its terribly wrong. Let’s use the infamous Doom as example, it does feel like a 35DP threat in AI hands, but it can be 350 in player hands. If the same principle were to apply to Odyssey it simply does not worth 45 for all its drawbacks, on top of over-coward AI in current version.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Odyssey shield radius is too large
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2021, 02:36:34 PM »

Odyssey has been shown many times to be great in AI hands.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Odyssey shield radius is too large
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2021, 02:46:40 PM »

I’m not wrong in terms of the disadvantage, it’s real. I was also referencing Maelstrom, no idea where paragon came from.
It's real... and minor. You claimed it was so significant that the ship wasn't worth 45 DP. Paragon is a vanilla ship that no one is complaining about. I referenced it to demonstrate that the shield gap is not abnormal for a capital ship and the shield radius is what it is to maintain the normal vanilla gap between shields and hull for capital ships when in the forward position. Onslaught and conquest also have similar shield gaps. Conquest actually has similar issues due to it also being fairly long and narrow, but the issue is not enough that the ships are bad just because of it... The ship is fine, and the AI is decent at using it, you just need a sufficiently agressive captain and a decent loadout. In player hands it is probably the best vanilla capital ship.
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Sutopia

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Re: Odyssey shield radius is too large
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2021, 03:07:48 PM »

I’m not wrong in terms of the disadvantage, it’s real. I was also referencing Maelstrom, no idea where paragon came from.
It's real... and minor. You claimed it was so significant that the ship wasn't worth 45 DP. Paragon is a vanilla ship that no one is complaining about. I referenced it to demonstrate that the shield gap is not abnormal for a capital ship and the shield radius is what it is to maintain the normal vanilla gap between shields and hull for capital ships when in the forward position. Onslaught and conquest also have similar shield gaps. Conquest actually has similar issues due to it also being fairly long and narrow, but the issue is not enough that the ships are bad just because of it... The ship is fine, and the AI is decent at using it, you just need a sufficiently agressive captain and a decent loadout. In player hands it is probably the best vanilla capital ship.

Paragon has head hard points, so does onslaught. Conquest does have similar issue but maneuverable jet is just much more reliable in AI hands than plasma yeet. For AI I prefer conquest over odyssey because two large missile and ballistic is just solid. Odyssey relies on its fighters to be competitive and fighter control is like herding cats...

Again, my argument doesn’t care about player affecting its performance, as that’s what makes the game fun and rewarding.
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IonDragonX

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Re: Odyssey shield radius is too large
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2021, 05:41:33 PM »

The radius is large because the shield is circular and has to go around the front of the ship.
You know, if shields were given 2 foci instead of 1 center, you could really get creative with elliptical shields!
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Odyssey shield radius is too large
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2021, 05:52:25 PM »

Again, my argument doesn’t care about player affecting its performance, as that’s what makes the game fun and rewarding.
What is fun and rewarding is extremely subjective. The fact that you don't care about player piloted performance doesn't mean that it doesn't matter. Some players mostly care about piloting and don't care as much about their fleet. It's totally ok for there to be some ships that the AI is not great at using but are very powerful in player hands, just like it's totally ok that there are some ships that are solid AI ships but are not very fun to pilot.
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robepriority

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Re: Odyssey shield radius is too large
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2021, 06:22:57 PM »

I really like the front two medium missile mounts on the oddy compared to the conquest. Lets me put sabots for brawling. Not to mention that the energy larges  allow for omega weapons.

The AI adopts a 20-25 degree angle that attempts to compensate for the broadsiding turret and shield placement, and the sabot pods are the one weapon that can reconcile that with it's brawling ship system.

IMO it's broken when pairing it with longbows, but I feel like that's the fault of the sabot + .95 missile skill/hullmod buff than the odyseey itself.

Vanshilar

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Re: Odyssey shield radius is too large
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2021, 08:06:28 PM »

I don’t think you have ever used an Odyssey and don’t know what you’re talking about at all.
The Odyssey has an obvious gap between its shield and hull in the head and tail. Comparing it with Maelstrom from Diable Avionics it will be extremely obvious, and the huge gap plus the terrible turret layout often put Odyssey outranged by any capital because enemy can hit its shield at much longer range than it can to enemies. It’s almost required to use advanced optics if it wants to stand a chance, or just become a big shrike using autopulse and over extend to death. The only saving grace is the fighter bay providing assist but Xyphos perform terribly even with mod assistance so it’s better off back to long bow spam.

To sum it up, the oversized shield puts Odyssey in a terrible place, and overcharging it with 45DP (more than most capitals) not doing good enough job. If I want to hunt down small stuff, Aurora does a much better job at much cheaper price and more reliably.

Nope it's because shields have to be circular, regardless of ship shape. Other "long and skinny" ships like the Aurora and the Valkyrie also have a pretty noticeably larger shield area compared with the ship's size. The shields are typically roughly 20-50% larger than the length of the ship, and the Odyssey at 39% is higher than average but not excessively so. Some also seem to be bigger than usual for thematic reasons I believe; for example, the Paragon's shields are the same size as the Odyssey's (radius of 270), despite it being about 8% shorter; so the Paragon's shield radius should've been 243 instead of 270 proportionally speaking, to match the Odyssey's. The Aurora, despite being less than 2/3 the length of the Odyssey, has a spacing (between the shield and the front of the ship) that's around 89% that of the Odyssey, so it's actually proportionally a worse offender in this regard as well. (For both the Paragon and the Aurora, the shields are over 50% larger than the length of the ship. The Apogee as well.) It *seems* like high-tech shields are usually bigger proportionally, but this is not always the case.

Sure mods can set their shield radius to whatever they want, it's just a number in the ship file. Maybe some enterprising mod author has also tried making the shield radius smaller than parts of the ship (so that the nose and tail extend outside the bubble of the shields), who knows. Mod ships aren't a good metric for what vanilla ships "should" be though, it's the other way around -- if the Maelstrom's is noticeably smaller, then it means that the shield radius for the Maelstrom may be too small compared with other ships.

If you're complaining about having to use advanced optics, that has little to do with the shield bubble and more to do with the fact that the large turrets are closer to the center of the ship, rather than at its boundaries. Even if you reduce the shield bubble to be 20% larger than the length of the ship (matching the Atlas, for example -- which, as a freighter, makes sense thematically that the shields are barely bigger than the ship), the shields would be smaller only by around 30 units, compared with the 200 units that advanced optics provides. The Radiant for example has a shield spacing that's even larger than the Odyssey's, despite being only 78% the length, but its large weapon mounts are in the nose instead. The shield spacing (at the nose) for the Paragon is over 30% larger than that of the Odyssey, but it also has large mounts at the nose, farther away from the center of the ship. So if the Odyssey's large mounts have a lack of "reach", it has little to do with the shield size.

Edit: The Maelstrom's shield bubble is only 16% bigger than its length, which is far below what's typical for vanilla ships. Probably because it's a very long and very skinny ship, but it's up to the mod author.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2021, 08:22:57 PM by Vanshilar »
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Amoebka

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Re: Odyssey shield radius is too large
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2021, 04:24:37 AM »

Instead of writing long posts, can we all agree that Odyssey is complete garbage and needs more buffs? I use this capital more than any other (which has nothing to do with its performance, mind you), so I can tell. High-tech gets no love unless it's phase ships, smh. Alex, please.
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