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[Schwartz]

Currently they are at the "dud" end of the skill stick. I'm also for better fighter controls and making carriers worthwhile again. Maybe, if the skills aren't getting better, carriers could be given dedicated fighter OP and generally get an OP bump. Then the weaker fighter skills might actually synergize with a meta that leaves room to use them.

[Megas]

Carriers need to be useful enough to use without skills.  Currently, Expanded Deck Crew alone is not enough to make carriers viable late in the game.  Without skills, carriers are best retired or abandoned after player is done killing pirates in battles small enough to not spawn objectives.

If fighters as a whole will remain weak (not unlike Pilums), then support for warship-lite loadouts (with max vents, ITU, and enough assault weapons in some mounts, regardless of fighter choice) like before 0.8a needs to make a comeback.

It would be nice if Expanded Deck Crew became the baseline and the hullmod removed.  Currently, despite being only 40% as powerful as last release, it is still a must-have OP tax on a carrier, because unskilled fighters still die off too quickly with Expanded Deck Crew.

Not every ship is meant to be a brawler. Dedicated carriers have AI programmed to stay way out of enemy gun range, for example, Astrals and Drover.

I do not mind default AI keeping its distance, but I miss the old warship-lite loadouts pre-0.8a carriers had.  Also, warship-lite loadouts were useful for bigger carriers to shoot down small enemy ships that threaten it (despite carrier trying to hide away from the main battle).  In the old days, Heron with warship-lite loadout could kill two enemy frigates or an Enforcer, and Astral could blow up an enemy cruiser.  Today, if my carriers get caught by an enemy ship (and cannot outrun the enemy), it will die because it has no significant weapons to defend itself (because too much OP went to good fighters and Expanded Deck Crew).

If carriers do not have enough OP left to support guns, then mounts are pointless on them, and they should have none like the Phantom and Revenant because too many empty mounts on the ship makes it very ugly.

[Helldiver]

This isn't about carrier balance though, it's about control over fighters (or current lack thereof). Carrier balance can be its own discussion in another thread IMO.

[Morrokain]

If this suggestion were to be adopted, what hotkeys would be used for individual commands?

"z" currently sends wings to attack and regroup. It generally relies on having a target selected ("r") whether that is a ship or an enemy wing. You can just send them off without a target but that causes a lack of cohesion at times.

I don't think the cone idea from the OP is very practical, but a hotkey to cycle through wings by type ("shift-z" maybe?) that would allow the player to set several targets at once would be nice.

Then, for added nuance, a couple additional commands could be added that would alter the behavior of the strike when pressing "z" on a target. Something like "target engines", "side strike" or "coordinated strike" (wings wait for full member capacity before proceeding with the strike wave) would probably be useful. These commands could be assigned from the tactical screen or, alternatively, "shift-r" could cycle through the commands before "z" is pressed. The reasoning for this is that having to go to the tactical screen each time would most likely get tedious.

Of course, the AI would need at least a cursory understanding of when to use what command and have the ability to separate out strikes as well.

I think this would be time consuming and a bit difficult to implement in a way that feels right, but I agree that it would really solidify the carrier playstyle as a unique and fun way to play the game. The question is how worth it the work would be at this stage of development? I'd guess it would more be in the realm of "future expansion" then pre-1.0.

[Helldiver]

If this suggestion were to be adopted, what hotkeys would be used for individual commands?

"z" currently sends wings to attack and regroup. It generally relies on having a target selected ("r") whether that is a ship or an enemy wing. You can just send them off without a target but that causes a lack of cohesion at times.

I don't think the cone idea from the OP is very practical, but a hotkey to cycle through wings by type ("shift-z" maybe?) that would allow the player to set several targets at once would be nice.

Then, for added nuance, a couple additional commands could be added that would alter the behavior of the strike when pressing "z" on a target. Something like "target engines", "side strike" or "coordinated strike" (wings wait for full member capacity before proceeding with the strike wave) would probably be useful. These commands could be assigned from the tactical screen or, alternatively, "shift-r" could cycle through the commands before "z" is pressed. The reasoning for this is that having to go to the tactical screen each time would most likely get tedious.

Of course, the AI would need at least a cursory understanding of when to use what command and have the ability to separate out strikes as well.

I think this would be time consuming and a bit difficult to implement in a way that feels right, but I agree that it would really solidify the carrier playstyle as a unique and fun way to play the game. The question is how worth it the work would be at this stage of development? I'd guess it would more be in the realm of "future expansion" then pre-1.0.

I don't think that anything that complicated or time-consuming to implement would be needed.

Even just making fighter wings selectable separately like weapon groups (with alt+number) and having the ability to click locations in addition to clicking friendly/enemy ships would be enough to do most of that and make a massive difference.
As long as you're able to target a location on the battlefield, that already achieves "side strike" or "engine strike" - you click a location to the side or behind an enemy ship then target the ship for attack.

I'm not advocating for complex mechanics, rather, simple changes that can be used by players to do something more complex. Being able to target a location on the field for a given fighter wing is simple, but can achieve a lot.

[Sutopia]

If this suggestion were to be adopted, what hotkeys would be used for individual commands?

"z" currently sends wings to attack and regroup. It generally relies on having a target selected ("r") whether that is a ship or an enemy wing. You can just send them off without a target but that causes a lack of cohesion at times.

I don't think the cone idea from the OP is very practical, but a hotkey to cycle through wings by type ("shift-z" maybe?) that would allow the player to set several targets at once would be nice.

Then, for added nuance, a couple additional commands could be added that would alter the behavior of the strike when pressing "z" on a target. Something like "target engines", "side strike" or "coordinated strike" (wings wait for full member capacity before proceeding with the strike wave) would probably be useful. These commands could be assigned from the tactical screen or, alternatively, "shift-r" could cycle through the commands before "z" is pressed. The reasoning for this is that having to go to the tactical screen each time would most likely get tedious.

Of course, the AI would need at least a cursory understanding of when to use what command and have the ability to separate out strikes as well.

I think this would be time consuming and a bit difficult to implement in a way that feels right, but I agree that it would really solidify the carrier playstyle as a unique and fun way to play the game. The question is how worth it the work would be at this stage of development? I'd guess it would more be in the realm of "future expansion" then pre-1.0.

I don't think that anything that complicated or time-consuming to implement would be needed.

Even just making fighter wings selectable separately like weapon groups (with alt+number) and having the ability to click locations in addition to clicking friendly/enemy ships would be enough to do most of that and make a massive difference.
As long as you're able to target a location on the battlefield, that already achieves "side strike" or "engine strike" - you click a location to the side or behind an enemy ship then target the ship for attack.

I'm not advocating for complex mechanics, rather, simple changes that can be used by players to do something more complex. Being able to target a location on the field for a given fighter wing is simple, but can achieve a lot.

It's not quite going to work tbh.

1. Guided missile bombers are trigger happy and would happily drop their payload as soon as something is in range
2. Non-guided missile bombers may be fine or may be completely not fine since they may not be able to anticipate your intended target and adjust their vector accordingly. They simply refuse to drop bomb until perfectly lined up with target and it may waste a lot of time or even overshooting the target due to low agility of bombers.
3. Fighters don't really care since they swarm enemy and attack from all directions anyways.

[Helldiver]

It's not quite going to work tbh.

1. Guided missile bombers are trigger happy and would happily drop their payload as soon as something is in range
2. Non-guided missile bombers may be fine or may be completely not fine since they may not be able to anticipate your intended target and adjust their vector accordingly. They simply refuse to drop bomb until perfectly lined up with target and it may waste a lot of time or even overshooting the target due to low agility of bombers.
3. Fighters don't really care since they swarm enemy and attack from all directions anyways.

Who's saying that bombers would attack when given a move order? They wouldn't launch their payload less a ship is targeted. If the player is giving move orders, it's also up to them to give bombers space to make their run (trying to flank by putting the move order right next to the target wouldn't work well - same as in any other game).

"Fighter" fighters swarming is fine since it's how they fight anything. Separate wing controls and location targetting would still be highly beneficial even for them - sending fighters ahead of friendly ships to intercept bombers instead of waiting until they're already on top of allies, being able to send fighters to escort something while sending your bombers to attack a ship and all that.

[Megas]

I would like it if fighters could capture points like they used to in the pre-0.8a releases.  That was my #1 or #2 use of fighters back then.  Of course, most things were rare back then, unlike today when endgame player can produce everything short of automated ships and unique rewards.

Also gets tiring when a mostly carrier fleet with lone warship causes most fighters to escort your ship instead of attacking and killing the enemy (if your warship is not kissing the enemy), unlike pure carrier fleet that will send fighters to kill.  There is not enough CP to order fighter strikes against every last target.

[Sutopia]

It's not quite going to work tbh.

1. Guided missile bombers are trigger happy and would happily drop their payload as soon as something is in range
2. Non-guided missile bombers may be fine or may be completely not fine since they may not be able to anticipate your intended target and adjust their vector accordingly. They simply refuse to drop bomb until perfectly lined up with target and it may waste a lot of time or even overshooting the target due to low agility of bombers.
3. Fighters don't really care since they swarm enemy and attack from all directions anyways.

Who's saying that bombers would attack when given a move order? They wouldn't launch their payload less a ship is targeted. If the player is giving move orders, it's also up to them to give bombers space to make their run (trying to flank by putting the move order right next to the target wouldn't work well - same as in any other game).

"Fighter" fighters swarming is fine since it's how they fight anything. Separate wing controls and location targetting would still be highly beneficial even for them - sending fighters ahead of friendly ships to intercept bombers instead of waiting until they're already on top of allies, being able to send fighters to escort something while sending your bombers to attack a ship and all that.

Bomber already fire at random target when set to regroup you expect them to behave when moving?

[Helldiver]

Bomber already fire at random target when set to regroup you expect them to behave when moving?

Bombers can just be set to not launch payloads when given a move order.
In the first place I don't get why bombers launch payloads outside of an engage/attack order. As you write it messes with them when regrouped (especially bad for battlecarriers).

[KDR_11k]

I guess it could be doable by making fighter bays show up in the weapon groups and letting the ship's pilot direct them with mouse clicks (or even just by aiming the mouse, using clicks to make them shoot like manually controlled guns). Most dedicated carriers don't have the pilot doing manual weapon handling anyway. Would be tricky for a battlecarrier pilot to give out manual orders to fighters while also managing the main guns but a battlecarrier would probably just keep running the fighters on automatic when doing direct combat.

[Cik]

bump

also something needs to be done with piranhas. They were fine in .5 when everything was much slower but now they are enormous minimum 60 second setup negligible payoff missile that are slower and more vulnerable.