Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Doom system proposal  (Read 1290 times)

Sutopia

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1005
    • View Profile
Doom system proposal
« on: June 06, 2021, 11:56:46 AM »

Currently the mines can pop out of thin air and exploit omni shield AI like nobody’s business, I don’t think arbitrary number nerfs are going to do the work.
Instead, I think it deserves a brand new system.

Introducing: Transcend Device
During the system active period, allow doom to fire its ordnance from phase.
The device has limited charges and cannot recharge during phase.

This would make Doom play a bit more “fair” and no longer possible to exploit the omni shield behavior while still making it a dangerous opponent.
Logged


Since all my mods have poor reputation, I deem my efforts unworthy thus no more updates will be made.

Grievous69

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2993
    • View Profile
Re: Doom system proposal
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2021, 12:01:20 PM »

Might as well remove mines completely from the game because there'll always be some wacky stuff. Why not just nerf the system or I don't know, nerf the skill that made this whole problem an actual problem. I wouldn't want a unique ship system gone from the game just because things around it enabled it to be so annoying. Doom is way too slow to be worth its cost with your proposed system change.
Logged
Please don't take me too seriously.

Sutopia

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1005
    • View Profile
Re: Doom system proposal
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2021, 12:04:02 PM »

Might as well remove mines completely from the game because there'll always be some wacky stuff. Why not just nerf the system or I don't know, nerf the skill that made this whole problem an actual problem. I wouldn't want a unique ship system gone from the game just because things around it enabled it to be so annoying. Doom is way too slow to be worth its cost with your proposed system change.
Mines are still used by star fortress so it’s not removed.
Do remember phase is acting at 3x speed, so it’s tripled DPS like temporal shell but better.
Logged


Since all my mods have poor reputation, I deem my efforts unworthy thus no more updates will be made.

AcaMetis

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 484
    • View Profile
Re: Doom system proposal
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2021, 12:12:26 PM »

Quote
Do remember phase is acting at 3x speed, so it’s tripled DPS like temporal shell but better.
Only for as long as the system and the Doom's flux reserves (while phased) hold out, which I don't think would amount of much of anything in either case.

A better solution IMO, other than making Doom+skills not crazy overtuned and instead more in line with just Doom, would be to change the mines from HE to Energy damage (and maybe tinker with their damage numbers a bit, not sure). As far as I know that's what causes the omni shield problem in the first place, since ships want to try and take the HE damage on the shields and don't account for the quad+ anti-matter blasters staring them in the face.
Logged

Sutopia

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1005
    • View Profile
Re: Doom system proposal
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2021, 12:20:55 PM »

Quote
Do remember phase is acting at 3x speed, so it’s tripled DPS like temporal shell but better.
Only for as long as the system and the Doom's flux reserves (while phased) hold out, which I don't think would amount of much of anything in either case.

A better solution IMO, other than making Doom+skills not crazy overtuned and instead more in line with just Doom, would be to change the mines from HE to Energy damage (and maybe tinker with their damage numbers a bit, not sure). As far as I know that's what causes the omni shield problem in the first place, since ships want to try and take the HE damage on the shields and don't account for the quad+ anti-matter blasters staring them in the face.

I don’t think that fixes things as AI will still happily turn shield against it. The 2k base damage will scare AI regardless.
Logged


Since all my mods have poor reputation, I deem my efforts unworthy thus no more updates will be made.

Retry

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 420
    • View Profile
Re: Doom system proposal
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2021, 12:30:33 PM »

Quote
Do remember phase is acting at 3x speed, so it’s tripled DPS like temporal shell but better.
Only for as long as the system and the Doom's flux reserves (while phased) hold out, which I don't think would amount of much of anything in either case.

A better solution IMO, other than making Doom+skills not crazy overtuned and instead more in line with just Doom, would be to change the mines from HE to Energy damage (and maybe tinker with their damage numbers a bit, not sure). As far as I know that's what causes the omni shield problem in the first place, since ships want to try and take the HE damage on the shields and don't account for the quad+ anti-matter blasters staring them in the face.
That'd make the problem worse, not better.  The mines are 2k damage apiece which can tear apart armor effortlessly, so all energy damage would do is double shield damage.
Logged

SCC

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 4148
    • View Profile
Re: Doom system proposal
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2021, 02:02:21 PM »

2k energy damage is enough to tear through most armour, so that would be mostly a straight nerf.

Hmm... It seems I haven't explained in full my beef with mines yet. Let's get on with it, then.
  • Simplest complaint first, Mine Strike is as close to a direct damage ship system as it gets. You spawn 2000 HE damage bombs anywhere in the pretty wide radius instantly for mere 1000 flux a pop, on a ship that benefits from soft flux if anything, thanks to T2R.
  • Mines provide instant and very cheap flanking. No other ship can attack from two directions at the same time, except Doom. Even Hyperion or phase ships merely can quickly relocate to attack from an unexpected angle, but not straight up attack at the same time from two (or more) different directions.
  • Combined, this means that Doom is also great at crowd control (want to discourage enemy ships from coming your way? Just pop some mines between you and unwanted attention or behind them and watch them scramble) and dealing with fighters (big AoE, instant mine deployment and impact fuse means spawning mines on top of fighters either destroys or overloads them instantly), same fighters which incidentally are one of the better ways for dealing with phase ships... Just not this one. I've just heard that AI Dooms don't handle fighters well at all, this issue might not apply.
  • Other phase ships have to unphase and make themselves vulnerable to use their ship systems or attack, and Doom doesn't. Even better, the only way you can force Doom to stop it is to either wait it out, or bring a Harbinger as a hard counter and force Doom out of phase. Though, perhaps, this is more applicable to the player, since NPC Doom officers can make the mistake of not getting the Phase Mastery and Systems Expertise elited.
  • Finally, it also opens some avenues for abuse. First is the simple spawning of mines behind enemy ships - if they have omni shields, they will prioritise blocking the mines over anything else. A part of that might stem from mine's behaviour, which unlike every other missile in the game either moves away or strikes the shield. Mine does not and you either have to run it over, or it can stay near you for several seconds. The second scenario is desirable against AI, because it will prioritise it over your ship. If mine was moving, it wouldn't be a half bad decision (I mean, it IS 2k of HE damage, that hurts), but currently, they are just mean. The other abuse is comes from anti-fighter capability. You can drop a mine on a fighter to trip it instantly, right? What if a ship was nearby? It gets damage in an instant, unavoidable way. While AI isn't as good at doing this, it's still enough that mine strike was made less deadly to frigates and that currently it still makes Doom the deadliest human ship there is.

Mine Strike, as a ship system, is more fitting for a boss than Ziggurat's non-experimental motes, since motes don't deal damage and still have travel time. It isn't just strong, it outright skips over several mechanics regular ships have to deal with to fight.

CanaldoVoid

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 38
    • View Profile
Re: Doom system proposal
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2021, 05:55:25 PM »

What if instead of a cheesy AI confusing skill with zero counterplay it had something special instead?

For instance: A special weapon worth of the ship's name, something with a very long cooldown, like 2 dual cannons with 2x reaper damage that open up on the sides when you press F and take a long time to recharge or something like that?
Logged

Phenir

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 344
    • View Profile
Re: Doom system proposal
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2021, 11:07:31 PM »

What if you make mines more like a regular weapon? When you activate the system, it invisibly and instantly fires towards the crosshair and places a mine in front of the first enemy ship it encounters. If it doesn't encounter an enemy ship, it just places the mine at the crosshair like it currently does. Ignores debris and friendlies. You can't place mines on the opposite side of a ship but you could still cut off its retreat if you circle to the sides a bit or if it's running from one of your allies. If you wanted to surround a ship with mines, you'd have to get really close to it to be able to strafe around/through it that fast.
Logged

snicka

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 49
    • View Profile
Re: Doom system proposal
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2021, 12:34:05 AM »

I would also like to note another unique mine use - you can intercept hostile reaper missles from half map away with matrix reflexes.
Logged

CanaldoVoid

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 38
    • View Profile
Re: Doom system proposal
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2021, 04:06:23 AM »

I would also like to note another unique mine use - you can intercept hostile reaper missles from half map away with matrix reflexes.
Don't really need good reflexes, time slows down greatly under phase so those slow torps move REALLY slowly for a Doom.
You can intercept all sorts of attacks, completely clear the map off strikecraft, lower the shields of any AI ships at will, instantly erase anything smaller than a cruiser, take down the engines of any ships with frontal shields from any position in the map at will (or just blow them up with no reactions or exposition of oneself)

And that's not even getting into the part the Doom is good at, which is assassin style erasing enemy ships in a single attack, sometimes 2.
Logged

KDR_11k

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 666
    • View Profile
Re: Doom system proposal
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2021, 09:14:43 AM »

instant mine deployment and impact fuse means spawning mines on top of fighters

My first thought there would be that the mine spawns inert (or is "teleporting in") and is destroyed harmlessly if it collides with a ship or fighter within ~3 seconds?
Logged

Hiruma Kai

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 886
    • View Profile
Re: Doom system proposal
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2021, 03:18:59 PM »

My first thought there would be that the mine spawns inert (or is "teleporting in") and is destroyed harmlessly if it collides with a ship or fighter within ~3 seconds?

This is an interesting idea.  It certainly has me thinking about the interaction of mines with fighters.  Currently, you can drop mines far too close to fighters, and they trigger a detonation.  Also I sometimes feel like bombers in formation don't dodge mines, like ships do.

Simplest complaint first, Mine Strike is as close to a direct damage ship system as it gets. You spawn 2000 HE damage bombs anywhere in the pretty wide radius instantly for mere 1000 flux a pop, on a ship that benefits from soft flux if anything, thanks to T2R.

Not sure what you mean by an instant weapon?  Tachyon lance?  Paladin PD shooting over allies.  Xyphos Ion cannon?  These can strike instantly in a sense, and the later two over allies.  I mean, mines are clearly designed to give you a few second to react.  It is the fact that the AI doesn't react well is the problem.  If the AI handled mines better (do I have sufficient PD, and is the PD directed at the mines?  Don't bother shifting shield unless impact is imminent in that case).

The one situation where it is effectively instant is against fighters, as noted above.  However, in that case my suggestion would be to change mine mechanics to treat fighters as weapon projectiles or on a separate layer (like ships) instead of treating the like ships - given well, fighters don't seem to dodge mines well or at all, nor do mines respect the space around fighters.  So in the proposed new mine strike system, if a fighter runs into a mine, it's like the mine was shot down by PD and thus no explosion. Or simply no interaction with the fighter itself perhaps.  That would tend to make heavy fighters a natural counter to a Doom.

No other ship can attack from two directions at the same time, except Doom.

What about Salamanders?  Also I think you're indicating this is a problem in player hands, specifically.  A pile of frigates worth 35 DP has no problems flanking a ship.  Comparing to a single Hyperion isn't really fair given it costs 15 DP to deploy.  2 Hyperions can flank quite easily and still cheaper than a Doom in terms of deployment.

Combined, this means that Doom is also great at crowd control (want to discourage enemy ships from coming your way? Just pop some mines between you and unwanted attention or behind them and watch them scramble) and dealing with fighters (big AoE, instant mine deployment and impact fuse means spawning mines on top of fighters either destroys or overloads them instantly), same fighters which incidentally are one of the better ways for dealing with phase ships... Just not this one. I've just heard that AI Dooms don't handle fighters well at all, this issue might not apply.

This I agree is a problem.  I think one of the above suggestions could help bring the system in line, without having to overhaul it too much.  At the very least, respecting fighters in terms of mine placement like it respects ship space and put it farther out from said fighters so they have a chance to fire PD at it would help.  Sparks should be a counter to mines, not make mines even more effective by hovering around an escorted ship causing the mine to go boom early from fighter contact.  It also means the AI only needs to take into account movement on the ship layer to determine if mines are going to go off, potentially making AI handling of mines perhaps easier to improve, since it wouldn't have to worry about anything causing an early detonation except for a ship's contact with the mine.
Logged

intrinsic_parity

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3071
    • View Profile
Re: Doom system proposal
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2021, 03:48:28 PM »

For me the problem with doom is how many aspects of combat get completely circumvented. Phase mechanics already ignore a lot of the flux trading aspects of the game but the mines totally mess with the AI allowing you to further trivialize flux mechanics by entirely bypassing omni shields. The speed while cloaked trivializes the positioning aspect of the game: it doesn't matter where you go, you can almost always reposition before the enemy can do much (plus you have a ~2000 range sphere of influence with mines), and it doesn't matter if the non-phase enemies have mobility systems because you are just so much faster.

Imo it's ok to have something that is strong because it partially gets around one aspect of combat (and is balanced in other ways), but doom gets around a bunch of different aspects simultaneously and gets a bunch of built in efficient damage plus tons of AI manipulating tech. It's just too much.
Logged