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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed  (Read 9130 times)

Thaago

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2021, 04:15:08 PM »

Tempest is a fun change that I'm excited about tbh, even if it is a net power decrease. Speaking of 'balancing through fun', changing a flat damage bonus into 'your drones are now supercharged with flux lightning and become glowing torpedoes that shoot the whole way in' is just great.
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Arcagnello

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2021, 04:20:40 PM »

Tempest is a fun change that I'm excited about tbh, even if it is a net power decrease. Speaking of 'balancing through fun', changing a flat damage bonus into 'your drones are now supercharged with flux lightning and become glowing torpedoes that shoot the whole way in' is just great.

I hope someone makes a sound mod and has this play every time a Tempest engages the Terminator sequence on one of its drones.
Do it. Ludd Commands You!
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 04:22:44 PM by Arcagnello »
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Yunru

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2021, 04:24:25 PM »

Quote
My main concern if what all off "OP" stuff get hit by nerfbat, everything will come out like NightfallGemini said, game just become plain and boring.
We got a taste of that in this release, especially with carriers.
I still use them to good effect.
Sure the fleet-wide skills are... kinda pointless for a dedicated carrier fleet, but it doesn't negate what made them strong overall in the first place.

Locklave

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2021, 05:24:27 PM »

Buff everything else? Seriously? Don't nerf the 3-4 out of control ships buff the other 60+?

So I guess if one of those UP ships gets overbuffed we'll just buff everything again. Just engage in time consuming madness so people don't have to feel bad about their toys being brought in line.

This thread is not well reasoned at all. Everyone who is agreeing with the OP isn't bothering to think about the logic behind the suggestion.
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Deshara

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2021, 05:48:25 PM »

Buff everything else? Seriously? Don't nerf the 3-4 out of control ships buff the other 60+?

So I guess if one of those UP ships gets overbuffed we'll just buff everything again.

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NightfallGemini

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2021, 06:07:45 PM »

to clear up confusion, I'm not saying that everything is okay and that everything should be a hyperion or whatever the other arguments are, just that you need to have a very focused, salient example and definition of what counts as out-of-line. for instance, old hyperion endlessly kiting things was perhaps too strong for the player, but was obnoxious to fight against, so it was good hyperion got changed all around. if the doom is what we're talking about, I can agree the mines are in a similar spot.

tldr just be careful with the discourse because it can easily bite a game's trajectory squarely in the ass
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Megas

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2021, 06:48:22 PM »

The only ships I think are too powerful are Doom and maybe Afflictor, and only with combat skills.  I would say Radiant too if it was a human ship, but as a ship from an SNK boss faction, I would think the other Remnant ships are too weak (because they are more or less on par with the human ships) to be worthy of a purposefully overpowered (normally NPC-only) boss faction.
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BreenBB

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2021, 11:40:30 PM »

Buff everything else? Seriously? Don't nerf the 3-4 out of control ships buff the other 60+?

Again, you see problem what some ships are more powerful, I don't see any problem, and don't see any reason to buff or nerf something. No need making every ship hyperactive (although I like that) and no need to turn all ships into slow and underpowered piece of junk. You see problem where is no problem, and you guys just hate the fun.

I heard alot from old players what balance in 0.6 versions was much better, but judging from changes from 091 to 095 it definitely a thing, balance wise game becomes less interesting with each update.

If you want OP stuff you can get that with mods.

The thing is what mods rarely doesn't offer that, just take mods like ORA, SCY, Diable Avionics and such, author hit them with nerfbat which is just removed any purpose of installing these mods, when ships is weaker than vanilla it gives to reason to use modded ships and I found myself using vanilla stuff instead, not too much of mods add stuff which on par with good vanilla ships, same goes with weapons, adding too much weak weapons not only gives no purpose when vanilla is better option, its nerf NPC's, because when game fits them they have more probability to get weak weapon instead of more powerful. And again, good ships made good not only with stat, right subsystem also is, a thing, Aurora Plasma Burn allows it both engage and disengage, and etc. I personally want more ships of Doom, Aurora, Paragon level stuff, not perfectly balanced(tm) ones.

And again considering what game become unstable if you add too much of faction mods, it forces to exclude all mods where stuff is weaker that vanilla.

That's the opposite of the design intent of tech levels in Starsector as written by the dev himself including in the very latest blog post. Tech levels are just alternate doctrines/design philosophies. A high-tech ship can be individually more powerful than a low-tech ship, but will pay that price elsewhere.

To quote : "The key thing is that high tech is not intended to be better than low tech, just a different way of doing things."

And made skill system which actually benefit High Tech more that Low Tech.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 11:50:06 PM by BreenBB »
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Arcagnello

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2021, 01:42:45 AM »

The only ships I think are too powerful are Doom and maybe Afflictor, and only with combat skills.  I would say Radiant too if it was a human ship, but as a ship from an SNK boss faction, I would think the other Remnant ships are too weak (because they are more or less on par with the human ships) to be worthy of a purposefully overpowered (normally NPC-only) boss faction.

Remnant ships are around 20% stronger than their overall Deployment Point cost would imply by design. They've got significantly better stats than their same-DP manned counterparts across the board minus a few cases in which the Ordinance Points and Top Speed of manned ships is slightly higher. You just don't really notice it all that much because even their correct Vanilla variants are terrible even before taking Autofit making them worse into account.

The only two ships you could call underpowered are the Lumen which only gets 4 small synergy turrets and the Fulgent that would be really strong if it had a missile focused skill but comes with High Energy focus instead, despite the fact said Remnant Destroyer comes with an absolutely atrocious 300 base flux dissipation while by comparison the Sunder, which has the same DP cost, gets 500.

The only Outlier that goes in the opposite direction is the Radiant. It should be worth 55-60 Deployment Points even accounting for the "20% rule" Remnants have but it still sits at a nonsensical 40 Deployment Points instead, the issue being exacerbated even more by the fact Radiants are more or less guaranteed to get an Alpha core officer which unlike a normal Human 6 Skill 2 Elite officer has 8 Elite Skills which boosts its actual combat prowess by over 100%, making the terrible Variants it comes with the only saving grace of the current iteration of the ship in Vanilla.

It's a ship that can be obtained and used by the player, therefore it should be in line with the faction it comes from in terms of DP effectiveness.


As for the OP of this discussion, I strongly disagree with the concept of never nerfing anything.
You can make strong arguments for alleviating nerfs that have butchered a good amount of playstiles like Safety Overrides getting a duct tape fix to not completely break the game, or reducing the maximum ECM nerf to only -10% only because Remnants and officer spam in general were abusing it, or the fact the Drover went from carrier god to "loafbread of uselessness" (on which Alex has commented on and is going to restore somewhat, judging from his comments).

This is game is a minmaxer's wet dream, it is therefore very, very easy to inadvertently buff something to godhood with just minor changes. It is however also a relatively simple task to identify overperforming ships in every patch, and those should be nerfed. It may rustle the jimmies of some people that got attached to said ships or it may be too big of a nerf (that you can justify alleviating and most likely have Alex act on good feedback given to him, since I'm pretty sure he reads everything on this forum) but it has to be done nevertheless to avoid power creep. The same applies to all weapons, hullmods and commander skills.

Accept it as reality and we can move on with more logical discussions  :P

Edit: sorry I noticed it just now what do you mean by
Quote
I would say Radiant too if it was a human ship, but as a ship from an SNK boss faction
?
Radiant IS Vanilla.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2021, 03:03:36 AM by Arcagnello »
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Killian

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2021, 03:31:43 AM »

Edit: sorry I noticed it just now what do you mean by
Quote
I would say Radiant too if it was a human ship, but as a ship from an SNK boss faction
?
Radiant IS Vanilla.

They're not saying that it isn't vanilla, I believe they're referring to the https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SNKBoss concept.
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Arcagnello

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2021, 04:44:01 AM »

Edit: sorry I noticed it just now what do you mean by
Quote
I would say Radiant too if it was a human ship, but as a ship from an SNK boss faction
?
Radiant IS Vanilla.

They're not saying that it isn't vanilla, I believe they're referring to the https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SNKBoss concept.

Oh, the more you know! Thanks for the free education, both of you  :)

That said, the hypothetical "SNK Boss" trait the Radiant used to have has definetly shifted over to the [Two Hyper-Redacted story elements] now.

Not to mention an actual SNK Boss would have a good vanilla variant that should not be getting abused by Autofit half the time. This particular bastardization of the Standard Vanilla Radiant (which you can see here)
Spoiler
Radiant-class Drone Battleship

Codex Entry
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Radiant's Stats (above) compared to a Paragon's (below)
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Overview
Here we go. I'm going to have to go a bit off the rails in criticizing Vanilla Game Balance as a premise: the Radiant Drone Battleship is a balancing abomination that should've been adressed as soon as 0.95 released. The Remnants as a whole were a lot easier to defeat back in the 0.91 days and further back in time, but now that not only Officer skills but also AI algorithms have been improved along all the other new balance mechanics, the Radiant is well deserving of 60 Deployment Points, and this is accounting for the fact that the ship would be worth 70 Deployment Points instead if it was not Remnant and purposefully undervalued.
This ship is currently only worth 40 Deployment pointsbut is able to fit a staggering amount of front facing firepower consisting of 2 large energy hardpoints, 1 large energy turret, 2 large synergy turrets, 4 medium synergy turrets and 4 small energy turrets, in addition to 1500 Armor, 10.000 hullpoints, a 0.6 ratio shield, massive flux capacity, a ship ability that belongs to a Frigate and a 99% chance to always have an Alpha Core Officer making every single stat I just showcased that much more overbearing.
Disabling/Destroying the enemy Radiant(s) when fighting a Remnant ordo will translate in you winning that battle. Failing to pressure and kill it/them because it starts teleporting away and/or because the rest of its allied rabid honeybadger friends get in the way will guarantee a harder battle with more allied casualties and maybe even a loss.
Vanilla Variants
1)Standard        Personal Rating: Wasted Large Weapon Mounts
Armament: 2 Autopulse Lasers (Linked), 2 Locusts (Alternating), 1 Paladin PD & 6 PD Lasers (linked), 4 Ion Beams (Linked), 4 IR Pulse Lasers (linked)
Hullmods: Integrated Targeting Unit, Expanded Magazines, Heavy Armor
9 Capacitors, 50 Vents

Without going into potential modifications to the Vanilla autofit, this is a textbook example of how to NOT set up a Radiant and it's the setup you wish for when fighting an Ordo. Heavy Armor is a 40OP dead weight unless it's integrated, Locust not only do pathetic damage to anything but weaksauce frigates but they also don't even have expanded missile racks, 4 Ion beams is overkill even for me and IR pulse lasers are as pointless as nipples on a breastplate.
[close]
has two Ion Pulsers and a Heavy Burst Laser in the 3 Energy Mounts
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Scorpixel

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2021, 05:57:44 AM »

What's with the fallacy that nerf=bad because it's a negative term?
Any game needs it's base state to be a balanced experience, a failure to do so is a failure of game design.
Unbalanced gameplay can be obtained through cheats/mods, and should not be expected of the main game outside dedicated modes/sliders/difficulties.

Players will naturally gravitate toward the most efficient gameplay, it is what a game has to work with, if the best strategy consist of sitting in a corner with a silenced sniper and abusing the enemy AI, everyone will do it eventually no matter how unfun to them.

And personal taste here, no not everyone wants ships to be zooming around like methed-up squirrels on ice, i like my ships with the momentum of a ship.
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Arcagnello

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #42 on: June 06, 2021, 06:08:33 AM »

What's with the fallacy that nerf=bad because it's a negative term?
Any game needs it's base state to be a balanced experience, a failure to do so is a failure of game design.
Unbalanced gameplay can be obtained through cheats/mods, and should not be expected of the main game outside dedicated modes/sliders/difficulties.

Players will naturally gravitate toward the most efficient gameplay, it is what a game has to work with, if the best strategy consist of sitting in a corner with a silenced sniper and abusing the enemy AI, everyone will do it eventually no matter how unfun to them.

And personal taste here, no not everyone wants ships to be zooming around like methed-up squirrels on ice, i like my ships with the momentum of a ship.

Amen to all of this!

Having even more ships give me an equal amount of per-DP performance with proper setup after a series of mirated buffs/nerfs would allow Starsector to provide an even better playing experience than it currently does.
Not to mention it's gotten signifincantly better already in the mere year and a half I've been playing it too!
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Megas

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #43 on: June 06, 2021, 06:37:10 AM »

It's a ship that can be obtained and used by the player, therefore it should be in line with the faction it comes from in terms of DP effectiveness.
Normally, no.  It requires Automated Ships to recover and use (and Radiant takes a huge CR hit for going over the DP limit), and unless player goes for Tech 10, he gives up Special Modifications for that.  I think having an SNK boss overpowered ship (that may have less than full CR) is a fair trade for Special Modifications.
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Lucky33

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #44 on: June 06, 2021, 06:41:42 AM »

What's with the fallacy that nerf=bad because it's a negative term?
Any game needs it's base state to be a balanced experience, a failure to do so is a failure of game design.
Unbalanced gameplay can be obtained through cheats/mods, and should not be expected of the main game outside dedicated modes/sliders/difficulties.

Players will naturally gravitate toward the most efficient gameplay, it is what a game has to work with, if the best strategy consist of sitting in a corner with a silenced sniper and abusing the enemy AI, everyone will do it eventually no matter how unfun to them.

And personal taste here, no not everyone wants ships to be zooming around like methed-up squirrels on ice, i like my ships with the momentum of a ship.

Late game is very time sensitive. While you are enjoying being momentous, your other ships are dying. It is all about those meth heads running in mobs and blowing stuff up. Players simply asking to get the means to deal with the situation. Prior to this player's fleets were ridiculously overpowered. Well, nobody likes being outgunned and outnumbered.
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